Are pipe machine guns too strong for their tier?

[bloodmoth13]

Just booted up a new game of 7dtd for a20 and the first thing i wanted to test was the pipe weapons. First i'll state my impressions of the other pipe weapons.

• Pipe pistol is a slow reloading revolver that takes 9mm, it fires quickly but if your going pistol you might want a few extra on your belt in case you get swamped.
• Shotgun isnt far off from the old blunderbuss, its a little cleaner, uses shotgun shells and is still a single shot slow reload shotty. typically i would run 3 on my toolbelt just like i did with the blunderbuss.
• Pipe rifle feels a lot like the old hunting rifle. I always felt the old hunting rifle was almost on the same tier as the blunderbuss with the slow reload and single shot.

 

Now the machine gun...

• The pipe machine gun feels far too good to be on this tier! It has a massive clip, high damage, fast rate of fire, fairly accurate and most importantly: it reloads quickly.

 

Whenever i pull one out when i get panicked i am left wondering why the hell i bother playing around the jank of the other weapons, and that imo is a bad thing.

 

At this stage of the game the guns you use should definitely feel janky, but the machine gun feels too smooth, its like running around with an AK47.

 

IMO the fun pimps got it perfect with the pistol, it has all the jank of the revolver with the power of a 9mm. the shotgun has the jank of the double barrel with half the fire rate. the rifle has the accuracy of a better rifle but only 1 bullet. The machine gun though has none of the drawbacks of other machine guns, like the m60 which reloads like molasses and just feels hefty all around. The pipe should have had the jank of the m60 with the firepower of the AK or less. 

 

I think that would probably require a remodel and i dont think that would be worth TFP time to do that when the model itself is fine, so i just propose giving the machine gun a lot more kickback (less accuracy), slightly smaller clip and slower reload. The machine gun with 20 bullets shouldnt be faster to reload than a single rifle/shotgun round.

 

I know that its drawback is that it is 'inefficient' but with how ample rounds are thats hardly a problem, if you miss with a rifle or shotgun you are locked out of firing for a good few seconds unless you switch to another weapon, i think reloading in combat with the pipe machine gun is entirely doable, cant be said for the pistol which is so much weaker (lower damage, less bullets AND slower reload)

 

TLDR pipe machine gun OP pls nerf.

If i'm wrong on this feel free to point it out.

 

Otherwise im enjoying the new patch.

 

[jdifran]

The pipe machine gun definitely needs balancing.  Early game, the only real balance for it is that 7.62 ammo is relatively scarce, but it does so much damage that if you don't just spray and pray you can make it last.   Maybe a "jam" mechanic where there is a small chance every shot that the durability immediately drops to zero?  Since it only costs a pipe to repair, the cost is trivial, but it would make the weapon feel really unreliable (as a high ROF gun cobbled together from junk should be).

 

EDIT:  I should add that I also like your suggestion of much longer reload animation/time, smaller magazine, and terrible accuracy.

Edited December 14, 2021 by jdifran (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

For now, I modded it by reducing its damage and durability.  I also modded my game so T0 equipment can’t use mods and can’t be over Q2.

 

it still performs better than the pistol, but the difference is significantly less now.

[Viktoriusiii]

It is the only thing that can reliably kill dogs early.
So yeah it is.
A smaller magazine coupled with a lower rate of fire (~1/2) should make it feel more like a pipe weapon.

[Rince]

Maybe having a higher reload time will put it more on line with the others.

[FranticDan]

I think the firing rate needs to be roughly 25% slower, and roughly a 33% longer reload time to be more on par with the other pipe guns.

Also the stats shouldn't be random, the pipe machinegun is the only primitive item in the entire game with random stats.

[BFT2020]

3 minutes ago, FranticDan said:

I think the firing rate needs to be roughly 25% slower, and roughly a 33% longer reload time to be more on par with the other pipe guns.

Also the stats shouldn't be random, the pipe machinegun is the only primitive item in the entire game with random stats.

I noticed that too.

 

Makes me wonder if the person that did the work on the pipe machine gun really wanted an OP weapon and made it similar to other machine guns  🤔😆

[JCrook1028]

Yes, it is. frankly the whole concept of guns able to be made day one is OP. But it helps them reach their looter/shooter end goal so............ it is what it is. I have not and will not ever make or use a pipe gun.

[madmole]

They are OP. We'll nerf/gate them a bit more.

[Viktoriusiii]

1 hour ago, madmole said:

They are OP. We'll nerf/gate them a bit more.

NO GATES my mole!!!
PLEASE Have we not learned anything?
Nerf them dead. But don't hide the starting weapon behind perks please


(except if you meant in the sense of ressources, then I'm kidna fine with it, but I think it would be good if they were on the same level as other pipe weapons in cost and in power)

[bdubyah]

I would suggest gating them with a workbench but that might be a bit much for vanilla since you can't find working ones anymore. 

[Silverjohn]

Maybe nerf it without reducing the damage?  Have it so, once you pull the trigger, it keeps firing until it empties it's magazine (simulating a gun with a faulty sear which would make sense on a crudely made weapon).  That way it would have a situational utility for horde nights or getting dropped into a pit room full of zombies but not something you'd use in every situation because of the ammo it burns through.   Of course, if you could find a semi-auto or full auto conversion mod, you could make it work properly.

[Spatch]

I love them as-is.  Not all of your players are l33t survivalists and need the spray-and-pray to stay alive.  Instead of nerfing them, why not just make it an option?  Many of you on this board forget that there are others playing this game that aren't perfect at it.  I like to  play perma-death so the pipe machine-gun is a welcome addition, and as others have stated, ammo is  so scarce it hasn't been OP on our playthrough so far.  Its been just right!

[saltychipmunk]

I would probably just nerf is ammo capacity. Bullets are bullets ,  as long as the barrel is good enough a bullet does not particularly care what fires it.  So damage should be high and impactful.

 

But  these weapons really should be low ammo capacity , slow loading clunkers . I would drop the ammo capacity of the smg down to barely usable levels 

 

I would also add some form of rare component to the crafting recipe for the multi shot pipe weapons. Like springs .  mags feed bullets into the chamber of a weapon through the tension of  springs right? 

 

you add springs to the recipe for atleast the smg (or maybe make them use a very very small amount of weapon parts)  and that would put it behind some more rng or the presence of a wrench.  

As it stands though I really do not see a reason to ever make the pipe shotgun or the pipe rifle when the pipe pistol and smg are so much easier to use thanks to their mag sizes. 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by saltychipmunk (see edit history)

[bloodmoth13]

On 12/15/2021 at 8:29 AM, madmole said:

They are OP. We'll nerf/gate them a bit more.

 

 

Good to hear. Would you consider adding a significant kickback to them to make them a lot less accurate? it would be a very resource cheap way of nerfing them without making them lose their identity and would double down on them being ammo inefficient, which would help the rifle a bit more with its own niche. I think the clip capacity, rate of fire, damage and reload time could also use tweaking but i really like the idea of having this high rate of fire jerky junk gun that takes a lot of effort to tame for the first tier of machine gun.

All weapons have their weaknesses, shotguns have their reload time and low ammo capacity for the first few tiers but high damage and aoe, rifles have slow reload time single shot, but great range and damage, pistol has low damage but has a decent clip size and cheap ammo, and the machine gun should be inaccurate and inefficient but great DPS. I think at the moment it probably just has too much in general.

 

[Fenris]

52 minutes ago, bloodmoth13 said:

 

 

Good to hear. Would you consider adding a significant kickback to them to make them a lot less accurate? it would be a very resource cheap way of nerfing them without making them lose their identity and would double down on them being ammo inefficient, which would help the rifle a bit more with its own niche. I think the clip capacity, rate of fire, damage and reload time could also use tweaking but i really like the idea of having this high rate of fire jerky junk gun that takes a lot of effort to tame for the first tier of machine gun.

All weapons have their weaknesses, shotguns have their reload time and low ammo capacity for the first few tiers but high damage and aoe, rifles have slow reload time single shot, but great range and damage, pistol has low damage but has a decent clip size and cheap ammo, and the machine gun should be inaccurate and inefficient but great DPS. I think at the moment it probably just has too much in general.

 

Well, they did just do some nerfing to pipe weapons:

• Reduced the magazine size of the pipe machine gun 
• Lowered the Max Durability of all ranged pipe weapons 

 

I haven't started A20 yet (waiting for stable), so can only guess how much this will help. Having to reload constantly and repair might do it though, just from what I've seen on YouTube anyway. I think it still might just take a pipe to repair (didn't see anything in the notes about repairs), so it would still be easy to repair, but make it more difficult to just constantly mow down enemies at lower level. Although I suppose if the crafting ingredients stay the same you could just keep 3 or more in your tool bar.

[Goemaat]

I think a more serious nerf is needed.  It reloads so fast that the magazine capacity isn't really an issue.  The lowered magazine is enough to take care of any group of mobs I found in the world, and I just reload after every couple zombies anyway.  I had a quality 6 pipe machine gun that was better than quality 4 AK-47s I'd found so I was still using it until I found a quality 5 M60.

 

I'm thinking lower damage and accuracy, because hey, it's a pipe and not a rifled steel barrel.  Right now there's little reason to use the hunting rifle (I sure don't) because the machine gun does about as much damage, is about as accurate, and isn't single-shot.  Actually improving the reload speed on the hunting rifle, pistol, and shotgun would be nice to make them actually useful.

[Kosmic Kerman]

15 minutes ago, Goemaat said:

I think a more serious nerf is needed.  It reloads so fast that the magazine capacity isn't really an issue.  The lowered magazine is enough to take care of any group of mobs I found in the world, and I just reload after every couple zombies anyway.  I had a quality 6 pipe machine gun that was better than quality 4 AK-47s I'd found so I was still using it until I found a quality 5 M60.

 

I'm thinking lower damage and accuracy, because hey, it's a pipe and not a rifled steel barrel.  Right now there's little reason to use the hunting rifle (I sure don't) because the machine gun does about as much damage, is about as accurate, and isn't single-shot.  Actually improving the reload speed on the hunting rifle, pistol, and shotgun would be nice to make them actually useful.

 

Except this was true for the AK vs the Tactical Rifle as well and a bunch of other weapons to boot. For example, a purple bone knife can be preferable to a low quality hunting knife. The reality is that the strength of the pipe machine gun is only relevant until you find your first AK. At that point it really doesn't matter. And I've always looted one, received one as a trader reward, or purchased one in the first week. So it's likely only relevant for the first week or so.  Truth be told once you get a pistol or AK, the difficulty curve drops because dogs and wolves aren't as big of a danger anymore. 

 

The complaint is that the pipe machine gun is OP because you can craft it day one and outshines the other pipe guns. Not that a purple pipe MG is better than a lower quality AK.  However, I never found much 7.62 ammo my first week so I'm not sure how relevant that really is. I only had enough 7.62 for emergencies until well into week 2. So it didn't even matter than I received an AK from the trader since I needed to reserve it for dog hordes, etc.  

 

If you aren't using the other guns, that's just player preference. Personally, I don't like any of the pipe weapons but enjoy the T1 and above pistols, shotguns, and machine guns. The long rifles all do substantially more damage than the machine guns but I don't like the play style and so don't perk into the perception tree for faster reload and increased damage. That doesn't mean other people don't.  

[bloodmoth13]

2 hours ago, Fenris said:

Well, they did just do some nerfing to pipe weapons:

• Reduced the magazine size of the pipe machine gun 
• Lowered the Max Durability of all ranged pipe weapons 

 

I haven't started A20 yet (waiting for stable), so can only guess how much this will help. Having to reload constantly and repair might do it though, just from what I've seen on YouTube anyway. I think it still might just take a pipe to repair (didn't see anything in the notes about repairs), so it would still be easy to repair, but make it more difficult to just constantly mow down enemies at lower level. Although I suppose if the crafting ingredients stay the same you could just keep 3 or more in your tool bar.

From my game more repairs is irellevant, im swimming in pipes and im not even harvesting them. Reduced magazine is a start but the weapon already has the fastest reload for T0 weapons, that needs to be brought in line too. I still think that its too accurate (provided that hasnt changed) for a shoddily made pipe weapon.

Not a bad start though, adding more upkeep isnt a bad thing.

[BFT2020]

I will have to look at what the recent patch has done in more details, but I made the following changes myself already for the pipe machine gun

 

• Mods not allowed (all T0 equipment actually)
• No repairs (all T0)
• Can't craft above Q2, can't find in loot, or available from the traders (all T0)
• double the damage reduction (originally around -16, I upped it to -30)
• 25% reduction in rounds per minute

It still does better than the pistol but just because it uses 7.62mm ammo and has a bigger clip size.  Also faster reload than the other weapons.  However, I noticed a significant difference with it.  You can't mow down a wandering horde by just easing up the trigger and using very little ammo.   Ammo consumption increased a lot.

 

[Slaasher]

On 12/14/2021 at 8:28 AM, Viktoriusiii said:

It is the only thing that can reliably kill dogs early.
So yeah it is.
A smaller magazine coupled with a lower rate of fire (~1/2) should make it feel more like a pipe weapon.

 

I agree with this. Magazine size lowered to 10 - 12 maybe?

There ARE a lot more dogs starting on day 2 for me. I have started 6 games and this has been the case in all of them.

Twice i had a bear attacking my base on night 2. 

SO I think the pipe machine gun is necessary but needs a bit of a nerf

 

 

[bloodmoth13]

10 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

I will have to look at what the recent patch has done in more details, but I made the following changes myself already for the pipe machine gun

 

• Mods not allowed (all T0 equipment actually)
• No repairs (all T0)
• Can't craft above Q2, can't find in loot, or available from the traders (all T0)
• double the damage reduction (originally around -16, I upped it to -30)
• 25% reduction in rounds per minute

It still does better than the pistol but just because it uses 7.62mm ammo and has a bigger clip size.  Also faster reload than the other weapons.  However, I noticed a significant difference with it.  You can't mow down a wandering horde by just easing up the trigger and using very little ammo.   Ammo consumption increased a lot.

 

Shows how far ahead it is. Its honestly better than the T1 pistol in every aspect currently. in my opinion using more expensive ammo is irrelevant as ammo is so plentiful that i have to go out of my way to waste ammo in order for it to matter (no melee and no headshots -_-)

It helps for early horde nights as the other weapons are too unreliable to deal with a steady stream of foes, but it really is just that good.

 

I think the big issues compared to the pipe pistol is that the machine gun MUST deal more damage using the better bullets, and it MUST have a larger clip in order to qualify as a machine gun and lastly it MUST have a higher rate of fire.

so either they change the ammo to 9mm and nerf its damage significantly or nerf it in multiple other ways.

 

A significantly longer reload time is a no brainer. It should be at 5 seconds for balance purposes, it needs to reload the least so that is definitely a spot that would help hurt it.

There is only so much you can nerf the clip size, rate of fire and damage before it fills its role as 'the machine gun', they should probably push that to its limit though, its a pipe weapon, its supposed to suck! it is meant to be a consolation prize for not looting anything decent.

I think the best way to nerf the crap out of it without compromising all the things that it should be doing well would be screwing its accuracy to the ground with nasty kick backs. Only problem there though is that it would probably just turn into a 'rifle' with a large clip and be used as a single shot with burst capabilities and nerfs it in the situation it should be used as opposed to the situation it shouldnt (marksmanship)

 

as it is though it needs significant nerfs considering the sheer jankyness of the pistol, shotgun and rifle.

[Adam the Waster]

HELLO! late to the party, THANKS skippy for showing this

i think the pipe MG should be nerfed and i think some fair ways are
 

• Making crafting harder by needing mechanical parts, cuz... its a MG.. i don't think a few pipes, glue and wood would make a MG...
• have a "jam" system where for every 3, 4 or even 5 shots you fire have to Crank the handle on the side to rechamber a round. that way it would give a "oh crap" moment
• When reloading, you crank the gun 3 times too finally chamber a round in your sin of god too John Browning!
• Last but not least, make the Accuracy very poor
• Spoiler

  Suppressors (i just think they need a overheating function period but oh well)

   

[Lenny Lettuce Lips]

I have an idea.... Could be crazy

 

What if they all get an improvement in damage (especially the pistol) but you cannot repair them. Once they break, you can only scrap them for bits. I also think making them is too achievable, and I wouldn't mind it being more resource intense. Maybe even requiring forged iron, as it's not hard to find if you get your hands on a wrench early. Even if it's just 1-5. You're making a gun for survival, you may consider it a priority.

 

I do not mind the feeling of imbalance because if you always feel beaten down, coupled with the AI pathing, it becomes unfun in a fat hurry. Giving a fresh spawn a fighting chance ain't all bad. We've seen how us long timers balance it ourselves for challenge. I think what's tough is that because the game is so customizable and so open ended it's created a void where if choice was lacking and we just had a game we booted up and played without the choice to play with options it would all be mods. I can assure you the mods making the game more difficult would be less popular but the overhaul ones like Darkness Falls and Undead Legacy would prevail and their difficulty would be accepted. 

 

I think a massive part of why people gripe is because you can tune literally everything so you find little thorns where it doesn't fit well for you and it becomes a focus. I like sniping. If I could I'd be a zombie sniper all day. It doesn't work well for me in this game twofold: they don't spawn far enough for it to matter, and if they did, it's not like I can shoot through walls where they are and I wanna be. So I opt for alternative means. This isn't a game for sniping, so why complain? 

 

I can't say I'll complain if it's nerfed, I'll adjust (I wasn't using it much to begin with, ironically), but I don't know I get why people are married to it. Don't we move on to the AK pretty quick anyway? I feel like it's silly to poke at early stage weapons when the goal is to graduate to something better. Even if you have a good early stage weapon, wouldn't that mean you have to choose whether or not you spec into it anyway? I feel like people want a harder game without changing their difficulty to something harder when they have the option. 

On 12/16/2021 at 1:25 PM, Goemaat said:

I think a more serious nerf is needed.  It reloads so fast that the magazine capacity isn't really an issue.  The lowered magazine is enough to take care of any group of mobs I found in the world, and I just reload after every couple zombies anyway.  I had a quality 6 pipe machine gun that was better than quality 4 AK-47s I'd found so I was still using it until I found a quality 5 M60.

 

I'm thinking lower damage and accuracy, because hey, it's a pipe and not a rifled steel barrel.  Right now there's little reason to use the hunting rifle (I sure don't) because the machine gun does about as much damage, is about as accurate, and isn't single-shot.  Actually improving the reload speed on the hunting rifle, pistol, and shotgun would be nice to make them actually useful.

Did you use it because it had better stats or because you were better with it? 

I've always defaulted to the basic pistol, personally. I've liked stealth builds from the jump and when I spec into handguns I have several options. When I'm late game, the SMG works a treat with a silencer for me. For hoards, magnums and SMG. I'm good with that setup. I might have an auto shotgun by that point, but not only are my points/books in what I carry, my ammo I make is not tailored to the higher damage weapon on paper because my skills compensate. Maybe I'm reading too deep. Cheers mate. 

[Rotor]

On 12/14/2021 at 3:28 PM, Viktoriusiii said:

It is the only thing that can reliably kill dogs early.

 

I beg to differ, but I am a bow enthusiast. 

 

Ya'll just need to lay off the greaser.  I mean she ain't quite the old greaser but she tries hard :).