Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Halcyon said:

As for the skill points freed up by Learn By Reading, i wanna guess and say that the new crafting system is going to be brutal(ly annoying) and will make that a lot harder and traders have obviously been nerfed a bit now too. So while our builds will be easier to make and more workable, the progression seems to be balanced much slower in A21 (from what we've seen obvs)

 

Actually, I been looking forward to this change now; especially the fact that you can't craft a Q5 autoshottie as soon as you can craft a Q5 double barrel.

 

But then again, I modded my game to remove the recipes from perk unlocks so it aligns more with my playstyle so me looking forward to it is natural.

 

There are some other positives about it that don't get mentioned as much (at least from my perspective):

• Old system - you randomly find schematics and will often find ones you already either unlocked or read
• New system - each time you find the magazine for that crafting skill, you increase your level with it - maybe unlocking the next Quality tier or next tier of weapon
  • This might seem minor, but seeing yourself making progress is motivating rather than finding 10 schematics and you already have all of them unlocked
•  
• Old system - you couldn't increase the odds of finding a specific schematic unless you find certain crates - which is why Crack a Book POIs were highly sought out
• New system - if you perk into Shotgun Messiah, you increase your chances of finding those magazines 
• Also New system - hints by Roland and Laz Man indicate that just going to a specific POI has a bigger chance of finding a specific magazine now
•  
• Old system - how many times have we opened up crack a book crates or looted shelves and our reward was paper?
• New system - with all of the crafting skill categories, magazines will be more abundant and a lot less paper found when search for crafting skill mags

[MechanicalLens]

29 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

If I am remembering correctly, what we have today came about around A17 - prior to that it was LBD (and not sure what it was prior to that).

 

Unless I'm mistaken (feel free to correct me), for the majority of alphas throughout this game's history - up until Alpha 12, 13, or 14, can't remember - there was no perk system at all.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, GoofMcGee said:

Maybe some small indicators, like losing control for 15 seconds where the character will just stand there appearing dazed.

 

Do you know how many bug reports we would get from a feature like this?

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Ok with one of this game are zombie game? okay you are new guy.  So you coudn't don't know what i mean. Only DL2. And dl2 spears are rly limited. 

3 updates ago is a lot in 7dtd situation. This is not  MD where updated were pretty offten.

 

Lets remember here that you complain that Halcyon is comparing this game to a non-zombie game.

.

.

.

Still remember it? Good. Just checking 😉

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

 

This is no fear. just... observation. I remember talk with my friends about hunting for jar, i saw a lot of complaining about losing a jar during cooking etc. So - if this was working good why to change? It was specific (jar while most games have bottles) and just removed loosing jar after cooking and i think it would be all - well not a lot of can be told about jars right? 

 

If something is not broken don't fix it . I never saw complain about "there is too much of water in game". 

 

TFP and Roland have given reasons why they did it, and those reasons were recapitulated by a few forum posters a few times. And since you are frequently here you can't claim you didn't hear about them.

 

If TFP could only ever change what forum posters were complaining about their choices would be severly limited.

And actually our main topic, before you made this into a rant about all changes you don't like, was sexrex. And yes, sexrex was broken because it was needed by all attributes but only cheap for strength.

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

 

Yes cool name - that's all what you need - Elden ring have godskin, Cod - overgrown, stalker - cool names of characters etc.

 

 

Oh look. Still remember your complaint from above? You are comparing 7d2d to a non-zombie game, another non-zombie game (with a small zombie mode in some of them) and another non-zombie game. 😉

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

If i hear - de dust - i think CS

when i hear - crowbar - half live2

cheeky breeky - stalker

shotgun range - cod

What about 7dtd -  miner 69er and sexsrex. what's in your opinion sounds more "characteristic"?

 

What about jars? You were saying that jars were a meme. Do you think "jars" when someone mentions 7D2D?

 

With "sexrex" I actually went to far in my argument, it is very much linked with 7D2D and I sure will mourn it for 2 seconds. But every game actually builds memes or iconic things out of overpowered items or skills, though with sexrex the word sexual in it also might have contributed to it. Either way, OP stuff has to be toned down or removed and memes come and go. All you need is renaming another perk to "buttstroke" or "Power of Jen" and 2 years from now those will be memes and a forum user named Matt319 will say 7D2D can't just remove that as it is an essential meme 😎

 

 

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

 

Depends on what you mean by not broken.  If by not broken means not having to make much of an effort to obtain water in the game, then yes, it is not broken.  But at that point, you might as well remove hydration meter and dirty water / boiled water from the game as it is trivial anyways - at most it takes up spots in your inventory.

 

If by broken you mean that it is just a trivial part of the game and really doesn't affect survivability, then re-examining the water situation and coming up with a new method is very much needed.

 

In addition, calling Sex Rex "classic" 7D2D is a stretch, a very big stretch......The current Attribute trees / Perks system we see today was no part of the original development stages in 7D2D.  If I am remembering correctly, what we have today came about around A17 - prior to that it was LBD (and not sure what it was prior to that).

 

People doesn't complained - it wasn't buggy or "too much:" under/overpowered. Sometimes water was probably - rarery. They want to rework armor system? i agree because you have light--> heavier armors progresion so that's kinda broken. so - change this + weather = faster dehydration -> you need more water.  No change directly in water but into water

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Lets remember here that you complain that Halcyon is comparing this game to a non-zombie game.

.

.

.

Still remember it? Good. Just checking 😉

ttstroke" or "Power of Jen" and 2 years from now those will be memes and a forum user named Matt319 will say 7D2D can't just remove that as it is an essential meme 😎

 

 

I should be more precise about that : 7dtd is At first is zombie game then sandbox game. So i think it was logical so that's why i made a shortcut - i think if someone here name "7dtd" think " you mean this  game with  zombies similiar to minecraft" 1.zombies 2. sandbox . Dayz... well is more know for PVP that zombies

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

 

Oh look. Still remember your complaint from above? You are comparing 7d2d to a non-zombie game, another non-zombie game (with a small zombie mode in some of them) and another non-zombie game. 😉

 

 

Here is not gameplay but "funny names" category. it's like  car - car can be both in "vehicles with engine" and " vehicles with wheels" but both categories are diffrent. 

 

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

What about jars? You were saying that jars were a meme. Do you think "jars" when someone mentions 7D2D?

 

With "sexrex" I actually went to far in my argument, it is very much linked with 7D2D and I sure will mourn it for 2 seconds. But every game actually builds memes or iconic things out of overpowered items or skills, though with sexrex the word sexual in it also might have contributed to it. Either way, OP stuff has to be toned down or removed and memes come and go. All you need is renaming another perk to "buttstroke" or "Power of Jen" and 2 years from now those will be memes and a forum user named Matt319 will say 7D2D can't just remove that as it is an essential meme 😎

 

 

 

Probably - depends how situation will looks like

but ok - what's the best know about 7dtd in memes category

 

1. Never ending alpha

2. vultures

3. jars

4. silly names of perks

 

when i see what TFP doing what will stay?

 

2. vultures

xd

 

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

TFP and Roland have given reasons why they did it, and those reasons were recapitulated by a few forum posters a few times. And since you are frequently here you can't claim you didn't hear about them.

 

If TFP could only ever change what forum posters were complaining about their choices would be severly limited.

And actually our main topic, before you made this into a rant about all changes you don't like, was sexrex. And yes, sexrex was broken because it was needed by all attributes but only cheap for strength.

 

 

 

This same cod devs made reasons why they change perks in new cod. People complaing a lot and i think remember how many people just "why?" - This same thing with LBL Yes TFP and Roland have given reaons but i think halve still are against that. Because just simple.... it worked. not perfect but worked good just good enough to not waist time on this - using TFP logic - advance engineering and lucky lotter should be removed too - advance enginnering is neccesary to improve mining like miner69 - because using both you can get much more ores that using only miner69 - this same lucky looter because increasing chance to get better tier tools if more effetive that more ores by 1 hit with weaker tool. sexrex was usefull not only for fighting but for mining/get inside Poi too because it inflenced tools too. 

Okay if this would make  like for example - miner69 will get this lower stamina use of pickaxe - this will accetable. Becuase just removing it will make tools less usefull

Edited December 14, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

People doesn't complained - it wasn't buggy or "too much:" under/overpowered. Sometimes water was probably - rarery. They want to rework armor system? i agree because you have light--> heavier armors progresion so that's kinda broken. so - change this + weather = faster dehydration -> you need more water.  No change directly in water but into water

I should be more precise about that : 7dtd is At first is zombie game then sandbox game. So i think it was logical so that's why i made a shortcut - i think if someone here name "7dtd" think " you mean this  game with  zombies similiar to minecraft" 1.zombies 2. sandbox . Dayz... well is more know for PVP that zombies

 

 

Here is not gameplay but "funny names" category. it's like  car - car can be both in "vehicles with engine" and " vehicles with wheels" but both categories are diffrent. 

 

 

 

Probably - depends how situation will looks like

but ok - what's the best know about 7dtd in memes category

 

1. Never ending alpha

2. vultures

3. jars

4. silly names of perks

 

Jars? No.

 

6 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

when i see what TFP doing what will stay?

 

2. vultures

xd

 

How will the world react to the jar meme vanishing? Will a youtuber cry in pain? Will netflix produce of movie about the vanishing?

 

I think nobody will notice the absence of a meme that wasn't there in the first place 😁

 

6 hours ago, Matt115 said:

This same cod devs made reasons why they change perks in new cod. People complaing a lot and i think remember how many people just "why?" - This same thing with LBL Yes TFP and Roland have given reaons but i think halve still are against that. Because just simple.... it worked. not perfect but worked good just good enough to not waist time on this - using TFP logic - advance engineering and lucky lotter should be removed too - advance enginnering is neccesary to improve mining like miner69

 

Advance engineering improves mining? What strange mushroom have you been smoking?

 

6 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

- because using both you can get much more ores that using only miner69 - this same lucky looter because increasing chance to get better tier tools if more effetive that more ores by 1 hit with weaker tool. sexrex was usefull not only for fighting but for mining/get inside Poi too because it inflenced tools too. 

Okay if this would make  like for example - miner69 will get this lower stamina use of pickaxe - this will accetable. Becuase just removing it will make tools less usefull

 

[NukemDed]

12 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

The increase in balance between attributes is huge. The overall decrease in difficulty is almost negligible, especially if most players simply took Strength to avoid the increased difficulty of paying for sexrex in other attributes.

 

---> A 99.983% positive change 😉

 

 

calling you out here

show me your workings

[Aldranon]

I'm a little concerned with the Skills = Magazine's thing as just going to towns and looting all the newspaper stands and mailboxes could be the new "player progression" normal routine.

 

I was thinking that completing missions should give you the very highest chance for getting Skill Magazines.  (Everything else no more than 1 or 2 percent).

And, maybe, the tier of the POI will be the maximum tier of the magazine.  This would make Tier 5 POI's worth the threat and use of ammo required (otherwise they are mostly a waste (some tier 4's are currently a waste too IMO). 

 

Sorry if this all this has been hashed over, just my 2 cents worth.

 

 

[meilodasreh]

7 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

looting all the newspaper stands and mailboxes could be the new "player progression" normal routine.

I would guess magazines will also be given as quest rewards,

maybe even with a choice (to lower the chance you get something offered that you don't need/want or already have)

 

The rest will mainly depend on how "smart" the container's loot table is balanced.

 

Everybody going out to raid book stores to boost progression is already a thing in A20.

I don't think they will make it so that the gameplay will lean even more towards that behaviour.

[Doomofman]

35 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

and I wonder what makes you think that there even is a chance

 

Supposedly Lathan hinted at the possibility on one of his streams, but that's second hand info

[Aldranon]

11 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

I would guess magazines will also be given as quest rewards,

maybe even with a choice (to lower the chance you get something offered that you don't need/want or already have)

 

The rest will mainly depend on how "smart" the container's loot table is balanced.

 

Everybody going out to raid book stores to boost progression is already a thing in A20.

I don't think they will make it so that the gameplay will lean even more towards that behaviour.

 

I really like the idea of a trader not giving you duplicates of manuals they already gave you!

 

When skills are only gotten by books/manuals this will make the small bookstores way too important.  The tier 5(?) bookstore has few places to get manuals but the one that's a part of a strip mall will be smashed into every time!    

Edited December 15, 2022 by Aldranon
spelling, as usual. (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

45 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

When skills are only gotten by books/manuals this will make the small bookstores way too important.

Duh? Where did you get that? 

Magazines have nothing to do with skill progression.

[Aldranon]

22 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Duh? Where did you get that? 

Magazines have nothing to do with skill progression.

• Crafting skill is increased by finding and reading magazines

This is from TFP

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, khzmusik said:

I do hope it turns into more of a "pinned recipe" feature. I guess we'll see how it developed when A21 drops.

According to what I have read the UI will be overhauled but not for A21. So there is a chance that this feature will be further improved. I hope for a UI similar to Undead Legacy.

 

[Shado47]

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

Advance engineering improves mining? What strange mushroom have you been smoking?

 

You don't smoke mushrooms, silly. Anything above 50°C destroys the compounds. 🙃

 

But on a more serious note: is there any water container system coming to replace glass jars? Like, DayZ for example nailed it with being able to store water in cooking pots, barrels, jerrycans, regular plastic bottles, water pouches and water canteens. Just removing glass jars seems like an odd decision. Maybe I missed something...

[Javabean867]

3 minutes ago, Shado47 said:

 

You don't smoke mushrooms, silly. Anything above 50°C destroys the compounds. 🙃

 

But on a more serious note: is there any water container system coming to replace glass jars? Like, DayZ for example nailed it with being able to store water in cooking pots, barrels, jerrycans, regular plastic bottles, water pouches and water canteens. Just removing glass jars seems like an odd decision. Maybe I missed something...

Currently there is no early water difficulty.  Spend 1 perk, make 100 jars, fill at a pond.  Removing jars from the game makes the early water more difficult.

 

You will still find servings of water, but the jar aspect of it is only in the gui.  Like bowls for soup and gas cans for gas, those will just be used as the visual.

[Uncle Al]

2 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

I would guess magazines will also be given as quest rewards,

maybe even with a choice (to lower the chance you get something offered that you don't need/want or already have)

 

The rest will mainly depend on how "smart" the container's loot table is balanced.

 

Everybody going out to raid book stores to boost progression is already a thing in A20.

I don't think they will make it so that the gameplay will lean even more towards that behaviour.

I'm fairly certain there's already been an official comment that traders will offer both a single magazine, but you know what you're getting, or a random grab bag of nine magazines, as quest rewards.

 

To add to a few of the comments made in recent posts:

 

You cannot get a 'duplicate' magazine. Unless you've maxxed out that crafting skill (so you're 60/60 or 100/100 in a certain type of crafting) then every magazine you find is useful. Magazines don't have issue numbers, they're not like books. You just have a generic 'sharp sticks' magazine and when you've found 60 of them you've mastered spear crafting.

 

Magazines don't affect skills generally, only crafting skills. The normal perk system is still in place for all non-crafting skills. (Hopefully with a fairly major revamp of the perks)

 

There's been no indication magazines have 'tiers'. The first copy of Engineering Weekly and the last one you find are identical, but they unlock different things depending on how far your skill has progressed. Although it's not been explicitly discounted that higher loot stages might skew which brand of magazine you find, the implication seems to be strongly that it's container type that has the biggest effect, with a slight modifier for which skills you're perked in.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Uncle Al (see edit history)

[Shado47]

1 hour ago, Javabean867 said:

Currently there is no early water difficulty.  Spend 1 perk, make 100 jars, fill at a pond.  Removing jars from the game makes the early water more difficult.

 

You will still find servings of water, but the jar aspect of it is only in the gui.  Like bowls for soup and gas cans for gas, those will just be used as the visual.

I mean I understand that but I find that to be a bit of a questionable creative decision. Just like the decision to use a magazine extender attachment (seriously? 😂) as opposed to implementing proper magazines of different sizes. Streamlining is the death of depth, we've seen this time and time again.

 

Like, wouldn't it be a much neater difficulty implementation to actually have to find a fuel canister to be able to pick up fuel from gas pumps? Just a fluid container system that you can freely use for either water or fuel, whatever you need it for right now? You couldn't just spend 1 perk, make 100 jars from 2 minutes of digging dirt and sand, and be set... if you had to find a proper canteen or something and then refill that, and if the crafting of water storage was more difficult than just "forging it" - for example requiring you to hunt deer, gather animal hide, tan leather, and then turn that into a water pouch instead... you'd be much more limited on water storage, the difficulty would still be there, it would actually persist into the later game as well to some degree, and overall it would just have more depth.

 

I love 7dtd, it is my fav game, I have almost 2000 hours on it on steam... but dang, streamlining really has killed a number of its systems.

I thought the best version of the skill tree was the learning by doing with additional skill point spending on special skills from Alpha 16 (and lots of mods replicate something like that these days, so it seems the community has come around to agree on that also).

I thought the best version of gun crafting was the one with molds.

I thought the best version of the health system was the final version with Wellness (just the whole thing of using antibiotics to boost it was a bit weird - fresh foods should've given wellness, thats what I think).

And I thought when the game started out with magazines as opposed to singular bullets that it would go in a similar direction to DayZ perhaps with different mag sizes as opposed to the bogus "mag extender" attachment we have now ... that would've also been sweet.

 

Idk, it feels like for every thing they improve they ruin another thing through streamlining / dumbing it down. I am still looking forward to A21, but it is gonna have a tough time beating the fun I had with A20 and A16, the two best prior versions of the game in my view.

At least cities aren't just a circle anymore. The A20 cities are brilliant.

 

  

16 hours ago, Callum123456789 said:

There used to whispers in game a very long time ago it would be cool to have them back when in cities almost like they are haunted but I highly doubt they'll be back.

 

Oh yeah the whispers at night were amazing. I miss those. The ambient sounds back then were truly haunting. Nowadays it sounds too peaceful.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Shado47 (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, Aldranon said:

• Crafting skill is increased by finding and reading magazines

This is from TFP

Sorry, but for me, crafting is not about "Skills", it's about recipes.

But now I understand why you would say that, they used the words "crafting skill" when it's just a crafting tier.

 

From your wording, I thought you were talking about the normal skill trees.

[BFT2020]

3 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Sorry, but for me, crafting is not about "Skills", it's about recipes.

But now I understand why you would say that, they used the words "crafting skill" when it's just a crafting tier.

 

From your wording, I thought you were talking about the normal skill trees.

 

Just to be clear, it is not just a crafting tier

 

As you advance your crafting skill, you unlock the ability to craft higher quality level of the item (up to Q5 based on our last information).  Eventually you unlock higher tier items but at lower quality levels.  Then you continue progressing on the specific crafting skill and unlock higher quality levels for that higher tier item.

 

You probably already know that, but it seems people have misconceptions on what these changes are doing.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

Idk, it feels like for every thing they improve they ruin another thing through streamlining / dumbing it down.

 

This feeling completely depends on a person's personal preferences. Every system you point at as having been ruined by the changes someone else will point at as having been enhanced. Each player has those aspects of the game that they appreciate depth and detail and "sim"-ness to it and those aspects that they appreciate being more streamlined and abstract and "arcade"-ish.

 

1 hour ago, Shado47 said:

Like, wouldn't it be a much neater difficulty implementation to actually have to find a fuel canister to be able to pick up fuel from gas pumps?

 

Take this suggestion, for example. I already know that if you made having a fuel canister item that was required as a tool or container for collecting gas and it had to be found in loot, there would already be people around here thinking of alternate words to "neat".  The dew collector requires that you find one of the components and there is already worry about that.

 

I'm not saying your fuel canister or canteen idea are bad. I, personally, would totally be on board for detail like that. But I recognize that such changes aren't going to have universal appeal and if the developers, themselves, are wanting the game to swing more arcade in an area where I prefer it more sim (or vice versa) then I know that I'm going to have find a mod to get what I want.

[Matt115]

13 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Advance engineering improves mining? What strange mushroom have you been smoking?

 

 

What do you need to make steel pickaxe? worbench. what do you need to make workbench?  2 lvl of AE

Steel pickaxe is better that iron --> improve o mining

Edited December 15, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Uncle Al]

7 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

What do you need to make steel pickaxe? worbench. what do you need to make workbench?  2 lvl of AE

Steel pickaxe is better that iron --> improve o mining

That's akin to saying perception improves all gun skills because demolitions expert allows cheaper gunpowder crafting.

 

There are a lot of ways to get a steel pickaxe that don't require a workbench, and a lot of ways to get a workbench that don't require INT, so this argument seems VERY stretched.

[Matt115]

2 minutes ago, Uncle Al said:

That's akin to saying perception improves all gun skills because demolitions expert allows cheaper gunpowder crafting.

 

There are a lot of ways to get a steel pickaxe that don't require a workbench, and a lot of ways to get a workbench that don't require INT, so this argument seems VERY stretched.

No. If TFP give arguments that's sexrex will be removed because influence using weapons - well sexrex influence using tools too like advance. Yes there is a lot of way - this same thing with using weapons - you can drink coffee and moonshine which are conneted with top chef

[Uncle Al]

23 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

No. If TFP give arguments that's sexrex will be removed because influence using weapons - well sexrex influence using tools too like advance. Yes there is a lot of way - this same thing with using weapons - you can drink coffee and moonshine which are conneted with top chef

Sure, if coffee gave a 50% stamina regen boost and lasted all day then master chef would be as much of a problem as Sexual Tyrannosaurus is, but it doesn't so it isn't.