Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Jugom]

On 7/25/2022 at 8:55 PM, Jugom said:

 

does this mean people playing 5 minute days will have a lot of water and those playing longer days will have a harder time collecting them?

@Roland if you roll back to when I first asked, schwanz said so. 😬
maybe it was changed since then?

[Gamida]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

This brings up a good point. Some players let their meters fall to the point where they first get penalized and then eat/drink to fill up and they don’t feel like they are having to eat/drink all the time. Others can’t stand to see anything less than a full meter so they are constantly eating to maintain meters at 100%. This is also something people don’t usually disclose when they complain about how often the game requires them to eat and drink.

 

I am one of those who likes to have a full meter as from what I am told stamina is connected to food and water levels and I run alot so like to have my stamina up.

That said I just started on a server to pass some time and my food bar has been low enough (that means at 0 lol )that I have lost health. I don't find it that bad as I can usually find a can of food here and there to get the bar to show again so nothing life threatening.

It is just different.

[Lycaon]

I just saw a video about what changes are made in A21:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuTvWxt4hGM

 

And I have to say: I don't like it at all, waiting for things to actually get better or make any sense. After nearly 10 years you clearly have no idea where you want to go with this game, making weird changes just for the sake of changing anything. I just signed up to tell you this.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Crater Creator
Rule B3: Goodbye Posts (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

This brings up a good point. Some players let their meters fall to the point where they first get penalized and then eat/drink to fill up and they don’t feel like they are having to eat/drink all the time. Others can’t stand to see anything less than a full meter so they are constantly eating to maintain meters at 100%.

And then there are those who eat only when their stamina is decreased, but they don't fill up, they only eat enough to get rid of the debuff. They also don't take advantage of the fact that they can overeat.
 

Edited October 2, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Roland]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

And then there are those who eat only when their stamina is decreased, but they don't fill up, they only eat enough to get rid of the debuff. They also don't take advantage of the fact that they can overeat.
 

Yes, this too. Any time you are trying to hover the status bar at one point you are going to have to constantly maintain that hover.

6 hours ago, Jugom said:

@Roland if you roll back to when I first asked, schwanz said so. 😬
maybe it was changed since then?

 

hmmm...maybe I better look at the code or test 5 minute days.

[zztong]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

Others can’t stand to see anything less than a full meter so they are constantly eating to maintain meters at 100%. This is also something people don’t usually disclose when they complain about how often the game requires them to eat and drink.

 

This suggests to me that some don't understand the meter and/or the meter's UI isn't clear. I know I'd like to see the numbers on the meter.

 

I have always loaded up on Healing Factor, but several months back I read a number of people saying that makes you hungry faster. I tried to find that in game documentation, but didn't see it as a direct effect.

[Riamus]

19 hours ago, Roland said:

 

You're assuming that all the meat that went into the cook pot came out of the cook pot. I always felt like the early game food preparation (including harvesting) abstracts a lot of waste and plenty of charring that must be scraped off using rudimentary tools and having rudimentary experience with cooking.

Yeah, but charred meat, boiled meat and grilled meat all have the same food value IIRC.  Charred, I can see your point. Boiled or grilled? Not really.  And the idea with charred is that the hydration penalty seems to suggest you're eating even the worst of the char, though that's just how I look at it.  Either way, it is a gameplay reason and I'm fine with it. My only reason for commenting on it was to say that it wasn't realistic in the early game compared to the later game.

 

7 hours ago, Roland said:

This brings up a good point. Some players let their meters fall to the point where they first get penalized and then eat/drink to fill up and they don’t feel like they are having to eat/drink all the time. Others can’t stand to see anything less than a full meter so they are constantly eating to maintain meters at 100%. This is also something people don’t usually disclose when they complain about how often the game requires them to eat and drink. 

That brings up another point.  It wasn't until I was probably 40-60 real time into the game when I first noticed the food and drink bars.  Being 1 pixel high at the bottom of the screen the same width of the quick slot bar attached to it makes it very unnoticeable.  It would be helpful to make it 2-3 pixels or so high so it is more easily noticed by new players and easier to see for everyone.  Or make a change to the UI placement similar to a screenshot I saw of a mod that put it at the left near the health and stamina, though that does take up too much screen space, imo.

[Roland]

8 hours ago, Jugom said:

@Roland if you roll back to when I first asked, schwanz said so. 😬
maybe it was changed since then?

Well I asked and you are 100% right and I was completely wrong. I have to say I am shocked. All of you 120 minute day players are going to have sloooooooooow collectors…lol.

[Prydonian]

5 hours ago, RipClaw said:

And then there are those who eat only when their stamina is decreased, but they don't fill up, they only eat enough to get rid of the debuff. They also don't take advantage of the fact that they can overeat.
 

You can overeat?  What effect does that have?

[Riamus]

Another thing I was thinking about...

 

What is the purpose of changing day speed?  Faster days are generally more challenging and longer days are generally easier.  So you change based on difficulty preferences for the most part.  But the food and drink on a real life timer is backwards in terms of this difficulty change.  If you shorten days to have a faster horde schedule and limited time each day to do things, you have an easier time with food and drink. If you lengthen days to give you more time to do things and slower for the horde nights, you have a more difficult time with food and drink.  It works out backwards.  Not that it is ever really difficult.

 

There are of course other ways to change difficulty and I'm sure people change day length for other reasons, but it's still interesting.

[Roland]

31 minutes ago, Riamus said:

Another thing I was thinking about...

 

What is the purpose of changing day speed?  Faster days are generally more challenging and longer days are generally easier.  So you change based on difficulty preferences for the most part.  But the food and drink on a real life timer is backwards in terms of this difficulty change.  If you shorten days to have a faster horde schedule and limited time each day to do things, you have an easier time with food and drink. If you lengthen days to give you more time to do things and slower for the horde nights, you have a more difficult time with food and drink.  It works out backwards.  Not that it is ever really difficult.

 

There are of course other ways to change difficulty and I'm sure people change day length for other reasons, but it's still interesting.

 

I could be wrong again but I think hunger and thirst are not connected to game time. So you have to eat and drink just as often no matter what setting you choose. Of course that is modified by whether you are burning stamina or suffering from a cold climate but the unmodified rate is the same.

 

1 hour ago, Prydonian said:

You can overeat?  What effect does that have?

 

Your fullness and hydration bars stick at 100% while a timer counts down from whatever value over 100 your food or drink raised your fullness or hydration. It means that you don't have to wait to eat a stew because you're afraid you'll lose the extra. Just eat it and you get credit for the extra.

[Astronomical]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Well I asked and you are 100% right and I was completely wrong. I have to say I am shocked. All of you 120 minute day players are going to have sloooooooooow collectors…lol.

 

They'll still have the advantage of more time to loot though, but I guess that's a trade off so 120 days may not always be easier now.

[Syphon583]

9 hours ago, Lycaon said:

I just saw a video about what changes are made in A21:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuTvWxt4hGM

 

And I have to say: I don't like it at all. I am done with this game, waiting for things to actually get better or make any sense. After nearly 10 years you clearly have no idea where you want to go with this game, making weird changes just for the sake of changing anything. I just signed up to tell you this. Bye.

[Blake_]

14 hours ago, Roland said:

This brings up a good point. Some players let their meters fall to the point where they first get penalized and then eat/drink to fill up and they don’t feel like they are having to eat/drink all the time. Others can’t stand to see anything less than a full meter so they are constantly eating to maintain meters at 100%. This is also something people don’t usually disclose when they complain about how often the game requires them to eat and drink. 

 

I’m not an extreme advocate for shorter days but I do enjoy doing a playthrough from time to time at 30 or 40 minute days. I love the time pressure and the more realistic representation of how much work I would be able to get done in an actual day. Fewer daily quests are possible and often you get caught in the middle of one at day’s end which makes for a spicy ending and return trip. For that reason I never play at settings longer than the default because of how cheesy it feels to me having so much time to prepare for horde night. 
 

Sure, horde night itself is shorter but in my experience most base designs by experienced players can easily repell a horde whether it last 30 minutes or 2 hours  or 4 hours.  This is especially true if you have given yourself soooooo much extra time to be able to over design your base for the first horde. My horde nights are shorter, true, but I’m also not gorging myself on XP and loot bags like someone who is playing a two hour horde night is. I get fewer rewards and less time to repair and prepare for the next one. 
 

My horde nights are shorter but still exciting and just as it starts to feel a bit monotonous the sun comes up and it ends. 
 

Hmmm…..maybe I am a strong advocate for shorter days. 🤪

Well, the point isn't always about questing or Horde nights or even base building. We also have hunting, mining and one of my favourites : exploring. We might also get underground exploring, random events both indoors and out, wtf moments in the wild, sightseeing, 'viewcatching', 'foolmaking', 'partnermocking', 'chickenharassing', 'skydiving', 'bearjumping' or 'partylaughing'. All of those things or 'features' do add up to the whole experience and I personally find that as much of a veteran efficient performer that one might be, one is always wanting to do more  useless tasks to just have fun, but the game won't let you fully engage in that foolish endeavor, even as a late game character. Now, a safe haven that costs 10000 dukes a night is something, but the easier way is just more time. That's the why I would love not having to edit 240 min or 480 min days in the game vs your 30mins or 40 that are, indeed, among the starting options already.

[RipClaw]

5 hours ago, Prydonian said:

You can overeat?  What effect does that have?

You will then have more than 100% food. As far as I know, you can overeat up to 50. These 50 are then a kind of additional reserve food.

[Jost Amman]

16 hours ago, Roland said:

Sure, horde night itself is shorter but in my experience most base designs by experienced players can easily repell a horde whether it last 30 minutes or 2 hours  or 4 hours.  This is especially true if you have given yourself soooooo much extra time to be able to over design your base for the first horde. My horde nights are shorter, true, but I’m also not gorging myself on XP and loot bags like someone who is playing a two hour horde night is. I get fewer rewards and less time to repair and prepare for the next one. 

Debatable.

1. It's not like we're "gorging" ourselves on XP... we're earning it by fighting, looting and doing activities like everyone else
2. You're too easily dismissing how hard it is to endure longer Blood Moons. True, we have more time to prepare, but that only accounts maybe for the first week BM (which is easy anyway). Once you go further in the game, even those who play at 30 mins can be fully ready and have shorter BMs on top of that.
3. You didn't consider ammo and base degradation in your equation: a longer BM, especially after the first few, means you need A LOT more ammo, and you could even run out at some point! On top of that, add the fact that zombies are continually bashing on your defenses and damaging your base, so unless you can reach and repair every damaged section, you have a higher risk of a breach, the more the night goes on.

I'd suggest you to try it sometimes, it's a different, less frantic, but more enjoyable approach to 7D2D.

You have an easier life on some aspects, and you can explore the world more, but you also have a tougher time on later BMs IMO.

[Vedui]

14 hours ago, Lycaon said:

I just saw a video about what changes are made in A21:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuTvWxt4hGM

 

And I have to say: I don't like it at all. I am done with this game, waiting for things to actually get better or make any sense. After nearly 10 years you clearly have no idea where you want to go with this game, making weird changes just for the sake of changing anything. I just signed up to tell you this. Bye.

 

Personally I'd blame that video creator for all the problems, as them content creators just stir up trouble and add no value! If only he had some useful suggestions instead!

 

Such as ... Hey TFP... do you think new UIX/mechanics would be possible for A22+++ ?

 

Ie such as:

 

1) Pin Recipe (something a number of survival games have implemented to the delight of users, and that even was custom made for a particular Modpack in 7 Days to Die).

 

2) Crafting pull of items from nearby chests ... while mods (well, one mod in particular implemented it) might do it, I suspect it's not as easy as a simple "stand alone" mod, meaning it's likely to be extremely rare to see it outside of a mod that specifically implements it. Subnautica for instance had a standalone mod like this which was awesome, and really made it more enjoyable...especially if coupled with auto-sort mod and so on

 

[Gamida]

12 hours ago, Riamus said:

That brings up another point.  It wasn't until I was probably 40-60 real time into the game when I first noticed the food and drink bars.  Being 1 pixel high at the bottom of the screen the same width of the quick slot bar attached to it makes it very unnoticeable.  It would be helpful to make it 2-3 pixels or so high so it is more easily noticed by new players and easier to see for everyone.  Or make a change to the UI placement similar to a screenshot I saw of a mod that put it at the left near the health and stamina, though that does take up too much screen space, imo.

 

Yeah I knew it was there and still had trouble seeing it. I use to mod it so it was a bit thicker but now am back to using a gui mod for water and food bars on left by stamina and health, like olden days.

 

Edit:

Went in and tried again and this is what I had done.

Top one normal bottom one made wider (higher) by 7 pixels

 

 

For it to look ok I should have moved it all up a few pixels so the dark under the bars were the same but it was just to see if I remembered where it was.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by Gamida (see edit history)

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Blake_ said:

Well, the point isn't always about questing or Horde nights or even base building. We also have hunting, mining and one of my favourites : exploring. We might also get underground exploring, random events both indoors and out, wtf moments in the wild, sightseeing, 'viewcatching', 'foolmaking', 'partnermocking', 'chickenharassing', 'skydiving', 'bearjumping' or 'partylaughing'. All of those things or 'features' do add up to the whole experience and I personally find that as much of a veteran efficient performer that one might be, one is always wanting to do more  useless tasks to just have fun, but the game won't let you fully engage in that foolish endeavor, even as a late game character. Now, a safe haven that costs 10000 dukes a night is something, but the easier way is just more time. That's the why I would love not having to edit 240 min or 480 min days in the game vs your 30mins or 40 that are, indeed, among the starting options already.

 

You don't need to get back to base because of night. A POI with a secure upper floor or a fully filled up bike is a safe haven for much less dukes.

 

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, Vedui said:

 

Personally I'd blame that video creator for all the problems, as them content creators just stir up trouble and add no value! If only he had some useful suggestions instead!

 

Such as ... Hey TFP... do you think new UIX/mechanics would be possible for A22+++ ?

 

Ie such as:

 

1) Pin Recipe (something a number of survival games have implemented to the delight of users, and that even was custom made for a particular Modpack in 7 Days to Die).

 

2) Crafting pull of items from nearby chests ... while mods (well, one mod in particular implemented it) might do it, I suspect it's not as easy as a simple "stand alone" mod, meaning it's likely to be extremely rare to see it outside of a mod that specifically implements it. Subnautica for instance had a standalone mod like this which was awesome, and really made it more enjoyable...especially if coupled with auto-sort mod and so on

 

 

Would like UI improvements to, but different ones:

 

Click on an ingredient of a recipe to list the recipe(s) of how to craft that ingredient.

Click on recipe title of an item and get all recipes that can be crafted with that item.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Bobby Lee 298]

2 hours ago, Gamida said:

 

Yeah I knew it was there and still had trouble seeing it. I use to mod it so it was a bit thicker but now am back to using a gui mod for water and food bars on left by stamina and health, like olden days.

 

Edit:

Went in and tried again and this is what I had done.

Top one normal bottom one made wider (higher) by 7 pixels

 

 

For it to look ok I should have moved it all up a few pixels so the dark under the bars were the same but it was just to see if I remembered where it was.

 

 

I can agree on that but i think it would but be best to redo the hud completely and take a look on how other people make huds for 7Days. The current hud is very lackluster, even the huds for crafting and everything else.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bobby Lee 298 said:

I can agree on that but i think it would but be best to redo the hud completely and take a look on how other people make huds for 7Days. The current hud is very lackluster, even the huds for crafting and everything else.

I imagine updating the HUD will be one of the final steps before gold.

 

It'd make sense to redo the UI once you know what's actually in the game and it's feature complete. Current UI just seems like a placeholder to me and game would look a lot more polished with a modern UI. Might be wrong though!

[Survager]

15 hours ago, Roland said:

Well I asked and you are 100% right and I was completely wrong. I have to say I am shocked. All of you 120 minute day players are going to have sloooooooooow collectors…lol.

More collectors to the god of collectors! )

[Guest]

Quick one - are cans being removed in A21? I saw some rationale about making the game uniform in how it returns items upon consumption. As far as I know wouldn't cans be the only outlier? Would make sense to get rid of them too if the goal is consistency.

[Riamus]

14 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I could be wrong again but I think hunger and thirst are not connected to game time. So you have to eat and drink just as often no matter what setting you choose. Of course that is modified by whether you are burning stamina or suffering from a cold climate but the unmodified rate is the same.

That was my point.  Being tied to real time means that if you play at 40 minute days versus 120 minute days, you are eating and drinking 1/3 the amount per day because your days go by faster without any change in how often you need to eat and drink in real time.  This makes it easier in regards to eating and drinking on a faster (supposedly more challenging) game speed.  So let's say you have to eat and drink once per 15 minutes real time.  On a 40 minute day, you would need to eat and drink around 3 tires per day.  On a 120 minute day, you'd need to eat and drink around 8 times per day.  Less need or difficulty on a shorter day.  Granted, you can say that trying to eat and drink so often on a shorter day would be too hard, but it would certainly help with the difficulty and survival aspects when playing a shorter day.  Probably wouldn't want a linear progression for eating and drinking if tied to game time because it would definitely be much harder if you had to eat and drink 8 times a day on a 40 minute day.  But a sliding scale based on game time would help balance it.  This can even be fiyne based on real time by just adjusting the eating and drinking timer based on day length while still using real time for the timer.