Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[outhous]

I can't wrap my head around...

16 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

... that anybody could consider that playable.  That being said.. i still play it.

 

So, IT IS playable for you. 😕

[Jinx_DG]

21 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

Cuz alpha has meaning, it's the stage of adding stuff

 

21 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

I think it's fair to throw the "it's an alpha" argument out the window

By your own definition of "alpha" it's not fair (of you) "...to throw..." that "...argument out the window..." Has there been any alpha where new stuff has not been added? 

 

Knowing the backstory and history of how this game and it's creators, may help you understand why it's been as long as it has. I'm sure someone else can explain it better, but take into account the brothers had an idea and started there goal of creating the company under which the game, you play today, would be developed, from scratch. Starting a bussiness is time consuming and complex, developing a game is the same, especially when funds are not unlimited. They've grown their dev team over the years and each new year has seen a new alpha with added content. The game still being in alpha hurts no one, and I for one have enjoyed playing all the "added stuff" each new alpha. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Jinx_DG (see edit history)

[AmishMan53]

 

Took this screenshot last night, fps in the top-left.  I will repeat that it runs mostly well outside of horde nights.  Aside from complete freeze frames opening a menu, that only happens occasionally, i maintain 40-60 fps outside of horde nights, with exception to some locations.  Weirdly, sitting down and staring at a block so their isn't much to render does little for the framerate either.

After horde night ended and we cleared the zombies my fps went back up to 60.  So i did a little test.  Simply turning on the defense systems (got a fair amount of spotlights above this bunker, 4 smg turrets and a shotgun turret) reduces my fps down to 40.  

 

Horde night is a key event of the game and the game is literally titled after it, and that is an unplayable framerate.  By removing the defense systems i may be able to get playable frames, but then i'm not playing the game in everything it has to offer.  Still.. i do love the game and hope for all these things to be fixed, however this is the exact reason why, in the years since i picked up the steam version, i have 188 hours logged, 99 of which has been invested in the past 3 weeks.  I come back every so often to see how it plays, and try some of the content that's new while i'm at it.  This is the longest stretch I've given it since my friend picked it up, but I likely would've only gone to day 14 or 21 with this experience otherwise.  He's pushing through, he loves survival games, but his experience is worst.. often freezing for 15-30 seconds upon opening his menu or a container, which much like my experience, only happens occasionally.  Gaming laptop with an APU, 8GB of RAM.

@Jinx_DG Reasons being what they are, theirs other actions that could've been taken.  It could've been crowdfunded for example, not being released to the public until it's closer to the vision they have, both in content and optimization.  So with alphas being what they are, yes it's the content adding stage, but most games also don't have public alphas in the first place, let alone this long of a public alpha.  People are giving you money, and your reworking a system for a third time, while tons of players are still awaiting bandits that's been an idea at least since alpha 15 (let me clarify, I couldn't care about bandits, it's just a shining example).  Much like Roland mentioned earlier, games often release content after the official launch as well.  It's another decision they could be making, to polish and optimize everything they have thus far, and then add content after everything is running as smooth as it could be.  And the throwing the argument out the window thing.. cuz 9 years.. again.  Theirs a line to be drawn somewhere.. if the game still plays like crap when i'm 90 and on my deathbed, well.. the introduction of bandits won't mean anything at that point would it?  5 years might even be too lenient, when it involves it costing me something.  Then again, i don't like the internet age of gaming anyway, far too many games release broken cuz of the "we can fix it later" attitude a lot of company's have.. and often the early access naming to me is just a safety net for that same mentality.  That said, not all company's that use it does it feel like they are abusing it that way, and even TFP i would put in that sphere.  I think this is a case of mismanagement to a degree, with reworking systems multiple times as evidence of that, but at the heart of it all, they want this done and a dream fully realized to perfection.

[meganoth]

56 minutes ago, AmishMan53 said:

 

Took this screenshot last night, fps in the top-left.  I will repeat that it runs mostly well outside of horde nights.  Aside from complete freeze frames opening a menu, that only happens occasionally, i maintain 40-60 fps outside of horde nights, with exception to some locations.  Weirdly, sitting down and staring at a block so their isn't much to render does little for the framerate either.

After horde night ended and we cleared the zombies my fps went back up to 60.  So i did a little test.  Simply turning on the defense systems (got a fair amount of spotlights above this bunker, 4 smg turrets and a shotgun turret) reduces my fps down to 40.  

 

Horde night is a key event of the game and the game is literally titled after it, and that is an unplayable framerate.  By removing the defense systems i may be able to get playable frames, but then i'm not playing the game in everything it has to offer.  Still.. i do love the game and hope for all these things to be fixed, however this is the exact reason why, in the years since i picked up the steam version, i have 188 hours logged, 99 of which has been invested in the past 3 weeks.  I come back every so often to see how it plays, and try some of the content that's new while i'm at it.  This is the longest stretch I've given it since my friend picked it up, but I likely would've only gone to day 14 or 21 with this experience otherwise.  He's pushing through, he loves survival games, but his experience is worst.. often freezing for 15-30 seconds upon opening his menu or a container, which much like my experience, only happens occasionally.  Gaming laptop with an APU, 8GB of RAM.

@Jinx_DG Reasons being what they are, theirs other actions that could've been taken.  It could've been crowdfunded for example, not being released to the public until it's closer to the vision they have, both in content and optimization.  So with alphas being what they are, yes it's the content adding stage, but most games also don't have public alphas in the first place, let alone this long of a public alpha.  People are giving you money, and your reworking a system for a third time, while tons of players are still awaiting bandits that's been an idea at least since alpha 15 (let me clarify, I couldn't care about bandits, it's just a shining example).  Much like Roland mentioned earlier, games often release content after the official launch as well.  It's another decision they could be making, to polish and optimize everything they have thus far, and then add content after everything is running as smooth as it could be.  And the throwing the argument out the window thing.. cuz 9 years.. again.  Theirs a line to be drawn somewhere.. if the game still plays like crap when i'm 90 and on my deathbed, well.. the introduction of bandits won't mean anything at that point would it?  5 years might even be too lenient, when it involves it costing me something.  Then again, i don't like the internet age of gaming anyway, far too many games release broken cuz of the "we can fix it later" attitude a lot of company's have.. and often the early access naming to me is just a safety net for that same mentality.  That said, not all company's that use it does it feel like they are abusing it that way, and even TFP i would put in that sphere.  I think this is a case of mismanagement to a degree, with reworking systems multiple times as evidence of that, but at the heart of it all, they want this done and a dream fully realized to perfection.

 

At what resolution did you say you were playing?

 

[AmishMan53]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

At what resolution did you say you were playing?

 

1080p.. tho that's not the fps counter from the game, but rather nvidia

[JCrook1028]

18 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

Horde night is a key event of the game and the game is literally titled after it,

Actually is was titled after the infection that used to kill you after 7 days. There was no Horde Night mechanic at the time.

[Riamus]

21 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

 Aside from complete freeze frames opening a menu, that only happens occasionally, i maintain 40-60 fps outside of horde nights, with exception to some locations.  

Just to give you a likely cause of this specifically, every 20 minutes, there is a call for UnloadUnusedAssets.  On my game, this always coincides with a freeze when opening a menu or container.  In some cases, especially on the pregen maps, it can last up to 3-4 minutes, though on RWG maps, it is usually less than 10-15 seconds.  Not sure that is any use for you, but wanted to give you a possible reason for that part of your problem.  Press F1 during the freeze and when the freeze ends, if the last line says that, then you're experiencing the same problem I am.

 

As for the rest, I don't seem to have any extra lag during horde night even with many traps running at once and 30-40 or so zombies attacking at once.  I'm on a computer that was mid range four years ago, so low level by today's standards.  I'm not sure what causes the wide range of experiences in this game.  Might be the server or specific computer hardware.

[AmishMan53]

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

Just to give you a likely cause of this specifically, every 20 minutes, there is a call for UnloadUnusedAssets.  On my game, this always coincides with a freeze when opening a menu or container.  In some cases, especially on the pregen maps, it can last up to 3-4 minutes, though on RWG maps, it is usually less than 10-15 seconds.  Not sure that is any use for you, but wanted to give you a possible reason for that part of your problem.  Press F1 during the freeze and when the freeze ends, if the last line says that, then you're experiencing the same problem I am.

 

As for the rest, I don't seem to have any extra lag during horde night even with many traps running at once and 30-40 or so zombies attacking at once.  I'm on a computer that was mid range four years ago, so low level by today's standards.  I'm not sure what causes the wide range of experiences in this game.  Might be the server or specific computer hardware.

 

Tons of appreciation for addressing the issue and not picking at wording or trying to find some "gotcha" that some responses seem to be trying to do.  I went diving into the .xml and config files seeing if their was a setting somewhere involving that, but unfortunately couldn't find anything.  I'll keep an eye on the console tho anytime a freeze frame happens and see if i can pull additional information from it.  Many thanks for that info.

 

I guess i have the question of how lengthy of play sessions you have.  My friend and I was considering resetting the game completely before horde night to see if that helps with the fps.  Through my searches i've seen many mentions of memory leaks, and issues some people have with crashes (something my friend was having) being fixed by getting more memory (in those cases the person upgraded from 8 to 16gb ram, causing the general consensus that you should have 16 minimum) and my friend happens to have 8gb.  He however reduced all his graphics settings down to near rock bottom, even removing shadows, and since hasn't had those crashes (which can definitely point to memory related).

[Riamus]

I typically play for many hours at a stretch, and the game does definitely slow down for me after a few hours.  Not sure if the amount of time is consistent or if it is random since I haven't tested it.  I definitely do better on RWG maps and with the game on SSD instead of HDD. I was playing at medium settings but without motion blur since I hate that in games.  I've recently started increasing settings and haven't noticed much slow down so far other than the normal.  Definitely not good around downtown in certain large cities or where there are skyscrapers, of course.

[Roland]

10 hours ago, Riamus said:

I'm not sure what causes the wide range of experiences in this game.  Might be the server or specific computer hardware.

 

Possibly proportional to the number of spotlights installed...

 

(gotcha Amish!)

[JCrook1028]

16 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

friend happens to have 8gb.  He however reduced all his graphics settings down to near rock bottom, even removing shadows

Shadows are indeed very expensive hardware wise and running them at 8 gig can certainly cause issues. Reflections are bad also. It's not really graphics alone that are the issue. It's CPU and RAM just as much. This game in intensive across the entire PC.

[meganoth]

On 9/23/2022 at 1:41 AM, AmishMan53 said:

1080p.. tho that's not the fps counter from the game, but rather nvidia

 

I have a similar machine, ryzen 5 2600x with RX580. I get 90 fps normal and huge dips on horde nights, but still very much playable at about 40 FPS I think(?). No problem at all with aiming and hitting targets at horde night, at 1080p.

 

But I turned off shadows and reflections completely and also turned off dynamic meshes (separate tab in the configs menue).

 

I also heard that external gaming tools often make problems with the game, not a problem I would be able to get as I am playing on Linux 😉

 

If this doesn't help (or you want to keep shadows turned on), turn down the resolution one step.

 

 

Edited September 25, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Trankitas]

When are Dinosaurs coming to the game? I would love to ride a D-Rex 

[bdubyah]

2 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

 

Define "plenty." It often sounds like you guys don't actually play your own game.

Do you struggle currently to find murky water? It's in every toilet almost, plus several other places quite often. Plenty can mean several different things, but the meaning here is if you don't want to use the collector you can still survive, you'll just have to look for it more.

 

Or as MM would say if he ever popped in anymore: "GET OFF YOUR ASS!" 😂

[Old Crow]

18 minutes ago, bdubyah said:

Do you struggle currently to find murky water? It's in every toilet almost, plus several other places quite often. Plenty can mean several different things, but the meaning here is if you don't want to use the collector you can still survive, you'll just have to look for it more.

 

Or as MM would say if he ever popped in anymore: "GET OFF YOUR ASS!" 😂

I suppose it's more of a concern in multiplayer servers. The server I play on typically has at least 3-4 of us, and early one we still struggle with food and water in A20.

That said, given the apparent size of the dew collectors vs how much water they output.. they seem a little big. a 3x3x4 item should be generating more than just 3 bottles of water per day. If they want to keep it to three per day, fine, but given that the model is simple a plastic barrel and an umbrella, 2x2x2 seems more reasonable.

[bdubyah]

45 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

we still struggle with food and water

I...

 

Isn't that the point?!?

[unholyjoe]

2 hours ago, bdubyah said:

I...

 

Isn't that the point?!?

precisely... thanks

 

the game is about survival not living on a cruise ship sailing the bahamas... (and no i am not saying we will have cruise ships)

BUT... if that is how some want to play, they can always turn off spawns and turn on creative mode. after all, thats why we have those options. and also... they can find or create mods as well.

 

 

ALSO... "Define "plenty." It often sounds like you guys don't actually play your own game."

 

well hell the jigg is up, i guess i have to purchase 7dtd just so i have to play it now.

 

of course that was me joking but yeah... 14K+ hrs here and that wasnt from playing other games (which i do as well).

 

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by unholyjoe (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

6 hours ago, Cr0wst0rm said:

I just literally did say you can use LODs, how do you think GTA IV handles most of its characters? 🤦‍♂️ Even game from 2008 has this as a feature, so why not here?

And same goes for textures, you can game on 50 different textures with over 2k res with good mipmap streaming bias settings with reasonable memory usage (like ~1 gig ram usage)

I haven't seen many vanilla models that don't use lod's.

[Adam the Waster]

4 hours ago, bdubyah said:

I...

 

Isn't that the point?!?

water now more so i guess.
gotta eat them jars!!!

(im not going to start that again)

7 hours ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

 

 

Maybe a sequel will use something different, maybe it won’t feature a fully destructible world and have more zombies

i wouldn't mind if in (7DTD2) if they did something like ARK, conan, rush ETC.

or even something like unturned
 

but making stuff underground would be missed greatly.  

[Adam the Waster]

and about zombie models. i would have done something like what Dying light 1 did
"make alot of the zombies look the same in terms of faces" the issue i see is that that give zombies too much personality like

they add so much detail, ill uses the biker or solder as a example 

Bikers have tons of tatoos, beard, and stuff like pins, bagges and Logos. 
Solders have their guts open, a bullet hole in the head. 

A good example i would give is the hazmat zombie and burnt zombie
Basic look, hazmat dude that turned.... nothing more. 
Burnt zombie is burned..... the end 

if it were up too me, i would have a few faces that look the same-ish. and make the cloths more plain. 


 

[Fanatical_Meat]

1 hour ago, Adam the Waster said:

water now more so i guess.
gotta eat them jars!!!

(im not going to start that again)

i wouldn't mind if in (7DTD2) if they did something like ARK, conan, rush ETC.

or even something like unturned
 

but making stuff underground would be missed greatly.  

Agreed however would the lack of digging outside of very defined areas make the game better overall.

solves the problem of breaking into POIs the easy way and let’s say it allowed 3x the zombies and far more variation in those zombies. I think that would be a worthy trade.

[RipClaw]

7 hours ago, bdubyah said:

Do you struggle currently to find murky water? It's in every toilet almost, plus several other places quite often. Plenty can mean several different things, but the meaning here is if you don't want to use the collector you can still survive, you'll just have to look for it more.

Actually, at the moment you can find more paper than murky water in toilets exactly as defined in loot.xml.

<lootgroup name="groupToilet01">
        <item name="drinkJarRiverWater" count="1" loot_prob_template="med"/>
        <item name="resourcePaper" count="1,3" loot_prob_template="high"/>
</lootgroup>

And from what I have read, in A21 the amount of water that can be found in other loot containers will be significantly reduced.

 

Roland once gave an overview of how much murky water he finds in kitchens in A21 and that is significantly less than you currently find. Clean water and empty jars are no longer found at all in A21.

 

7 hours ago, bdubyah said:

Or as MM would say if he ever popped in anymore: "GET OFF YOUR ASS!" 😂

It's interesting how everything is defined as "sitting on your butt" where you doesn't stand in front of a loot container and press E. According to this definition, if you work in the mine, you sit on your butt, and if you build a base, you sit on your butt.
 

Edited September 27, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[bdubyah]

11 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Actually, at the moment you can find more paper than murky water in toilets exactly as defined in loot.xml.

Sheesh. Splitting hairs a bit here, aren't we? I see murky water still has a "med" probability. And there sure are a lot of toilets about...

 

12 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

It's interesting how everything is defined as "sitting on your butt" where you doesn't stand in front of a loot container and press E. According to this definition, if you work in the mine, you sit on your butt, and if you build a base, you sit on your butt.

One, that was just throwing out the old MM joke, while poking fun at someone saying finding enough water is a *gasp* struggle, so calm down. Was just meaning if they are struggling, maybe they aren't prioritizing food/water. Two, I never said anything other than looting a container is "sitting on your butt". I actually never said that at all, but keep reaching. And I would say working in a mine is going to a resource and collecting it, you know, like going to toilets and getting murky water. Er, I mean paper...

[beerfly]

10 hours ago, Trankitas said:

When are Dinosaurs coming to the game? I would love to ride a D-Rex 

When the Time Machine is implemented in A24.

 

Roland told me not to say anything about that, but that`s how we will meet with The Duke.. I mean the D-Rex 😇

Edited September 27, 2022 by beerfly (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

8 minutes ago, Pyrrhrick said:

Just a question regarding balance.

 

With murky water being much harder to obtain (i.e. only via looting) it means glue and therefore duct tape will be harder to obtain (especially for recipes which require a lot). For example, a box of exploding arrows would be an approx 60 toilets looted.

 

Just wondering whether this change accompanies balance changes to impacted recipes?

As far as I have read, you should find more glue and duct tape in loot. In addition, the recipe for glue was changed so that you now need clean water.

If you want to craft a lot of glue then you will need several dew collectors. For 100 glue per week you will probably need 6 dew collectors.