Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Survager]

4 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

See?  Harder without the dew collector, while still making a dew collector cool.  And I didn't even have to remove anything from the game. 

Most likely the reason was to forbid players from using rivers and lakes to extract water, since making water flowable will not work, and everything else is an attempt to justify it... a failed attempt... maybe in the future it will still be finalized, but it can not be left in this form!

[zztong]

2 hours ago, FranticDan said:

new storage can be added, for example: early game we could craft an Iced Cooler, made from polymer and snow which when placed could last say 2 real hours

 

In a cooler, you could do something like use Snowballs as fuel to stave off spoilage. Electricity could power refrigerators late game.

[Guppycur]

1 minute ago, zztong said:

 

In a cooler, you could do something like use Snowballs as fuel to stave off spoilage. Electricity could power refrigerators late game.

Yeh there are lots of great spoilage ideas, but they're pushing for gold and by the time we see something here it's already set in stone.  It ain't like it was in the good old days, but then again those days are probably why the game is still in alpha.

 

I don't blame tfp for their decisions, they gotta do right by them, but it doesn't mean I gotta agree *with* the decisions.  But I also fully acknowledge that not only have I gotten way more than my monies worth with the game, but also I'm not a dev so my voice doesn't, and rightfully shouldn't, matter. 

 

Thankfully some of the devs had some good forsight and exposed a lot of this stuff to XML and we can change it; even though some newer features don't offer the ease of modding (looking at you, turrets and drones!), there is still a lot of modding that can be done.  And that's entirely thanks to tfp and members of their staff. 

 

But back on topic?  Losing bottles is just weird. 

[Catdaddy]

4 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Losing bottles is just weird. 

Agree. So is stacking them.

 

So keep jars in game, but never stackable, full or empty.

 

This way they still exist but are extremely inefficient to abuse.

 

You could still take a backpack full of single jars to the river and fill them one at a time for a few days of water, if you want. You enjoy that. I'll be over there setting up my fancy new dew collector farm.

 

Win/win? 

Edited July 24, 2022 by Catdaddy (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

And another good and simple idea to make it harder without having to remove something. 

[zztong]

10 minutes ago, Catdaddy said:

So keep jars in game, but never stackable, full or empty.

 

There is a certain appealing simplicity to this, and maybe stacking of "1" is ultimately what it takes to make a game of it, or 5, 10 or 20 ... we see that 125 makes it trivial.

[meilodasreh]

5 hours ago, Guppycur said:

6 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

 

Absolutely.  But you may want to look at the post I was responding to.  

Nevermind. I thought about it, and now I somehow doubt that it is even necessary to keep the game easy/accessible for players that are absolutely new to the game.

Is has been in early access for so long now, that one could think everybody who wants to play the game already has got it,

so when it is finally going gold, every newbie already has at least 1000hours of experience. 😀

[Haidrgna]

16 minutes ago, Catdaddy said:

Agree. So is stacking them.

 

So keep jars in game, but never stackable, full or empty.

 

This way they still exist but are extremely inefficient to abuse.

 

You could still take a backpack full of single jars to the river and fill them one at a time for a few days of water, if you want. You enjoy that. I'll be over there setting up my fancy new dew collector farm.

 

Win/win? 

 You do realize this will and should also make any other jar non stackable right, so all drinks, even those from your dew collector that now need to also be supplied with clean jars.

[meilodasreh]

12 minutes ago, Haidrgna said:

 You do realize this will and should also make any other jar non stackable right, so all drinks, even those from your dew collector that now need to also be supplied with clean jars.

Aren't stacksizes determined individually for every item, independent from one may or may not be an ingredient for another?

And the "should be" part: well let's not start the "why can I carry 6000m³ of concrete but only one piece of XY" thingy.

 

Edited July 24, 2022 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

All I see here are speculations... I have a proposal for The Fun Pimps: please give a courtesy copy of the current A21 revision to both @Guppycur and @KhaineGB and let them give you feedback about how they feel the water change is by actually testing it.

 

At least after that, if they trash the changes, they'll do it knowledgeably. 

[Guppycur]

Yeh you can make empty's be the only ones non stackable, since it's its own item.

 

...but also, remember there's going to be an influx of new users from the casual console types.  Probably more than PC.

1 minute ago, Jost Amman said:

All I see here are speculations... I have a proposal for The Fun Pimps: please give a courtesy copy of the current A21 revision to both @Guppycur and @KhaineGB and let them give you feedback about how they feel the water change is by actually testing it.

 

At least after that, if they trash the changes, they'll do it knowledgeably. 

I'd have thought that by now you'd have realized that the dev diary *is for* speculation.  Hell, Roland makes a game out of it.

 

I suppose by your standards, this should be a read-only thread, or maybe only allow suck up posts?

[Haidrgna]

15 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

Aren't stacksizes determined individually for every item, independent from one may or may not be an ingredient for another?

And the "should be" part: well let's not start the "why can I carry 6000m³ of concrete but only one piece of XY" thingy.

 

Yes stacksizes are determined per item, but makes little sense to apply the change to one if all other similar items would not have that change done to them, that was my point. So if we would go with making each 'jar' or canteen or whatever we use to carry liquid in item would stack to one, it would be odd if once they are filled they suddenly stack to 10 again.

The concrete argument is your fabrication, not mine.

[meilodasreh]

16 minutes ago, Haidrgna said:

Yes stacksizes are determined per item, but makes little sense to apply the change to one if all other similar items would not have that change done to them, that was my point.

There already are lots of those things you call "would be weird".

You can carry 125 murky water in one stack, but all the "processed" stuff like coffee, boiled water, teas and so on only stack to 10.

I always thought that doesn't make sense, but only for reasons of balancing.

Concrete is just the extreme example in that context.

 

[JCrook1028]

2 hours ago, FranticDan said:

eventually you'll run out of POI's with water and will have to resort to melting snow, each block of snow gives 5 snowballs and it takes 5 snowballs to make 1 water

no, that's why you build the well.

[Matt115]

21 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

 

...but also, remember there's going to be an influx of new users from the casual console types.  Probably more than PC.

 

This is not explanation - you have hard and complexed games on consoles. Just they want to get the most wide player base. 

That's why i love NMRIH - some "new" players wanted to removed zombie kids but  devs decided not because the oldest ( people conneted with this game since begining ) fans accepted that game is not for everyone - NMRINH 2 is good example why it's better to focus on "hardenst" fans not on getting more and more of them

[Callum123456789]

23 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Radiation is an incredibly underused facet of this game ... 

Agreed since a nuclear war has happened 

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Guppycur said:

It's simpler.  Now we have magic blocks that turn into water.  That's less complicated than having to trudge out to get water, even if it's by one step.

 

Before:

Step 1) fill water bottle.

Step 2) boil water bottle.

 

A21:

Step 1) make magic block.

 

...it's not a lot of additional complication, but it is more.

 

The process to get a renewable water source is what I was referring to. You are comparing getting a jar of boiled water in A20 to getting a jar of boiled water in A21 which is not what I was talking about. Plus the recipe to make the collector is quite a bit more work than filling a water bottle and boiling it. So I will say again that for establishing a renewable drinking water source:

 

Before:

Step 1) Acquire 10+ bottles

 

A21:

Step 1) Unlock the Dew Collector Recipe

Step 2) Acquire the ingredients for 10+ Collectors

 

Its not a lot of additional complication but it is more and takes a lot longer to accomplish.

 

The alternate ideas you had while pooping and also the one that limits you to a stack of 1 bottle are interesting as well. Try simulating them and see if they play out as fun. 

 

I get it that the removal of bottles is going to cause havok for you and Khaine as modders. Whatever recipes and processes you guys put in place that requires empty bottles to be in the game are going to be kaput and you guys will have to go back and overhaul it. Maybe you can just replace empty bottles with broken glass and the forging of the broken glass into bottles part is just abstracted or mod the pot to be a filled pot which could then take the place of bottles of murky water. Who knows, maybe Allan will look at some of these ideas and incorporate some of it.

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, Guppycur said:

I'd have thought that by now you'd have realized that the dev diary *is for* speculation.  Hell, Roland makes a game out of it.

I suppose by your standards, this should be a read-only thread, or maybe only allow suck up posts?

Well, yes and no.

 

You know, by my standards, you speculate when you don't know much about something. But with the new water system, for the first time, we have a very detailed explanation of both features and gameplay "feel", from the people who are testing it. Now, I know you're not someone who trusts random people like the devs, but personally if they straight out give you a detailed report of what the new water system will be, I at least give them the benefit of the doubt and believe what they say.

 

So, basically, you and several other people (specifically the more mod-talented ones) tend to overthink the matter and/or start going in overdrive mode with your own modded solution to the game issue the devs have been trying to assess. It really looks just like a spitting contest this way.

 

To each his own I guess.

[Games'n'Grumble]

2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

All I see here are speculations... I have a proposal for The Fun Pimps: please give a courtesy copy of the current A21 revision to both @Guppycur and @KhaineGB and let them give you feedback about how they feel the water change is by actually testing it.

 

At least after that, if they trash the changes, they'll do it knowledgeably. 

Damn! If this works, then I will immediately start criticizing the new dew collector, removing cans and offering other ideas! Where is my preliminary A21??? 😅

[unholyjoe]

damn... you guys keep going you'll be trying to get the access to the builds as the devs are writing codes to them.... 😁

Edited July 24, 2022 by unholyjoe (see edit history)

[Melange]

On 7/15/2022 at 2:00 AM, Tete1805 said:

I'm not sure if this has been asked already, but could the drone get out of the way when in 'combat' mode?

At least, when I aim at something with a rifle or a crossbow and such?

Maybe it could get behind you or just on the side.

I must have skimmed over this post (*), and I agree that the drone can be annoying at times. And it is even more so when multiple players have their drones hovering around after a loot run while we all try to acces storage and there's a drone blocking. The drone can be instructed to "stay put", but one has to lead it to a "parking" spot, interact with it to tell it to quit following, then interact with it again to give the "follow me now" command. Or just place it in your backpack and be done with it until you're in a situation where it may be helpful and hopefully not get in the way of the firing line. Either way, those extra steps are both inconvenient and during combat can get one killed. Tip: Don't try and plant rows of seeds in your garden with it doddering over you. Makes me want to hit it, and if I could maybe that's something we might wish for: to be able to fist punch the darn thing to force it to get behind you. But its healing benefit during combat is awesome. Extra storage is a bonus too. A nice addition to the game, but not flawless. 

 

(*) Going back through these posts to try and understand the ramifications of the upcoming dew collector station in A21. Its still murky to me. So re-reading and trying to wring out what's to come.  Lots of jarring speculation, sometimes snowballing into argument that only muddies the waters for me. Seasoned players and those still wet behind the ears are having a regatta.  I'm still quite honestly confused. I could do with a drink.

[Melange]

1 hour ago, Games'n'Grumble said:

Damn! If this works, then I will immediately start criticizing the new dew collector, removing cans and offering other ideas! Where is my preliminary A21??? 

Somewhere between Texas and Pottsylvania. The adressee's name may cause significant delays in delivery.

[Guppycur]

Yum yum.

[Roland]

40 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

Honestly, some loot and recipe tweaks? Job done.

That would make your life easier right? 😜

[KhaineGB]

10 minutes ago, Roland said:

That would make your life easier right? 😜

Have you seen how much I re-write the loot file???

HELL NO! It'd be worse actually