1.0 (A22) Dev Diary Overflow

[FranticDan]

4 hours ago, zztong said:

 

I can't really tell from the video, but your reply to Josh indicates you're hitting the SPACEBAR (to jump) if I understand correctly. (Do I?)

 

I'm wondering if you're colliding with the fence that that is keeping you from clearing the fence? If you jump while moving forward you might hit the fence before you reach the apex of the jump and then the rest of the jump might just be straight up in the air. Maybe? I'm guessing.

If you slow down the video to 25%, you can see that I lose stamina from "jumping" about half a metre before reaching the fence and I keep moving towards the fence. And then while I'm reloading (which is what I normally do immediately after jumping over things) I am rubbing against the fence and I panic jump due to the hopping and you can clearly see that I jump up about half a metre which is due to reloading.

 

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Easy way to find out: @FranticDan Can you show us a video of you jumping without any fence in the way and you still only hop in place? If not and it happens only in front of fences then it is just because you are too close to the fence when trying to jump.

 

I can try to show a video. I'll randomly jump during my next stream. However, this has also happened when trying to jump up to reach a ladder. Normally if you jump and hit your head on a block, the screen will tilt to one side, but occasionally when I attempt to jump up a ladder (when running away) my character will do exactly the same thing as in this video, and it usually results in running out of stamina immediately after "jumping" and then dead.
I also want to note, even if you are out of stamina, you can still jump up like normal, you just won't have the momentum you get from running. So running out of stamina before a jump is not the reason why this happens.

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, FranticDan said:

If you slow down the video to 25%, you can see that I lose stamina from "jumping" about half a metre before reaching the fence and I keep moving towards the fence. And then while I'm reloading (which is what I normally do immediately after jumping over things) I am rubbing against the fence and I panic jump due to the hopping and you can clearly see that I jump up about half a metre which is due to reloading.

 

I can try to show a video. I'll randomly jump during my next stream. However, this has also happened when trying to jump up to reach a ladder. Normally if you jump and hit your head on a block, the screen will tilt to one side, but occasionally when I attempt to jump up a ladder (when running away) my character will do exactly the same thing as in this video, and it usually results in running out of stamina immediately after "jumping" and then dead.
I also want to note, even if you are out of stamina, you can still jump up like normal, you just won't have the momentum you get from running. So running out of stamina before a jump is not the reason why this happens.

 

Jumping up to a ladder has the same mechanism as jumping over a fence, if you are too close you will hit the wall before reaching a sufficient height and fail.

 

If running out of stamina makes you do the hop instead of a forward jump then that may be just a design decision of TFP, i.e. you need 20 stamina for a forward jump and if you have less than 20 stamina, you can't jump forward. That the interrupted jump has a different animation while running forwards wouldn't really matter.

 

I am not saying this is the case though, just that we need to find a case where the cause is clear. I remember deaths through not reaching a ladder as well, but in most cases the jump was ill-timed. And in other cases I may have assumed it was because of running out of stamina, but without knowing exactly how much stamina I had then. I am a player with tunnel vision, I often find out about having low health (or no stamina) through unexpectedly dying.

 

 

 

Edited February 29 by meganoth (see edit history)

[FranticDan]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Jumping up to a ladder has the same mechanism as jumping over a fence, if you are too close you will hit the wall before reaching a sufficient height and fail.

 

If running out of stamina makes you do the hop instead of a forward jump then that may be just a design decision of TFP, i.e. you need 20 stamina for a forward jump and if you have less than 20 stamina, you can't jump forward. That the interrupted jump has a different animation while running forwards wouldn't really matter.

 

I am not saying this is the case though, just that we need to find a case where the cause is clear. I remember deaths through not reaching a ladder as well, but in most cases the jump was ill-timed. And in other cases I may have assumed it was because of running out of stamina, but without knowing exactly how much stamina I had then. I am a player with tunnel vision, I often find out about having low health (or no stamina) through unexpectedly dying.

 

 

 

Why would it be then that in the clip I shared, I "jumped" JUST BEFORE reaching the fence, causing me to stay glued to the ground, and then when I was touching the fence (and reloading) I was able to partially jump, reloading preventing a full jump? On top of that, in my opinion, if being too close to a block prevents you from jumping is an intended mechanic, I think that is ridiculous. And it shouldn't cost 20 stamina to stay glued to the ground.

I had 80 stamina when the hop happened. So definitely had enough for a jump.

You DO NOT need stamina to jump, if this was the case, it would be a very common occurrence when nerd poling. Having no stamina while jumping simply means your forward momentum will be the same speed as walking.

You can easily hit your head on the bottom of a ladder if you're up against the wall with the ladder, this will cause the camera to tilt sideways, indicating you've hit your head. This is why I have plates against the wall underneath the ladder to prevent hitting my head, but every now and then, I will remain glued to the ground when pressing spacebar.

PS: I forgot to try to get the hop to trigger when I played today
 

[zztong]

10 hours ago, FranticDan said:

If you slow down the video to 25%, you can see that I lose stamina from "jumping" about half a metre before reaching the fence and I keep moving towards the fence. And then while I'm reloading (which is what I normally do immediately after jumping over things) I am rubbing against the fence and I panic jump due to the hopping and you can clearly see that I jump up about half a metre which is due to reloading.

 

Okay, I'm watching it at 25% right now.

 

== First Take ==

 

The first one looks to me like you were scraping along the fence and jumped. I suspect you're hitting the fence at the beginning of your jump and that your movement conforms to the shape of the fence. That is, you're not on a path to land on, or go over, the fence. I could be wrong. That's just what I think I see.

 

The second jump, while you're talking about the first hop, was started away from the fence and you clear the fence.

 

Your third jump is while approaching the fence again and you clear it.

 

The fourth jump is out in the open right after you get hit and you're out of stamina.

 

== Second Take ==

 

This time I tried to watch your stamina. You're running which takes you from 82 to 79 stamina.

 

There's a jump taking you from 79 to 59.

 

Some running taking you from 59 to 55 and then to 35, and I'm confused.

 

It looks like there's a second jump there that I didn't see before and this seems to be what you're calling the hop. This is all happened in the first two seconds of the video.

 

Did you press the SPACEBAR for both the 79 to 59 jump and the 55 to 35 jump, or is that second jump just happening somehow?

[FranticDan]

7 minutes ago, zztong said:

Did you press the SPACEBAR for both the 79 to 59 jump and the 55 to 35 jump, or is that second jump just happening somehow?

I pressed space for both. The 79 - 59 is the hop, I immediately start reloading after the hop, as my intention was to start reloading immediately AFTER jumping over the fence. Which is about 0.25-0.5 seconds after pressing space.

And the 55 - 35 is me panicking jump while reloading.

As I'm sure you noticed, when my stamina went from 79 - 59 (pressing space the first time) my feet stayed glued to the ground, and I was approx 0.5m away from touching the fence.

25 minutes ago, zztong said:

The fourth jump is out in the open right after you get hit and you're out of stamina.

BTW, that's not jumping, that's the camera shake that happens when you take a large hit

[Makaroni95]

Finally A22 Diary!  Please say that we get new Doors craftable! I hated A21 because we cannot make those new Doors

[Adam the Waster]

2 hours ago, Makaroni95 said:

Finally A22 Diary!  Please say that we get new Doors craftable! I hated A21 because we cannot make those new Doors

Jail doors!

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, FranticDan said:

On top of that, in my opinion, if being too close to a block prevents you from jumping is an intended mechanic, I think that is ridiculous. And it shouldn't cost 20 stamina to stay glued to the ground.

 

So ridiculous that it will happen in real life if you try it. Run up to a fence and start jumping too late and I promise you will have a hard landing on your face.

 

[zztong]

22 hours ago, FranticDan said:

As I'm sure you noticed, when my stamina went from 79 - 59 (pressing space the first time) my feet stayed glued to the ground, and I was approx 0.5m away from touching the fence.

 

I didn't, but I do now, I think. It has taken me a few times to watching that part at 25% speed and your commentary here to really get to know what is happening.

 

22 hours ago, FranticDan said:

BTW, that's not jumping, that's the camera shake that happens when you take a large hit

 

Ah yes, that makes sense.

[Riamus]

18 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

So ridiculous that it will happen in real life if you try it. Run up to a fence and start jumping too late and I promise you will have a hard landing on your face.

 

Not to mention, this isn't uncommon in games.

[FranticDan]

This is the very moment I attempted to jump the fence, approx 50cm away from the fence, which apparently is too close to get your feet off the ground.



And here is a video of me disproving that this "hopping" is a feature - 

 

[Callum123456789]

lets not get realism mixed up with gameplay too, ive seen this argument made before where its realistic but sometimes realism harms gameplay and creates a negative experiences.

 

edit: also yeah sometimes block hitboxes can be messy ive had this before too.

Edited March 1 by Callum123456789 (see edit history)

[Syphon583]

I didn't realize the difference between hopping and jumping was going to be a focus of A22, but here we are. 🤷‍♂️

Edited March 1 by Syphon583 (see edit history)

[Riamus]

2 hours ago, FranticDan said:

This is the very moment I attempted to jump the fence, approx 50cm away from the fence, which apparently is too close to get your feet off the ground.



And here is a video of me disproving that this "hopping" is a feature - 

 

Ok, so I admit I didn't watch the previous video you posted but this one you are getting over the fence every time.  And quite clearly, you are also hitting the fence in your jump in multiple instances.  It isn't unusual to hit something while jumping forward in a game and have it interrupt your jump.  If you get in the habit of jumping sooner, you won't have a problem with hitting a fence or whatever else while jumping.

 

If there *was* a feature allowing you to "hop" instead of do a full jump, I'd actually really like that.  I always max parkour but doing so means it can be extremely difficult to make certain jumps in some POI because they are designed for when you don't have parkour and so you can't easily make those jumps.  I have had to just break walls or window frames or chandeliers to make these jumps when I had parkour.  Being able to not have that happen would be great.  But unless you hit something while jumping, you're going to do a full jump every time.  And hitting something causing your jump to fail is not at all uncommon in games and just something to get used to, imo.

[Sarakatunga]

On 2/28/2024 at 5:45 AM, Arez said:

 

Hello, well in conclusion who is responsible for the 3D modeling of the players, will it be possible to see more than 100 meters now?

 

[toores]

On 2/28/2024 at 4:16 PM, FranticDan said:

The two sounds that I find super loud are the auger and electricity shock buff, but they are nowhere near as annoying as the night time "one-shots" playing throughout the night, so loud you can't hear footsteps of zombies approaching from behind.
The last two days I've been playing with a mod that removes them and it's so nice to crank the ambience to 100% and hear the campfire, rain and thunder being loud and gets me immersed with the environment.

Exactly!
I love turning environment sounds up it truly pulls you into the game. I Fallout I actually loved that in heavy weather I could not hear enemy footsteps so well and had to rely on my sight more. (In Fallout I used some weather mods as well)
At the moment I have this volume toggle at 10-20%, because I can't stand the non-environmental sinistaer sound samples. Just the other day I turned it up again because it was weird not hearng the rainfall but turned it back down in 10 minutes because the sinister sound clips took me out of the game.

Separate toggle please! I thing those sounds are nice I you like this type of sound effects, but I alwauys turn music and theme sounds and non-environmental stuff off and only leave environmet sounds. To me, it's the most immersive experience.

Edited March 2 by toores (see edit history)

[Crater Creator]

 

On 2/27/2024 at 4:25 AM, Gronal said:

Ah yes back to checking the dev diary daily cos I don't want to miss anything just to have to scroll through pages of irrelevant chatter and bickering. Love it.

 

14 hours ago, Syphon583 said:

I didn't realize the difference between hopping and jumping was going to be a focus of A22, but here we are. 🤷‍♂️

 

We’re doing the overflow thread again to maintain organization/topicality. This is directed at everyone: if the subject of your post isn't mentioned in the top post of the dev diary, or by a developer, then please find or create a more appropriate thread to discuss it. Where to draw that line can be tricky, so please mind where you’re posting so we don’t have to move your post.

[Arez]

8 hours ago, Sarakatunga said:

Hello, well in conclusion who is responsible for the 3D modeling of the players, will it be possible to see more than 100 meters now?

 

I'm confused about what you're asking.

I think you might've quoted the wrong person.

[meganoth]

18 hours ago, FranticDan said:

This is the very moment I attempted to jump the fence, approx 50cm away from the fence, which apparently is too close to get your feet off the ground.

 

It looks to me like you are too close to the fence (if I compare it to my memorized idea of when to jump in 7d2d). Jumping while running surely follows a physically correct "ballistic trajectory". If you can run relatively fast compared to the upwards speed of the jump the curve will need more like a meter or more to reach the highest point of that curve. 

 

Even worse in the wilderness where a little unevenness of the ground could mean you are slightly lower than base height of the fence.

 

You are trying to increase the jump distance to the fence by approaching in a steep angle. This helps, but in the game you and the obstacle may have slightly bigger collision boxes than the visible frame so you could hit the fence earlier than expected as well. Also the collision boxes may be simply rectangular boxes that don't follow your frame closely everywhere. This could contribute further to the effect that jumping at a steep angle is not as effective as it should be.

 

A failed jump just stops your jump, which seems unnatural because in reality you would topple over the fence and falling on your face which isn't implemented in the game.

 

 

18 hours ago, FranticDan said:

And here is a video of me disproving that this "hopping" is a feature - 

 

 

What I would have expected. If you are timing your jump correctly and start jumping early enough you will reach a sufficient height when you reach the fence. And it seems you are jumping from a sufficient distance in this video, from farther away than in the first video.

 

Also it shows that the fence is high enough that you are only marginally clearing it (as you seem to often hit the top of the fence) which means the window of distance where the jump works is quite narrow.

 

 

Edited March 2 by meganoth (see edit history)

[FranticDan]

7 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

It looks to me like you are too close to the fence

 

What are you trying to prove exactly? All I am seeing is that If you are timing your jump correctly and start jumping early enough you will reach a sufficient height when you reach the fence. And it seems you are jumping from a sufficient distance in this video, from farther away than in the first video.

You just said, 50cm is too close to jump (screenshot), but TOUCHING the fence is far enough away (video).

I made many MANY attempts to replicate the "hop" using people's comments pointing out possible causes of why I'm hopping, and I proved them to be incorrect with this video. I successfully jumped the fence, EVERY....SINGLE....TIME. Jumping at different angles, AND slightly different distances. 
Not to mention, using the fence posts to help replicate it, as I was close to one when this occurred in my clip. 
This is the exact same fence in both the clip and video.

In the end, it cost me 60 stamina (3 jumps) to jump the fence, instead of 20 (1 jump). This is literally a matter of life or death when in mid-combat like I was.

The ultimate solution to this topic, would be to ask a member of TFP:
"Is there specific code that tells the game to keep the players feet firmly on the ground and cost 20 stamina when attempting specific jumps?".
I'm going to assume that no such code exists. Although, actually getting an official answer to this question would be great!

[meganoth]

6 minutes ago, FranticDan said:

You just said, 50cm is too close to jump (screenshot), but TOUCHING the fence is far enough away (video).

 

You said it is 50cm in your video, I just accepted your estimation. It just feels too close to the fence for me and my muscle memory. To me your failed jump in the first video seems to be happening from a closer distance than all the jumps of your second video now. That is why I think everything is as expected.

 

It is possible that I am wrong and am not seeing correctly what happens as a video is different from actually being in the game. But look again at your first video, it looks like you are as good as touching the fence if you assume you are not a stick figure but a person with typical width.

 

And in the second video you never try to jump the fence in a similar steep angle as in the first video.

 

17 minutes ago, FranticDan said:

I made many MANY attempts to replicate the "hop" using people's comments pointing out possible causes of why I'm hopping, and I proved them to be incorrect with this video. I successfully jumped the fence, EVERY....SINGLE....TIME. Jumping at different angles, AND slightly different distances. 
Not to mention, using the fence posts to help replicate it, as I was close to one when this occurred in my clip. 
This is the exact same fence in both the clip and video.

 

Not sure the fence posts have any influence in your jump. There is a good chance a fence has a very simple rectangular collision box.

 

 

 

[BFT2020]

2 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

We’re doing the overflow thread again to maintain organization/topicality. This is directed at everyone: if the subject of your post isn't mentioned in the top post of the dev diary, or by a developer, then please find or create a more appropriate thread to discuss it. Where to draw that line can be tricky, so please mind where you’re posting so we don’t have to move your post.

 

You might not have realize just how difficult it was for me in the A22 developer thread not to be smartass and kept responding to the OPs post about chatter with meaningless chatter  😅

[FranticDan]

8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

You said it is 50cm in your video, I just accepted your estimation. It just feels too close to the fence for me and my muscle memory. To me your failed jump in the first video seems to be happening from a closer distance than all the jumps of your second video now. That is why I think everything is as expected.

 

It is possible that I am wrong and am not seeing correctly what happens as a video is different from actually being in the game. But look again at your first video, it looks like you are as good as touching the fence if you assume you are not a stick figure but a person with typical width.

 

And in the second video you never try to jump the fence in a similar steep angle as in the first video.

 

 

Not sure the fence posts have any influence in your jump. There is a good chance a fence has a very simple rectangular collision box.

 

 

 

I have to ask, did you watch at 25% speed?
And are we even talking about the same jump attempt? (This all happens very quickly and is easy to miss)

After the "hop" happens, my character continues to run towards the fence, and then as I start to slide along the fence, the reload animation begins.
You can see the moment the "hop" happens when my stamina drops from 79 - 59.
Considering that I continued to run towards the fence after trying to jump, I don't think I was too close to the fence. IMO.

The jump I make during the reloading is not the "hop". You can only half jump while reloading.

 

[spud42]

A21 has perk/magazine crossovers that need to be sorted out for A22. with the cooking magazines the master chef perks are redundant and a waste of points.  Its the same with grease monkey i havent put any points into it and i am only 10 magazines away from building a gyro.  the amount of points to max strength and then grease monkey are better spent elsewhere. I suppose it gives the player a choice . is there any overhaul of the magazine /perk duplications in A22?

 

[theFlu]

Looking at the twitch clip (welcome to /general ) ... I don't think I'd be able to replicate that intentionally, at all. In my experience, this game doesn't really knock you "down" when you collide with your 'destined' block, you should only fail a 1m jump if crouching or reloading - or hitting your head. It's a completely weird behavior to me.