Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[NekoPawtato]

11 minutes ago, Pyrrhrick said:

Yeh couldn't agree more, which is why I suggested just having a blue line (like the green one for LCB) in the UI. It at least gives players the knowledge of when a base becomes too large to be functional as a base - leaves it up to them. Currently it's an unknown which especially for new players / people who don't read the forums / go into XML might be confusing.

Are you talking about adding another option to the LCB to toggle on/off lines for spawning? Im not sure how that works with blood moon since from what I understand the spawn is relative to your location and not the lcb. So I'd imagine these lines would have to move as you move around the base.

Edited October 7, 2022 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[Roland]

7 minutes ago, VestedStorm6108 said:

This IS the issue. Those people don't WANT to craft. They want to be out in the world exploring, looting, or killing. Whereas I WANT to craft, mine, and build, but now am being forced to go out and loot for the magazines that scale with how many magazines I have. Especially since the magazines ONLY effect crafting and not how effective those tools, weapons, armor are.

 

Then they won't care about reading any of the magazines. The magazines are only for unlocking crafting recipes. They will bring them all back for you to read or they should if they understand how they work. You admitted yourself that some people in your group love being the mules who bring back all the loot for the homebodies to use. In A21 that will be magazines just like it is other stuff now. Really, not much of a change.

 

If your buddies really don't care about crafting as you say then they will have zero incentive to read any of the magazines. Those will be brought home by your other buddies the mules and read by you so that you can do what you love---crafting.

 

But...since you're just going to wait until it all gets reverted it doesn't matter anyway. Just wait for the mod and keep playing A20. It really isn't a problem if you do that.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, NekoPawtato said:

Are you talking about adding another option to the LCB to toggle on/off lines for spawning? Im not sure how that works with blood moon since from what I understand the spawn is relative to your location and not the lcb. So I'd imagine these lines would have to move as you move around the base.

Fair criticism. Although if your base exceeded the 'blue line' you'd know for a fact you would have issues.

 

If it didn't, you'd know 100% wherever you were in your base you'd be ok. Could even be used to determine outside and inner walls / core base area.

 

It was a solution I pulled out my bum though haha. What we have now (i.e. guess work) should be able to be improved upon some way though, even if my idea is terrible .

Edited October 7, 2022 by Pyrrhrick (see edit history)

[Roland]

What we probably need is to better communicate that the LCB is not meant stop Horde Night Spawns. It's main purpose is to protect your claimed area from non-friendly players and so that you can pick up your workstations. The idea that you should be able to build within your claimed zone and have no spawns within that zone is based on faulty assumptions. It is probably poorly communicated by the game and so causes confusion and people thinking it is buggy spawns.

[VestedStorm6108]

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Then they won't care about reading any of the magazines. The magazines are only for unlocking crafting recipes. They will bring them all back for you to read or they should if they understand how they work. You admitted yourself that some people in your group love being the mules who bring back all the loot for the homebodies to use. In A21 that will be magazines just like it is other stuff now. Really, not much of a change.

 

If your buddies really don't care about crafting as you say then they will have zero incentive to read any of the magazines. Those will be brought home by your other buddies the mules and read by you so that you can do what you love---crafting.

 

But...since you're just going to wait until it all gets reverted it doesn't matter anyway. Just wait for the mod and keep playing A20. It really isn't a problem if you do that.

I think this is a bit of a misunderstanding. So let me try and clarify or learn as best as I can.

I understand that they will still be able to haul back the magazines to a base. But reading the confirmed features makes it sound like if the looters do not put perk points into what the crafter would need (tools, weapons, armor class, or other) they have a much less chance of getting those magazines. Which would cripple the crafters ability to craft what was in those magazines and almost force that crafter to loot with others to have a better chance of finding the mags that they would need.

And I want to be able to play the newest versions of course. The new water stuff and new pois alone is an absolutely to die for thing. Relying on mods to do a game devs job should always be a last resort thing and typically for more qol features then entire core mechanics.

[Roland]

1 minute ago, VestedStorm6108 said:

I understand that they will still be able to haul back the magazines to a base. But reading the confirmed features makes it sound like if the looters do not put perk points into what the crafter would need (tools, weapons, armor class, or other) they have a much less chance of getting those magazines.

 

The confirmed features list does not say that you have much less chance of getting magazines you haven't perked into. The list says that you find more parts and magazines of what you perk into. You are letting your fear of what it might be like overwhelm you. The bonus your perk gives you is subtle and mainly designed to prevent you from never finding a magazine or part that you need for crafting. It guarantees that you will find some of that type and not that you will only find those and nothing else.

 

5 minutes ago, VestedStorm6108 said:

Which would cripple the crafters ability to craft what was in those magazines and almost force that crafter to loot with others to have a better chance of finding the mags that they would need.

 

I'm not going to lie. Finding magazines is fun and most players are definitely going to feel an incentive to go out and find magazines. That being said I doubt anyone who is playing multiplayer as you described your group will feel forced to do it. Single Players will definitely need to loot magazines in order to progress their crafting recipes but the team you describe will be just fine with you not participating in the looting. Of course, it is random so there may be times when you feel like you aren't getting enough of a type you want and you may experience a moment of "If you want something done right you gotta do it yourself" and get to doing some looting.

 

9 minutes ago, VestedStorm6108 said:

Relying on mods to do a game devs job should always be a last resort thing and typically for more qol features then entire core mechanics.

 

Reverting the new features to legacy features isn't the dev's job. The dev's job is to develop and many of the features in the game are still being developed and are subject to change. You bought an unfinished game so if a modder reverts something to the way it used to be, that is fantastic news for anyone who wants it the way it used to be. But don't mistake that with the modder doing the dev's job. It's not.

[VestedStorm6108]

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

The confirmed features list does not say that you have much less chance of getting magazines you haven't perked into. The list says that you find more parts and magazines of what you perk into. You are letting your fear of what it might be like overwhelm you. The bonus your perk gives you is subtle and mainly designed to prevent you from never finding a magazine or part that you need for crafting. It guarantees that you will find some of that type and not that you will only find those and nothing else.

 

 

I'm not going to lie. Finding magazines is fun and most players are definitely going to feel an incentive to go out and find magazines. That being said I doubt anyone who is playing multiplayer as you described your group will feel forced to do it. Single Players will definitely need to loot magazines in order to progress their crafting recipes but the team you describe will be just fine with you not participating in the looting. Of course, it is random so there may be times when you feel like you aren't getting enough of a type you want and you may experience a moment of "If you want something done right you gotta do it yourself" and get to doing some looting.

 

 

Reverting the new features to legacy features isn't the dev's job. The dev's job is to develop and many of the features in the game are still being developed and are subject to change. You bought an unfinished game so if a modder reverts something to the way it used to be, that is fantastic news for anyone who wants it the way it used to be. But don't mistake that with the modder doing the dev's job. It's not.

I appreciate the responses. I suppose I'll just have to wait and see when it eventually comes out and see if it interacts with my groups playstyle.

[Falcon197]

59 minutes ago, Roland said:

I just hope that "game systems supporting that" doesn't translate to the devs preventing players from building past a certain radius because there are plenty of people who like to build large and don't use that large base for horde night. It would be a shame to have to be limited on how big we can build just because some people want to make sure nothing can be built that doesn't work for horde night.

 

One more passing thought I'd add to this on the matter of balancing the size of bases is that if I correctly understood what was mentioned earlier about the distance from players for horde spawns being ~35 blocks - that also creates a chance of imbo spawning inside of bases that only fill a quarter of a max-size LCB if the defenders ever move too far from the portion of the claim occupied from the base.

 

So even building smaller may not matter in the grander scheme of the spawn mechanics.  I could envision zombies still popping up inside a base or perimeter wall on setups like this, where the LCB radius is big and placed to cover farms or other stuff outside the base, but even if the radius was 71 and the base size ~40, everyone moving to engage horde spawns in one corner of their base still opens the possibility for spawns to shift behind them and end up inside the wall / base.

 

Really appreciate the consideration though, @Roland!

 

[Roland]

14 minutes ago, VestedStorm6108 said:

I appreciate the responses. I suppose I'll just have to wait and see when it eventually comes out and see if it interacts with my groups playstyle.

 

I hope it does or if not only slight changes in what you do are necessary or if not it turns out that the new way is at least as much fun or if not the modders come to your rescue.

[Falcon197]

Quote

What we probably need is to better communicate that the LCB is not meant stop Horde Night Spawns. It's main purpose is to protect your claimed area from non-friendly players and so that you can pick up your workstations. The idea that you should be able to build within your claimed zone and have no spawns within that zone is based on faulty assumptions. It is probably poorly communicated by the game and so causes confusion and people thinking it is buggy spawns.

 

Also agree with this, but I'd challenge the logic on making LCB's totally irrelevant to the horde spawning equation.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Falcon197 (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Falcon197 said:

 

Also agree with this, but I'd challenge the logic on making LCB's totally irrelevant to the horde spawning equation.

 

LCBs were created for multiplayer. There was a time they didn't exist and we still had to defend against zombies coming for our bases. So for anyone who was around pre-LCB and then saw it added as an anti-griefer device, there wasn't necessarily any logical connection conveyed that it was supposed to stop zombies spawning. We did have our bedroll for ages before the LCB which WAS supposed to stop spawns within a radius and there were plenty of bugs and lots of development that went into that but not really the LCB other than making sure teammates were recognized and workstations able to be picked up.

 

In fact, we could make multiple LCBs in the beginning to extend our claimed area and have redundant protection against other players. Nobody used them to try and completely block out all horde night spawns because that wasn't what they were for. A few alphas back they reduced them to only one active LCB at a time per person.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Jinx_DG]

1 hour ago, Falcon197 said:

Also agree with this, but I'd challenge the logic on making LCB's totally irrelevant to the horde spawning equation.

I understand your concern and the reasons why. I also was taken aback when zeds spawned inside my home base even tho I had built a horde base not to far away. The "not to far away" was the problem. For me, lesson learned, Lol. 

 

Your thinking in purely game function mode. How the mechanics work and how you would like them to work, logically. I respect that. Now I'm going to ask you to set logic and game mechanics aside and offer you an explaination that is purely game lore. An explaination that fits the premise of the game. 

 

The game wants you dead. It's only function is to kill you. You're allowed 7 days to prepare before the Blood Moon Horde desends upon you to fullfill it's objective. This is the real survival test. Everything before that is just a tease, a poke, a prode, an interferance to your preperations. The Blood Moon Horde ALWAYS knows where you are. It ALWAYS makes a beeline to you at a rate of speed unseen before. NOTHING can hinder it. It's function is to find you and kill you. That's the core of this game. 

 

If the LCB is changed to prevent the Blood Moon Horde from spawning (in an area), then that LCB is a hinderance to the Hordes function, which at it's core is not allowed. The LCB can not be allowed to interfere with that Blood Moon Horde Night. Nothing is allowed to interfere with their objective to get to you, by any means and kill you. Except what you have prepared in the time allowed. Not even game mechanics or function. Without that there would be no 7 Days To Die. 

Edited October 7, 2022 by Jinx_DG (see edit history)

[Falcon197]

15 minutes ago, Jinx_DG said:

The Blood Moon Horde ALWAYS knows where you are. It ALWAYS makes a beeline to you at a rate of speed unseen before. NOTHING can hinder it. It's function is to find you and kill you. That's the core of this game. 

 

Tell that to every cheeseball base builder who abuses the voxel system and AI pathing to create infinite loops so they can claim they've mastered the game lol.

 

My objective isn't to hinder the blood moon.  It's to establish sensible conditions for viable (not impervious) base defense.  What's the point of building a base or walls if the "spirit of the game" reserves the right to render all that work useless by spawning zombies to circumvent those defenses?  Why not simply get rid of building altogether at that point?

 

I appreciate the thought, but I think you misunderstand where I'm coming at this from.  I'm content to have the horde bust down my defenses and kill me - but not by spawning hordes ad hoc inside my walls.

[NekoPawtato]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

The idea that you should be able to build within your claimed zone and have no spawns within that zone is based on faulty assumptions.

I believe I read somewhere that LCB does protect against POI sleeper respawn (does it?) If it's true, then I could see how people might make incorrect assumptions by extending that logic to blood moon spawns

 

Especially when people make threads like these asking "how do I stop zombies from spawning in my POI?" and people say LCB/Bedrolls prevent spawns, it might be implied they mean sleeper spawns, but since it's not clear it could be interpreted as all spawns

https://www.reddit.com/r/7daystodie/comments/ih8t06/is_there_a_way_to_stop_zombie_spawns_at_pois/

Edited October 7, 2022 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[Riamus]

4 hours ago, VestedStorm6108 said:

This IS the issue. Those people don't WANT to craft. They want to be out in the world exploring, looting, or killing. Whereas I WANT to craft, mine, and build, but now am being forced to go out and loot for the magazines that scale with how many magazines I have. Especially since the magazines ONLY effect crafting and not how effective those tools, weapons, armor are.

It's a lose-lose for everyone involved.

I think in a group with decent people, you can work it out that they will give you the magazines if you are crafting and they aren't.  As you said, it won't help them to use the magazines if they aren't creating anyhow.  If you aren't in a group willing to do that, then maybe a better group would be a good thing? 😁

[Riamus]

3 hours ago, Falcon197 said:

 

One more passing thought I'd add to this on the matter of balancing the size of bases is that if I correctly understood what was mentioned earlier about the distance from players for horde spawns being ~35 blocks - that also creates a chance of imbo spawning inside of bases that only fill a quarter of a max-size LCB if the defenders ever move too far from the portion of the claim occupied from the base.

 

So even building smaller may not matter in the grander scheme of the spawn mechanics.  I could envision zombies still popping up inside a base or perimeter wall on setups like this, where the LCB radius is big and placed to cover farms or other stuff outside the base, but even if the radius was 71 and the base size ~40, everyone moving to engage horde spawns in one corner of their base still opens the possibility for spawns to shift behind them and end up inside the wall / base.

 

Really appreciate the consideration though, @Roland!

 

I think the biggest difficulty is that the safe spawn zone is defined by distance from you and other players and not on your LCB.  So every time you move, the safe zone changes.  It might be nice if you could have a "ping" button that would temporarily show the safe distance from where you are.  You could then stand where you expect to be during horde night and get an idea of where the safe borders are.  It wouldn't be tied in any way with the LCB.

 

That said, I think that the LCB area should be the size that if you were to stand in one corner, the opposite corner is still safe.  If that means shrinking the LCB to accommodate it, that may be okay.  Unfortunately, the limitation on moving things outside of your LCB means shrinking it would be a pain for people with large bases.  I'd really like it if you could have multiple LCB placed, but only one active at a time by toggling which one you want active.  That would allow you to build large bases without having to destroy and rebuild LCB blocks anytime you want to move things that aren't within the current LCB.  It would also benefit everyone who had a separate horde base.  The limitation on only one active at a time would help to prevent any issues they may have with players having multiple LCB, though perhaps not all.  I'm not sure the issues involved.

[Roland]

The problem  comes back to the limitations imposed by the game. The zombies can only spawn outward from the player so far before they simply fall out of the world. The minimum distance is 35 blocks but the maximum isn’t much further. They had reduce the maximum not too long ago because spawns were falling out of the world and people weren’t getting horde nights. 
 

So it is a function of what the game can literally not do and that is to accommodate players who build large bases that extend past the minimum spawn distance. If you do that you will get spawns inside your base. It has nothing to do with how much area you can land claim. Those are unrelated. 
 

The devs are unlikely to allow people to simply pave over every square meter to prevent spawns. If they see that happening then they will probably allow spawns on water and player placed blocks as backups if no grass can be found in the spawning region. 
 

Building a base so large that it in order for the game to find a place to spawn bloodmoon enemies that they are just going to fall out of the world is not a problem with the game, it is a user problem. 
 

For horde night bases to work properly they must be smaller than the minimum spawn distance. Period. There are plenty of creative base ideas that can be done within those parameters. 
 

Mega-bases can still be done but just not used for horde night if having some interior spawns are problematic. Many people choose to have an everyday base and a horde night base. If you want a mega-base then it should be your everyday base and then keep a smaller but still creative horde night base on the side. 
 

It could be that distances might extend farther out in the future but we shouldn’t expect it—especially not for A21.  At any rate, there is no bug. The LCB is not intended as a protection against bloodmoon spawns so it doesn’t check for them and there is no plan to have them check for them. 

[Kalex]

21 hours ago, VestedStorm6108 said:

 This implementation is absolutely atrocious and I will refuse to play it until mods revert it, or its changed back to at least a20 system.

You don't know that A21 system is horrible because you haven't ACTUALLY PLAYED IT.

[AmishMan53]

On 9/25/2022 at 5:54 AM, meganoth said:

 

I have a similar machine, ryzen 5 2600x with RX580. I get 90 fps normal and huge dips on horde nights, but still very much playable at about 40 FPS I think(?). No problem at all with aiming and hitting targets at horde night, at 1080p.

 

But I turned off shadows and reflections completely and also turned off dynamic meshes (separate tab in the configs menue).

 

I also heard that external gaming tools often make problems with the game, not a problem I would be able to get as I am playing on Linux 😉

 

If this doesn't help (or you want to keep shadows turned on), turn down the resolution one step.

 

 

 

I see.. yeah i don't like the concept of turning off shadows lol.  Reflections i can do without, so maybe i'll try removing those completely (if i hadn't already, tho i imagine i might have them set to low).  As far as external gaming tools.. I don't think i use any.  I'm sure nvidia has some kind of tool in the background, if that's what you mean, but otherwise gaming tools feels like a broad-in-scope term and i can only really think of things that might be considered hacky (cheat engine, wallhacks and aimbots).

 

@bdubyah Using your vehicle mod, love it, tho can say the Duster was a terrible first pick (or maybe the best if you want a progression XD) lol.  Any chance i can dm you a couple small .xml files to see why my buff isn't clearing when the timer runs out?  I've mostly been referencing the original 7 days docs to figure out how to implement my own stuff, and so far i have an item from the farmlife mod (doesn't originally have a use) to be use-able and apply my own buff with it's own icon and everything works... roughly.  At first it applied the correct amount of duration, but now it just is acting very weird (where it supposed to give an hour, it gives like 8min, and sometimes the second counter goes into negative.. some weird stuff).  If not maybe point me to a good place for such question and debug help?  The modding section here doesn't seem to have a "mod help" section that's specifically relevent to getting such help.

[Melange]

2 hours ago, Kalex said:

You don't know that A21 system is horrible because you haven't ACTUALLY PLAYED IT.

True, we don't know. But it isn't going to be the environment we've all become acustomed to. Come back @Kalex when its released, and tell us how much you like the change. We'll chat again.

[Blake_]

Hi ! any news about a21? Or is the Twitchcon being just a cosplay event with the Integration feature and a very bald and gentle man entertaining the 7dtd booth's visitors?

[Naz]

You can estimate the gains in performance you would get from features like dlss by simply running under your monitors native resolution. You obviously won't get the image quality benifits but it can show you how much performance you could get if it was hypothetically implemented in 7dtd (which doesn't look likely) 

 

If 1080p is your native res run the game at 720p and see if you get anything significant from that. However 7dtd is heavy cpu bound so chances are these upscaling technologies will do little to nothing for you in 7dtd even if it was implimented. 

 

It depends heavily on your hardware and the resolution you're running but I'd wager for the vast majority it wouldn't make any appreciable difference unfortunately. 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Naz (see edit history)

[beerfly]

Off of the topic, but when is A21 release date ? 

 

*Running away...Oh, Roland hi, hello sir, it was the other guy I swear*

 

*Helpp*

[unholyjoe]

14 minutes ago, beerfly said:

Off of the topic, but when is A21 release date ? 

 

*Running away...Oh, Roland hi, hello sir, it was the other guy I swear*

 

*Helpp*

right.. like i think it was your twin brother you never had.

 

as for the release date, 3 words come to mind!

Spoiler

i'm not saying

 

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Naz said:

You can estimate the gains in performance you would get from features like dlss by simply running under your monitors native resolution. You obviously won't get the image quality benifits but it can show you how much performance you could get if it was hypothetically implemented in 7dtd (which doesn't look likely) 

 

If 1080p is your native res run the game at 720p and see if you get anything significant from that. However 7dtd is heavy cpu bound so chances are these upscaling technologies will do little to nothing for you in 7dtd even if it was implimented. 

 

It depends heavily on your hardware and the resolution you're running but I'd wager for the vast majority it wouldn't make any appreciable difference unfortunately. 

 

But even though it is CPU bound you can see fps go down above a specific resolution. In a quick test my PC showed 100 FPS no matter what resolution up to 3k I set in windowed mode. But above 3k I could see FPS go down until it was half at 4k. So presumably for me DLSS would help if I had a 3k monitor.