Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[sillls]

1. Yes. Exactly.

 

2. To keep you scavenging for more. If scopes are detachable you won’t care when finding a new one. But if they aren’t then you’ll be glad to get a new one every time you find one.

 

Ok thanks.

[Viktoriusiii]

2. To keep you scavenging for more. If scopes are detachable you won’t care when finding a new one. But if they aren’t then you’ll be glad to get a new one every time you find one.

 

Gameplay over realism eh?

With what do we attach these then? Nailgun? Superglue? Are we welding them on?

There has to be SOME reason why they aren't detachable.

I know I'm always very critizising... mostly because I don't think that positives need changing therefor no mention...

But if this is truely the only reason, then I might actually lose faith in TFPs.

 

My faith has wavered over the course of the alphas sometimes...

They have made questionable descicions... but they were never a real... philosophical problem.

They wanted more rpg elements and less spamcrafting... okay understandable...

 

They wanted a more streamline look of menus and windows... yeah okay... i get it...

 

but to put something in that makes NO sense for absolutly no other reason then "we are too lazy/stupid to figure out a better way of balancing it" is absolutly mental.

 

 

 

If this is temporary and will be changed when beta comes around... fine... I mean I still dislike the 6 step quality system... and this further illustrates the lack of progression... but if this stays... I might actually have to mod my game...

Immersion was always a big factor for me. But weapon attachments aren't "single use only" items... you can choose what you want... if you dont want them you sell them... or you can find attachments for different weapons.. (scopex4-pistol;scopex4-shotgun; ... and so on)

 

but not beeing able to remove attachments...

 

I'm very disappointed...

 

Change my mind!

 

 

 

... no please! change my mind! tell me I'm crazy and overlook something... tell me there is a better reason then "we aren't able to balance it better so we will break your immersion so you have to scavange even more"

 

Why not simply make the attachments rarer?

Its a super simple, non immersion breaking change. Why artificially create a problem where non exists?

[DUST2DEATH]

Why not wait until A17 is in everyones hands and then question whether the feature needs changing or not?

[Viktoriusiii]

because the logic is the point... not the gameplay.

I dont even doubt that gameplay doesn't suffer...

but my immersion will... if i have to sell my good sniper with x4 scope, because I have just found an x16 scope but i cant detach the previous modifications for some reason.

 

If there is an ingame reason for it... fine (maybe it gets destroyed depending on the quality or your weaponsmithing or something) but it sounded like a "gameplay first, excuse later" situation.

[varimathras]

Anyone knows if they implemented something or they will agains the players that use the duplication bug?

Its annoying to see new people joining to my server always and see them duplicating and lagging the server, I cant control 24hs our everyone, obviously I end up banning 2 or 3 of 6 new players.

There was a server manager that haded an anti-dup system but it was left with no updates lot of years ago.

[Tearstone]

Viktor is absolutely right. Immersion is part of gameplay as well as roleplay/RP, which is one of the big swinging selling points for this game.

 

Someone earlier questioned why I have made a few references to things that happen in the real world. This game is the closest I have found that matches my expectations of being in the scenario of a zombie apocalypse. Better than Rust or Day Z, Codename: Cure, H1Z!/Infestation, No More Room in Hell, or the Left 4 Dead series. Maybe Dead Island comes close. The Dead Rising Series isn't too bad, but a little ridiculous. This is gritty, and grounded somewhat realistically, at least without super complicated physics.

 

The weapons could be expanded. (.22lr or 5.56 mm calibers anyone?) Same goes for melee. But I think TFP devs have done a pretty good job with a wide selection. The mods added will make customization much more a thing. However, it makes no sense that you can't change out ane extended mag on a pistol. So I'm using a Glock with 20 round mag rather than a 12 or 10 round one. It's not like I just melted it down or left it on the side of the road. (Yes, I know the in game pistol is modeled off of a Beretta.)

 

So I put an extended mag tube on my shotgun. There's no reason I can't unscrew it, in the field no less, and put the old one back on.

 

I dunno, maybe I'm thinking of mods like attachments. Swapping out iron sights on RIS/picatinny rails with a holo sight, or a red dot sight, or an ACOG. And no that's not COD mentality. I'm a firearms enthusiast IRL. - Say you chopped down a shotgun into a sawed-off... cut the barrel down, cut the stock off, leaving just a curved pistol-grip type nib on the back end, I could see how that's hard to come back from without new parts. But that's just one example.

 

Mind you I'm not complaining, but I don't feel Viktor's point is invalid. Quite the opposite. When I tend to play, especially on SP, I tend to have a running sort of narrative in my head. I don't see the UI so much while I'm dealing with all the stuff in my storage and instead it's more like "Okay, all these need to go in that box... and those in that box. And that goes over by the forge." - But I can easily imagine that finding a newer, higher-tier shotgun, and not being able to strip the parts off of my old one, the upgrades I want to kepe, the mods... and put them on the new one would be jarring and disappointing. It then becomes "Oh... right.. game.. crap. Uhh... welll... Let's just open up the creative menu and suck out the mods I want."

 

It would still decently fun, but then it breaks expectations, and knocks people out some of that enjoyment. And some of the magic that the simulation creates. The immersion. The verisimilitude. The willing suspension of disbelief.

 

For some of us, many of us, that is a big part of the draw. A lot of loud wheels are squeaking here on the forums, and so that seems to be the loudest chorus of "this is awesome" or "this sucks". But for every 1 person making noise here, there's probably even 100 that aren't. AND, when 7D2D goes to Beta, and starts hitting public awareness again at large, there are going to be plenty of people that examine the game for immersion. Not just replay ability. Not level caps, or 'choice'.

 

At the end of the day it comes down to one question: Can, and do I, believe in the world The Fun Pimps are selling, and is it fun to be here?

 

The answer needs to be 'yes'. If it isn't the average Steam user is going to feel cheated. Fortunately for TFP, there are no refunds or returns on Steam these days, so people can't really vote with their money. They still get paid either way, so at the end of the day, they only have to make something that grabs people's attention enough to buy the game. After that, they've made their dough, DLC's or not.

 

 

I believe the balance, the fun, the immersion, and the replay come down to whether or not it succeeds. Balance, fun, and immersion I believe are the aspects Viktor is/was trying to address. I could be mistaken about that, and don't want to put words in his mouth. But I feel like we're in agreement on that.

[Roland]

If this is temporary and will be changed when beta comes around... fine....

 

 

Everything should be considered temporary until the final game is released. Nothing is a sacred cow. If some of you could just understand that nothing we have now is final until the game is final you would knee jerk a lot less.

 

They very well may go to a system of some are detachable some aren’t etc. what we will be getting is phase one of mods...not the final version.

[Viktoriusiii]

If some of you could just understand that nothing we have now is final until the game is final you would knee jerk a lot less.

 

 

 

Ill have to play at least one alpha that breaks my immersion every time i take a look at my gun and think "damn this superglue!"

 

And I am not raging... simply stating how absolutly moronic this choice is. To take it off again should be not a problem (i mean coding wise)... since both weapon and attachment are the same before and after.

It simply makes no sense. The far easier and better alternative is to simply lower chances of finding them.

And if it is a programming issue only... please state it as such. Because the mentioned 'reason' was illogical.

[Zadwanaa]

because the logic is the point... not the gameplay.

I dont even doubt that gameplay doesn't suffer...

but my immersion will...

 

So you're perfectly immersed falling 100s of feet down onto 1 haybale and be perfectly fine, or slapping a car with a wrench and pulling out short iron pipes, scrap iron and/or leather but not being able to detach a scope throws you off?

 

I can see your point, but i think you're just being faaaar too picky. I sincerely hordes of people will be turned off from 7DTD because some mods arent detachable.

 

Also, i'm not quite sure if TFP are building this game around your immersion. I'm not certain, maybe but I dont think so.

 

[Editted to add more snark]

[meganoth]

I wish we could change the effect itself so its like the cats eye chem from fallout new vegas. Here is a picture of it: [ATTACH=CONFIG]24795[/ATTACH] Picture is clear and it has a blueish filter effect with no static like the ones in 7dtd.

 

I think they don't want the night vision googles to be so good that it doesn't matter anymore if it is day or night.

 

... no please! change my mind! tell me I'm crazy and overlook something... tell me there is a better reason then "we aren't able to balance it better so we will break your immersion so you have to scavange even more"

 

Why not simply make the attachments rarer?

Its a super simple, non immersion breaking change. Why artificially create a problem where non exists?

 

Remember all those posts about "RNG hell" when wrench, minibike and some other recipe were made so scarce that some people never found one in 80 days while the mass of players still had them in the first two weeks? The chance of this happening is smaller if they are less scarce.

 

And if someone needs about 10 laser targetting pointers instead of about 2 in a whole game then he will be pleasently surprised 10 times instead of only twice when he finds one.

 

And even when he found the super dooper laser targetting pointer mark6 very early, he might keep it in a chest for a better weapon and be happy about the mark2 he finds afterwards, because the slot in his quality3 weapon is still empty. This is is a tactical choice he can make. "How good must the weapon be to put in my high quality mod? What mix of mods that I have collected is right for this weapon? Is this my final weapon or do I look for another one and use this as intermediary?"

 

If mods can be detached the player doesn't need to think anymore. Always put the best mods in the best weapon. Finished. Could be automated because there is practically no choice involved anymore.

[Roland]

At the end of the day it comes down to one question: Can, and do I, believe in the world The Fun Pimps are selling, and is it fun to be here?.

 

You don’t sound like the average gamer. You sound like someone with quite a bit more gun knowledge than the average gamer. My immersion won’t be affected by whatever they decide because I don’t have enough knowledge to be critical.

 

It’s like if I read the book before seeing the movie. My wife loves it but I hate it because of my deeper knowledge.

 

At the end of the day will the average player who doesn’t care about the absolute realism of how gun attachments work feel they can believe the world? Sure they can.

 

It’s just like the guy who can’t play because all references to ammo uses the word “bullet” and he feels they should be “rounds”. His immersion is spoiled while 99% of the community has plenty of fun despite the text.

[Tearstone]

True enough. And no, I don't expect things to 'stick' as they are. If one looks at lit like writing, these are all still rough drafts. Each patch for bug fixes are just fixing the grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc.

 

Mind you, i'm still having a ball with A16, and still eagerly awaiting A17. I don't think what the devs have set up will detract badly as is. I do look forward to seeing the tweaks that come after. Merely, looking to impress upon them that outside of a programming/coding issue the basic premise of interchageable parts (thank you Eli Whitney) is something that shouldn't be ignored.

 

I think you guys are doing some good stuff. So don't take my word vomit post as being overly critical. Or for being angry or raging (if anyone was thinking that was the case). Merely looking to enhance the argument/counterpoint. Still got mad love for The Fun Pimps. I picked up 7 Days I dunno how many Alphas ago, and I think I paid $25 for it. I'd have to go way back in my records. And so far I've gotten my money's worth, over and over again. I don't plan on going anywhere any time soon. 7 Days has pretty much become my favorite, especially when I want to just get out of my own head, woes, and kill some zombies, solve some problems, and make something cool or fun.

 

And even with 230+ hours (not nearly as much as some folks here) ... I'm -still- finding out about little 'new' things here and there. (Ex: drawbridges. had no idea about them until a few days ago. And then I had to go and make one... okay a few.. cuz I had a few fails. Another example is a small tweak to my electrical systems that have made a BIG impact.)

 

I just wanted to clarify that. Ain't no hate in my words.

[Viktoriusiii]

So you're perfectly immersed falling 100s of feet down onto 1 haybale and be perfectly fine, or slapping a car with a wrench and pulling out short iron pipes, scrap iron and/or leather but not being able to detach a scope throws you off?

 

 

Haybale is, at least in theory, possible... the amount is not correct and they have stated its a temporary mechanic... and I dont use it... so i dont care about it.

 

and the wrech is a substitute for actual animations losening every screw.

Its a shortening of a "get carparts" animation/action.

 

There is no such thing as "once you have done X, it is permanent and all you can do is hope for a new thing"

 

best example minibike... how would you feel about it, if you found enough minibike parts to build one... you build one... it breaks and you cannot repair or unassable it because "youll not be happy when you find a new one"

 

 

 

I'm all for gameplay boni... but they have to make at least a moderate amount of sense...

Haybales DO break your fall

Cops spit mutated stomach acis at you

traders getting new inventory from other survivors that you never see.

all of that is not "realistic", but is grounded in reality.

Permanent weapon attachments are not reality.

Yes if you saw off the front of a shotgun that is permanent.

But putting in a differently sized magazine is not.

Putting a scope on it is not.

 

 

Imagine what would happen if you could only find forgebooks... (like in the old rng era) but as soon as you place down the forge you cannot produce a new forge and you cannot pick up the forge. When you place it, its permanent until you find another forgebook.

 

100% same principle.

"well people will be happy to find a book they have already read"

no real reason why the book would disappear or you unlearn how to craft one.

limits your playstyle and constantly reminds you that this is retarded and makes you regret putting a scope on your first rifle, because now you have a better one with no scope.

 

Its a lose lose lose draw situation.

(the draw beeing that you are happy/relieved at finally finding the attachment you were looking for after beeing frustrated for 14 days)

 

 

 

I just wanted to clarify that. Ain't no hate in my words.

 

i dont think anyone here hates them for changes... critique, especially one so obvious has nothing to do with hate. but with frustration, that is only furthered by willing ignorance.

 

I love the game. 1000+ hours. A7 i think was my first. Actively in the forum... still enjoy the game...

but I do think MOST of the community, especially the more frequent posters are too forgiving and defending of bad or at least controvercial changes.

[Roland]

Ill have to play at least one alpha that breaks my immersion every time i take a look at my gun and think "damn this superglue!"

 

And I am not raging... simply stating how absolutly moronic this choice is. To take it off again should be not a problem (i mean coding wise)... since both weapon and attachment are the same before and after.

It simply makes no sense. The far easier and better alternative is to simply lower chances of finding them.

And if it is a programming issue only... please state it as such. Because the mentioned 'reason' was illogical.

 

Its not a programming issue. It’s a design decision of gameplay over realism. It might not be final. This was a couple of months ago and the reasoning was to keep scavenging relevant. Getting a set of mods that you can just detach and add to a new gun means that part of the game is over once you have them. If they decide to stick with this model for A17 there’s no reason from a programming aspect they can’t change it if they feel the sacrifice of realism is too great.

[GrumpyGringo]

lol...Tyrones A17 Intervention

...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvwlEPyi6Y4

 

Lol yup

[Viktoriusiii]

Simple:

decrease spawnrate

make mods stackable (better scope, bigger or brighter laser, bigger magazine)

make vendors buy them at high prices, make them quest objectives, make them quality dependant, make them breakable (not or only partially repairable)

 

those are ideas that have come to my mind WHILE WRITING this... and all of those have absolutly no conflict with lore, realism or immersion.

They even add to it AND give you infinite value for every following attachment.

[Roland]

Haybale is, at least in theory, possible... the amount is not correct and they have stated its a temporary mechanic... and I dont use it... so i dont care about it.

 

and the wrech is a substitute for actual animations losening every screw.

Its a shortening of a "get carparts" animation/action.

 

traders getting new inventory from other survivors that you never see.

all of that is not "realistic", but is grounded in reality

.

 

Lol....I can imagine that right now there is a physics major, a mechanic, and a retailer who are all upset about your audacity at being so blasé about how choosing gameplay over realism is okay for those examples you gave.

 

Of course there are all the physics majors, mechanics, and retailers who aren’t here to read this because they uninstalled the game long ago out of frustration that the game failed them in terms of immersion.

[TSBX]

Give them variables that matter. A scope could be scratched, an extended mag could be damaged until you can find a replacement part and have it repaired via a perk or at a vendor. There are a lot of side/upgrades that come to mind that would add to risk vs reward, and also contribute to organic gameplay.

 

This is the first iteration of it and it will improve going forward but we were also told "cougars" and given wolves.

 

Trust in The Pimps 2018

 

#TITP2018

[Guppycur]

I just hope that in the spirit of all this extra modability, that The Pimps allow us to change whether or not a specific mod can be removed via an XML setting.

 

Per item.

 

Then, nails in a bat can't be removed, but an extended mag or scope can.

 

Because it just makes sense.

[Scyris]

I just hope that in the spirit of all this extra modability, that The Pimps allow us to change whether or not a specific mod can be removed via an XML setting.

 

Per item.

 

Then, nails in a bat can't be removed, but an extended mag or scope can.

 

Because it just makes sense.

 

Also make mods weapon specific, for example a scope for a pistol I am sure would be alot diffrent than the type you'd put on a sniper. I also agree mods need to be removable, or at the least overwriteable with a better mod. Also look at it from gameplay, you find mod of godhood, are you going to put that in a tan weap? no your going to stockpile that till you get a tier 6 weapon to put it on, I'd rather be able to freely install and remove mods that make sense to be that way: silencers, scopes, extended magazines, extended barrels etc. This way, we dont't have situations where people are sitting on unused mods. I am assuming since mods and skills/perks are where most of your bonus damage comes from there will be mods with stats like +damage etc on them. Would you really put a nice mod like that which is rare on a low end weapon? probally not. While I guess it is good for balance, its bad for gameplay because you have to artifically restrict yourself.

[MonggolKhan]

Please get rid of duplication bug..

[Drithyl]

Its not a programming issue. It’s a design decision of gameplay over realism. It might not be final. This was a couple of months ago and the reasoning was to keep scavenging relevant. Getting a set of mods that you can just detach and add to a new gun means that part of the game is over once you have them. If they decide to stick with this model for A17 there’s no reason from a programming aspect they can’t change it if they feel the sacrifice of realism is too great.

 

Regarding earlier, I have no doubt that this is all temporary and is subjected to change; these reactions are simply the first take of players upon the announcement of a feature. I don't see them so much as a knee jerk (as long as they stay

 

Regarding keeping scavenging interesting, that's a fair concern, but if it comes at the price of redundancy or frustration, then there's gotta be a better way.

[Roland]

Please get rid of duplication bug..

 

Copy machine technicians would go ballistic...

[JayzenFreeze]

You don’t sound like the average gamer. You sound like someone with quite a bit more gun knowledge than the average gamer. My immersion won’t be affected by whatever they decide because I don’t have enough knowledge to be critical.

 

It’s like if I read the book before seeing the movie. My wife loves it but I hate it because of my deeper knowledge.

 

At the end of the day will the average player who doesn’t care about the absolute realism of how gun attachments work feel they can believe the world? Sure they can.

 

It’s just like the guy who can’t play because all references to ammo uses the word “bullet” and he feels they should be “rounds”. His immersion is spoiled while 99% of the community has plenty of fun despite the text.

 

I hope attachments dont stay like that or are that way. They are not fused to the weapons. a guns clip comes out a silencer unscrews a sight unscrews and slids off.

[stasis78]

I know I should rage about raiders not being released. And about progression that is XML editable. And also why I don’t need a spoon to eat stew ( devs think all players are very uncouth )

 

But atleast please give hints about xml mods that are now possible but not before. Not asking for heaven and earth. Just some basic clues.