Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Roland]

4 minutes ago, WarWren said:

For me skill trees are for roleplaying. Learn by looting means I won't be handicapped for choosing the role I like. A 21 fixes a lot for me.

 

For most people. Even those who are fighting tooth and nail to try and make it so nobody ever even has a chance to try the changes will likely be the loudest voices wailing when A22 releases if the Devs dare to make changes to the magazine system they introduce in A21....lol

[Aldranon]

Hopefully some Devs have looked at the thought-provoking comments of the last few pages as there are some valid points made about survival. 

My take-aways from reading are:

 

-Allow for drinking of polluted water to stop from dying from thirst but there should be a good chance that some ill effects will progressively happen.  You could eventually progress so far that the person only has so many days left to live!  Possibly, you could require some amazing adventure and process/effort to live (IE drain the blood of a radiated zombie and run it through a chem station using expensive chems (1 of each of grandpa's elixirs for example).

-Allow mixing contaminated water at the chem station to make product, but it will consume more inputs.

 

I believe that making ground water unusable after many nuclear weapons were used to try and stop the spread of zombies would absolutely make drinking ground water an act of fools. For example: Europe will have 1000 additional cancer deaths related to just one nuclear incident for the next 70 years! (that's not counting the cancers that were/will be cured.)

[meilodasreh]

28 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

As I understand it, the goal is that what you can loot, what you can craft, and what you can buy are at about the same level. 

And this is why I said I wouldn't go so far to say that there are groups of people that are being ingored. 

I assume TFP are totally aware of that and will obviously try to balance it towards you say.

 

[Roland]

29 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Only for those for whom it is balanced will it feel like the progress is adequate.

 

The people for whom the game is balanced most completely are those who play a balanced game giving their attention to building, harvesting, mining, exploring, scavenging, surviving, trading, and killing. For someone who enjoys the entire game offering they will find that they progress and learn crafting and acquire good loot and build a base and see to their survival needs in an organic and pleasing arc. For those who only wish to play a fraction of the game and ignore certain aspects they will be warping that balanced experience either to the challenging side or the exploitive side.

 

Yes, looting has gotten a huge shot of adreniline with A21 so people who refuse to balance their play to include looting are definitely going to be in for a challenge. I hope they are able to adapt their playstyle and discover that with the changes looting is more enjoyable than it has been in the past and there won't be very many people who decide the game is not for them. But ultimately, if someone hates looting and can't change that feeling then it really may be that this game in its final state is not for them.

 

But, lets hope the changes are fun for all-- enough that everyone is willing to do more scavenging and actually come to enjoy it in the new design space. We will definitely find out once the game releases.

 

 

[Zombiepoptard]

The reason that the life skills are roped in with combat skills is because the developers don't have enough combat skills to justify them being separate. Instead of making more skills they decide to put the life skills in the mix to add more fluff.

 

When alpha 17's skill tree came out I thought they were going to add a significant amount of skills to flesh out and  justify the system change. They've added a few relating to the weapons in alpha 18 but after that I don't think any skills were added.

 

It leaves much to be desired. 

 

It feels like the big dog is snoozing on 7 days to die and more focused on the other games they've been working on behind the scene.  

 

Joel where you at?! Used to be so active on the forum but now all we have is Roland. Sorry to Roland but I doubt he relays anything to the dev team. He's to busy shooting down your concerns.  

[Aldranon]

10 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

The people for whom the game is balanced most completely are those who play a balanced game giving their attention to building, harvesting, mining, exploring, scavenging, surviving, trading, and killing. For someone who enjoys the entire game offering they will find that they progress and learn crafting and acquire good loot and build a base and see to their survival needs in an organic and pleasing arc. For those who only wish to play a fraction of the game and ignore certain aspects they will be warping that balanced experience either to the challenging side or the exploitive side.

 

Yes, looting has gotten a huge shot of adreniline with A21 so people who refuse to balance their play to include looting are definitely going to be in for a challenge. I hope they are able to adapt their playstyle and discover that with the changes looting is more enjoyable than it has been in the past and there won't be very many people who decide the game is not for them. But ultimately, if someone hates looting and can't change that feeling then it really may be that this game in its final state is not for them.

 

But, lets hope the changes are fun for all-- enough that everyone is willing to do more scavenging and actually come to enjoy it in the new design space. We will definitely find out once the game releases.

 

 

 

I didn't read if this is the case or not, but as POI tier increases, loot level should not increase linearly but almost (not quite) geometrically in comparison.

 

As things are right now, tier 3 POI are the "grinding point" where I just harvest loot from.  Zero danger.   As tier 5's and some tier 4's can be "gamed" right now, maybe it's all for the best, unless some changes to the POI's are made.

[Zombiepoptard]

15 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

The people for whom the game is balanced most completely are those who play a balanced game giving their attention to building, harvesting, mining, exploring, scavenging, surviving, trading, and killing. For someone who enjoys the entire game offering they will find that they progress and learn crafting and acquire good loot and build a base and see to their survival needs in an organic and pleasing arc. For those who only wish to play a fraction of the game and ignore certain aspects they will be warping that balanced experience either to the challenging side or the exploitive side.

 

Yes, looting has gotten a huge shot of adreniline with A21 so people who refuse to balance their play to include looting are definitely going to be in for a challenge. I hope they are able to adapt their playstyle and discover that with the changes looting is more enjoyable than it has been in the past and there won't be very many people who decide the game is not for them. But ultimately, if someone hates looting and can't change that feeling then it really may be that this game in its final state is not for them.

 

But, lets hope the changes are fun for all-- enough that everyone is willing to do more scavenging and actually come to enjoy it in the new design space. We will definitely find out once the game releases.

 

 

 

I don't get this argument where you must go out to quest and loot. Who isn't doing that already? don't they have enough incentive?? If there are some people not going out to loot they must really not like that part of the game. Maybe you should make that part of the game more fun and accessible. Having one quest giver in a town maybe isn't helping the problem as well. I think these devs are trying to make us believe this crap so they can put in low effort loot in the game to make looting feel more rewarding.

8 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

 

I didn't read if this is the case or not, but as POI tier increases, loot level should not increase linearly but almost (not quite) geometrically in comparison.

 

As things are right now, tier 3 POI are the "grinding point" where I just harvest loot from.  Zero danger.   As tier 5's and some tier 4's can be "gamed" right now, maybe it's all for the best, unless some changes to the POI's are made.

 

Tier 3 poi size but tier 5 challenge should be a thing. Having more special spawns in a medium poi should be easy to develop and a no brainer decision to make.

[Jinx_DG]

1 hour ago, bdubyah said:

I reeeaallly hope at some point they do some kind of documentary about the development of the game. I'd love to hear all the history/hurdles the game has been through.

I was thinking this exact same thing earlier. I can see it more as a printed piece than a vid doc though. How about You? 

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Zombiepoptard said:

Maybe you should make that part of the game more fun and accessible.

 

Ding! Ding! Ding!  That is exactly what A21 has done with the magazine change. Glad we are on the same page.

 

1 hour ago, Zombiepoptard said:

 I think these devs are trying to make us believe this crap so they can put in low effort loot in the game to make looting feel more rewarding.

 

BUZZ! Wrong. But A+ in the conspiracy theory category.

 

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

The people for whom the game is balanced most completely are those who play a balanced game giving their attention to building, harvesting, mining, exploring, scavenging, surviving, trading, and killing. For someone who enjoys the entire game offering they will find that they progress and learn crafting and acquire good loot and build a base and see to their survival needs in an organic and pleasing arc. For those who only wish to play a fraction of the game and ignore certain aspects they will be warping that balanced experience either to the challenging side or the exploitive side.

I do all of that but that doesn't mean I do everything to the same extent or enjoy everything equally. I doubt that there are players for whom this is the case.

In most cases, it's somewhere between "I'm doing this activity because it's necessary" and "I'm doing this activity because I love it". Hardly anyone will really hate an activity.

 

 

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Aldranon said:

 

I didn't read if this is the case or not, but as POI tier increases, loot level should not increase linearly but almost (not quite) geometrically in comparison.

 

As things are right now, tier 3 POI are the "grinding point" where I just harvest loot from.  Zero danger.   As tier 5's and some tier 4's can be "gamed" right now, maybe it's all for the best, unless some changes to the POI's are made.

 

Loot progression, loot location, loot groups, loot everything has been balanced differently for A21 than it has been for A20. There is too much to describe it all. It can only be played to understand how it works with the changes to player progression. This is why so much of the angst over the crafting overhaul and the water survival changes exist. People can only conceive of the changes within the context that they know which is A20. But A20 is completely different than A21. For just the loot distribution and loot table and loot progression changes alone I can't even consider going back to A20. A21 is that much better.

 

That being said, some people are always going to exploit POIs and treasure rooms and the devs seem to be largely ambivalent about stopping players who wish to play the game that way. Apparently that is a sandbox element that shall remain at least for now. If you want to play the POIs straight you can but if you want to abuse them you can. A21 is not different in that regard. Its probably due to them going full tilt solo and cooperative as their main focus. If competitive multiplayer was a focus then such exploits would have to be closed in order to keep the game fair. But with no competition it isn't a high priority since players can govern themselves in solo gameplay or with their friends working together.

 

9 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I do all of that but that doesn't mean I do everything to the same extent or enjoy everything equally. I doubt that there are players for whom this is the case.

In most cases, it's somewhere between "I'm doing this activity because it's necessary" and "I'm doing this activity because I love it". Hardly anyone will really hate an activity.

 

 

 

If that is the case then I suspect A21 will be a major hit as those who like looting will love looting even more and those who see it as a necessary activity but not their favorite aspect of the game will most likely feel like that part of the game has been enhanced and made to be more rewarding. Some of those may even start to enjoy it. They will probably be the ones who target specific POIs rather than just questing so they can get that location probability bump for finding the types of magazines they're looking for.

 

"Hardly anyone" is exactly who should not be wagging the dog anyway so I think when people experience the changes they will have a positive reaction.

 

Honestly, the only faction I see truly hating the change are the speed runners who will no longer have direct control over the pace at which they learn the crafting recipes. It is going to be chance. Augmented chance, true, but still probably not as fast a climb up the ladder as they are accustomed to and no direct control over which ladder they are climbing....lol.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Zombiepoptard said:

The reason that the life skills are roped in with combat skills is...

 

1 hour ago, Zombiepoptard said:

It feels like the big dog is snoozing on 7 days to die and more focused on the other games they've been working on behind the scene

 

1 hour ago, Zombiepoptard said:

Sorry to Roland but I doubt he relays anything to the dev team.

 

Three big attempts but.....three big misses. Sorry Poptard, your guesses are completely off tonight. 

 

I do agree and I think most would agree that having more perks in each attribute would be a welcome additon. I've got nothing against that suggestion. Here's to hoping the devs will agree when I or more likely Crater Creator (who is our new Super Moderator) relays your feedback to the dev team. Or maybe @faatal who frequents the forums quite regularly will see your analysis and consider it along with the team.

 

I can't believe you forgot about poor @faatal 

[RipClaw]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

If that is the case then I suspect A21 will be a major hit as those who like looting will love looting even more and those who see it as a necessary activity but not their favorite aspect of the game will most likely feel like that part of the game has been enhanced and made to be more rewarding.

So drones with loot function, programmable swarm logic and crates with automatic sorting function confirmed for A21? Nothing is more rewarding than automating manual work and seeing it run like clockwork. 😜

[Aldranon]

3 hours ago, Zombiepoptard said:

 

Tier 3 poi size but tier 5 challenge should be a thing. Having more special spawns in a medium poi should be easy to develop and a no brainer decision to make.

 

That would be interesting for any POI that is not assign from a trader.  Trader assigned (at least early game stages and at Normal difficulty setting) missions should have pretty expected difficulty.  

 

Most here probably know, tier 3 POI's eventually become a bit more of a challenge, but that is so deep into the game where any looting whatsoever is really just kill'n time.

So, to answer your idea, I think a "when you want the kid gloves to come off" should be a difficulty setting.  Maybe after one of the first 3 BM night would be three good times. 

Also, a what do you want to call it?  A "THIS!  IS!  SPARTA!!!" setting where the devs will throw hell at you from Day 1!  Bragging rights would be legitimate. 

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, maxousara said:

Your answers is good and complete but. People always found a reason for be angry and complain about the game. You have talk about play sandbox in creative mode but players would like play sandbox BUT NOT creative mode. People would like play in survival but have the choice and dont care if its logic or not they just need their sandbox and dont care about the survival aspect. Me too i Will give an exemple. I would like play survival but its not sandbox i need to eat and drink i dont have the choice to eat and drink its not sandbox. This kind of @^#%^ logic

 

"sandbox" is not really a well defined term. If you want to have your own brand of sandbox and get rid of just the survival part of 7D2D but keep everything else you will have to mod the game.

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Zombiepoptard said:

The reason that the life skills are roped in with combat skills is because the developers don't have enough combat skills to justify them being separate. Instead of making more skills they decide to put the life skills in the mix to add more fluff.

 

When alpha 17's skill tree came out I thought they were going to add a significant amount of skills to flesh out and  justify the system change. They've added a few relating to the weapons in alpha 18 but after that I don't think any skills were added.

 

It leaves much to be desired. 

 

It feels like the big dog is snoozing on 7 days to die and more focused on the other games they've been working on behind the scene.  

 

Joel where you at?! Used to be so active on the forum but now all we have is Roland. Sorry to Roland but I doubt he relays anything to the dev team. He's to busy shooting down your concerns.  

 

I think Joel is not involved much in 7D2D anymore because he was working as designer for the game and the design part is practically finished. They have made a list of necessary features the game still needs and programmers and graphics designers are mostly working on those. If testing and feedback shows there are adjustments to be done they will surely do that, but most of the game is largely fixed by now. 

 

I.e. we can assume that perks that don't work will get changed (Sexrex is a good example here), but they will surely not add a dozen or more perks because those don't grow on trees. They would need major development that is just not in the cards for a small team that still needs to add bandits and a story. And as can be seen the team has its hand full with that alone.

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[unholyjoe]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

 

For most people. Even those who are fighting tooth and nail to try and make it so nobody ever even has a chance to try the changes will likely be the loudest voices wailing when A22 releases if the Devs dare to make changes to the magazine system they introduce in A21....lol

the vicious cycle

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

I think Joel is not involved much in 7D2D anymore because he was working as designer for the game and the design part is practically finished. They have made a list of necessary features the game still needs and programmers and graphics designers are mostly working on those. If testing and feedback shows there are adjustments to be done they will surely do that, but most of the game is largely fixed by now. 

 

I.e. we can assume that perks that don't work will get changed (Sexrex is a good example here), but they will surely not add a dozen or more perks because those don't grow on trees. They would need major development that is just not in the cards for a small team that still needs to add bandits and a story. And as can be seen the team has its hand full with that alone.

 

actually Joel is in there testing/playing the game more then ever. he is making adjustments while playing and enjoying himself testing each perk build. you dont see or hear from him because he is busy.

 

we have had to put restraints on him as he tends to forget himself at the meetings and breaks out the spiky club and scrounging thru all the garbage cans.

 

[Jost Amman]

The Reign of King Roland has ended.

The new reign of King Crater has started ... Long live the King!

(this message has been sponsored by the Royal Treasury and the Ministry of Truth)

[Doomofman]

Is Crater Creator going to become Riddle Creator at some point? 😏

[Jost Amman]

19 minutes ago, Doomofman said:

Is Crater Creator going to become Riddle Creator at some point? 😏

Not sure how good he is with riddles, but he's a champion with the blunderbuss. 

[Riamus]

15 hours ago, Zombiepoptard said:

I fill like you guys are actively swimming upstream trying to make this game something that it's not instead of working around it's strengths.  

I think you are the one doing that. This is their game and they are making it what it is.  It is their design. If they choose to make it a certain way, then you trying to make it different is you swimming upstream to try to make it something it is not.

 

I may not agree with some of their choices, but I do accept that it is their game and they can make the choices they feel are appropriate, regardless what I think.  This game is made for more people than just me or you.  Many people like the game now, many prefer it many alphas ago, and many will prefer it in the future versions.  They can't please all players and trying to do so will destroy the game for everyone.

 

You say players are here for the sandbox experience, but this game isn't really a sandbox. You can play it that way as was explained, but the actual game is only partly sandbox.  There is actual gameplay and restrictions and rules that make it not entirely a sandbox, and that is what they want.  Many players (probably most) are fine with that even if they may not agree with all choices made by TFP.  If players only wanted a sandbox experience, I think you would find significantly fewer people playing this game.  It is easy to say that everyone wants the same game experience you want, but it simply isn't true.

 

And for those complaining about the "skill tree" in this game... It really isn't a true skill tree and I personally wouldn't even call it one.  Other than a restrictive main "perk" that unlocks everything in that category, you have no limitations to what you choose.  A skill tree requires you to learn things within the tree in a specific order (hence a tree).  Here, other than putting points into ability or strength or whatever, you pick whatever you want and upgrade it.  They choose not to implement a skill tree and instead game you perks to choose from that can be upgraded.  They just decided to place those perks behind specific stat levels.  Take any game that has perks to choose from and you will usually see minimum requirements to learn the perk (often stats).  These perks are usually separate from any skill tree the game has and are treated differently.  So they are different things.  If you expect a skill tree in this game, you will be disappointed.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Doomofman said:

Is Crater Creator going to become Riddle Creator at some point? 😏

If you wish to learn the secrets of the universe you need only study @Crater Creator’s avatar— especially whenever he changes to a new one. 😀

Edited January 7, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Gronal]

Do we know if spears have been changed to a shovel hold type, as mods have done in the past? Or has a new power attack animation been made for spears?
Either way doesn't matter, but just curious really.

[daterxies]

So is the learn by reading system going to be what was in here awhile ago, find a book read it and its learned?  Seems like we just went in a complete circle if thats the case.

[bdubyah]

18 minutes ago, daterxies said:

So is the learn by reading system going to be what was in here awhile ago, find a book read it and its learned?  Seems like we just went in a complete circle if thats the case.

It's similar, but definitely not the same. It isn't one and done with each book now, you have to keep finding more of them to improve craft quality of weapons, and to unlock the higher tier weapons from what I've seen.