Why are the devs screwing over agi/stealth in their POI design?

[Tehnomaag]

I have been wondering over this question for a little while. If stealth is an intended gameplay mechanic with its own build/perks why are the developers of this game deliberately screwing over the stealth builds in their POI design? I mean in particular those auto-agro rooms where everything is waking up and beelining straight to you by a script and not by any action you are doing yourself?

 

This is, ofcourse, not the only indication of particular dislike towards stealth gameplay by whoever is designing the POI's there are also these breaking floors you have to run over or fall into a trap and there is a pile of rubbish practically in every doorway just because. 

 

The way I see it it is basically equivalent to giving zombies in a POI a 25% armor penetration when the game detects a strength based player enteering a POI, because reasons. I mean 90% damage reduction and making heads and limbs explode with shotgun/club and no pretense of any kind of stealth, running everywhere cant be the only RIGHT WAY of playing this game, I suppose?

 

The reason can not be, as far as I can see, that otherwise it would be too trivial to beeline straight for the loot, as devs are doing nothing to prevent it otherwise by putting in almost all POI's the loot on the roof and allowing nerd-poling and/or landing on the roof with a gyro, so you do not need to sneak if all you want to do is to pick up the main loot from a POI skipping all other stuff.  Nerd-poling, for example, is trivial to prevent and has been done even in fair few mods like, for example, Ravenhearst. All you need is a small delay for block deployment. 

Stealth gameplay is already penalized enough, as these are wasted perks during the blood moon (stealth does not work) and when clearing POI's the stealth is much slower at it than just running through the POI with sledge/club/shotgun (plus miner 69 to break any door in half the time) and making everything ded. If stealth is deemed such a problem by the developers why not just remove it? Instead of targeting that skilltree specifically in a roundabout way through their POI design?

[Roland]

42 minutes ago, Tehnomaag said:

If stealth is deemed such a problem by the developers why not just remove it? Instead of targeting that skilltree specifically in a roundabout way through their POI design?

 

Stealth is not deemed as a problem it is simply deemed as a choice in certain circumstances. You can pretty much stealth unperked and gain some bonuses and be pretty successful. Buying the perk gives better bonuses but it isn't like you cannot stealth at all until you buy perks.  So I think you're reading too much into the impact stealth is supposed to have in the game. Even Madmole has recently stated that there is no Stealth Build. Such a thing was never designed. Players talk about it like there is but really the build is actually the Agility Build and stealth is but one of many skills the agility player can employ. The player isn't even intended to stick to just one attribute let alone one set of skills within that attribute. I mean you can try that as a challenge or for roleplay purposes but the game isn't necessarily designed to support that-- so you will run into instances where there will be conflicts like a room that auto aggros no matter how stealthy you are being.

 

The game was never meant to be a "Solve all problems and overcome all situations by stealth" kind of game. Hence there are some areas in POI's where stealth is impossible. And that is because the devs have designed the game so that players are confronted with choices. As for removing the stealth perks and stealth elements? Why? You can choose not to take any of those perks and spend the points elsewhere if you feel they are worthless to take because intermittent rooms are immune to it. Others enjoy it for what it is and don't feel they need them to removed just because someone out there wants to play Thief instead of 7 Days to Die...

[Tehnomaag]

19 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Stealth is not deemed as a problem it is simply deemed as a choice in certain circumstances. You can pretty much stealth unperked and gain some bonuses and be pretty successful. Buying the perk gives better bonuses but it isn't like you cannot stealth at all until you buy perks.  So I think you're reading too much into the impact stealth is supposed to have in the game. Even Madmole has recently stated that there is no Stealth Build. Such a thing was never designed. Players talk about it like there is but really the build is actually the Agility Build and stealth is but one of many skills the agility player can employ. The player isn't even intended to stick to just one attribute let alone one set of skills within that attribute. I mean you can try that as a challenge or for roleplay purposes but the game isn't necessarily designed to support that-- so you will run into instances where there will be conflicts like a room that auto aggros no matter how stealthy you are being.

 

The game was never meant to be a "Solve all problems and overcome all situations by stealth" kind of game. Hence there are some areas in POI's where stealth is impossible. And that is because the devs have designed the game so that players are confronted with choices. As for removing the stealth perks and stealth elements? Why? You can choose not to take any of those perks and spend the points elsewhere if you feel they are worthless to take because intermittent rooms are immune to it. Others enjoy it for what it is and don't feel they need them to removed just because someone out there wants to play Thief instead of 7 Days to Die...

Yet, for example, a full strength build is viable in these rooms as in full steel and properly perked sledge/club/shotgun one simply does not care about waking everything up within 50m radius. 

 

The point is then that this "choice in certain circumstances" is not working in these circumastances? Because where else would agi/stealth would be supposed to be a viable strategy if it is not in a POI? It is not really working out in the wilderness as far as I can see, because zeds have a clear line of sight and are not sleeping. It is not working during a blood moon. So if not in a POI where? Because there are rooms which are, clearly, specifically targeted at making the agi/stealth strategy non-viable in a given POI. 

The main issue here is, that it is not something the player does. It is scripted and screws over, in particular, builds that rely on stealth making already significant sacrifices to do that (POI clearing speed, perks doing nothing during blood moon, etc). Why is that a problem? Because that is a playstyle some players prefer/like. It funnels all the builds into a single "this is the right way to play" path. 

[Kalen]

10 minutes ago, Tehnomaag said:

Yet, for example, a full strength build is viable in these rooms as in full steel and properly perked sledge/club/shotgun one simply does not care about waking everything up within 50m radius. 

 

The point is then that this "choice in certain circumstances" is not working in these circumastances? Because where else would agi/stealth would be supposed to be a viable strategy if it is not in a POI? It is not really working out in the wilderness as far as I can see, because zeds have a clear line of sight and are not sleeping. It is not working during a blood moon. So if not in a POI where? Because there are rooms which are, clearly, specifically targeted at making the agi/stealth strategy non-viable in a given POI. 

The main issue here is, that it is not something the player does. It is scripted and screws over, in particular, builds that rely on stealth making already significant sacrifices to do that (POI clearing speed, perks doing nothing during blood moon, etc). Why is that a problem? Because that is a playstyle some players prefer/like. It funnels all the builds into a single "this is the right way to play" path. 

Stealth is just one part of an agility build.... when you find a room where stealth doesn't work just parkour your way up to a higher vantage point and use your pistols.  Parkour, IMO, is the most OP ability in the game.... I love it!

[Roland]

5 hours ago, Tehnomaag said:

Because where else would agi/stealth would be supposed to be a viable strategy if it is not in a POI?

It works in all the rest of the areas of that POI. Stop pretending that one room of a POI invalidates stealth for that entire POI. It’s one room where you have to change up your strategy. 
 

You keep comparing Stealth which is one aspect of the Agility build to all of the Strength build. How about more fairly comparing all of Agility to all of Strength?  If you just want to look at stealth from the agility attribute then let’s just look at Master Chef from the Strength attribute. How does stealth fare for clearing POIs compared to how cooking helps to do the same?  All of a sudden, stealth looks better...

Joking aside, I get what bothers you. We can already sneak around unperked so buying perks should gain us advantages like being able to avoid whatever triggers a room to aggro for unperked players. That would create a more defining line between perked and unperked stealthing. But after buying those extra skills we are still subject to the auto aggro like everyone else.  The answer is simply that the level designers want everyone to experience these particular rooms as a direct confrontation. 90% of the rest of the POI you still have your advantages plus any other Agility skills like parkour that you can bring to bear. 

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Tehnomaag said:

Yet, for example, a full strength build is viable in these rooms as in full steel and properly perked sledge/club/shotgun one simply does not care about waking everything up within 50m radius. 

 

The point is then that this "choice in certain circumstances" is not working in these circumastances? Because where else would agi/stealth would be supposed to be a viable strategy if it is not in a POI? It is not really working out in the wilderness as far as I can see, because zeds have a clear line of sight and are not sleeping. It is not working during a blood moon. So if not in a POI where? Because there are rooms which are, clearly, specifically targeted at making the agi/stealth strategy non-viable in a given POI. 

The main issue here is, that it is not something the player does. It is scripted and screws over, in particular, builds that rely on stealth making already significant sacrifices to do that (POI clearing speed, perks doing nothing during blood moon, etc). Why is that a problem? Because that is a playstyle some players prefer/like. It funnels all the builds into a single "this is the right way to play" path. 

I don't think it is clear whether the level designers were thinking about stealth. Even when you shoot with a shotgun without stealth, zombies in bigger rooms will not all activate. If the level designer wants to provide a local "suspense maximum", for example because you just fell into a trap and ALL zombies should be rushing you for a maximum adrenaline rush, then there is this one trigger option that fits.

 

The other thing you are mentioning is the trash on the floor of every doorway. The interesting question is if the noise of that is influenced by the shadows-perk. I would assume yes. And then it might be somewhat balanced. A perked stealther won't be waking up zeds with stepping on the trash, a starting stealth player would need to remove them or walk around them (a mini-game of sorts). And non-stealthers will not get the time to look around the room first and don't get that initial headshot on one sleeper (in theory).

 

That balance depends on the general game balance where zombies should be dangerous if more than one attacks you at the same time. This is only true after TFP have finished balancing every loot source so that you can't just walz through POIs with basic sleepers with an auto shotgun in your hand. 

 

[Laz Man]

If its any consolation to you, one of the devs has acknowledged they may look at the possibility of improving sleeper mechanics in regards to stealth.  What that will look like at the end of the day is anyone's guess.

 

Hopefully they land on something that is both fun and balanced for the game.

[Sjustus548]

I find sneaking to work very effectively.  My wife is doing sneaking and I'm following behind with a Strength/Perception build.  She can clear out entire rooms easier than I can, yes I could do it faster by going in with my shotgun blasting away but that is far more dangerous as well.  She can clear out an entire POI without being detected once.  On the off chance she doesn't get that one hit kill or we come across one of the auto aggro rooms she can just pull out her Desert Vulture and destroy zombies with the best of them.  Stealthing shouldn't be the end all build for the game.  If you could just stealth thru the blood moons then everyone would be going with that build.  Stealth is a viable build in my opinion.  You just need to work around some of the downsides of it, just like any other build.

[Danidas]

Strength excels at taking damage and dissing it out in close quarters combat.

 

Agility excels at avoiding damage and dissing out more tactical damage.

 

Where Strength rushes in loud and proud. Agility instead sneaks in to silently kill targets of opportunity and when that fails, falls back on inflecting bleed while tactically retreating using Parkour, quick attacks, and fast reloads while running.

 

The basic difference is Strength tends to require more time and resources to get going as well as to sustain it self. Where Agility focuses on being as cheap and quick to use as possible. Sure once Strength gets going it can be faster and easier to use but Agility is quicker to get going and easier to use for longer. 

 

 

[ElCabong]

I'm annoyed by those rooms that auto agro but there aren't that many of them. Are you just a bow build? This can be a problem with a slow weapon like a bow or crossbow.

I spec bow and 9mm and generally don't have any trouble with those rooms after I switch to the gun.

[Perramas]

Stealth is trash and not worth pointing any points to achieve.  Only spend points on skills/abilities that are going to help you on horde night.  Spending points in anything else is a waste and is going to hurt you on horde nights.

[Boidster]

4 hours ago, Sjustus548 said:

She can clear out an entire POI without being detected once.

Yep we both put a little bit into stealth in our co-op game. We can one-shot most sleepers and as for traps, well, if you're not punching the floor as you go you deserve to fall through. Every trash pile gets the axe until we find that one book volume.

 

11 hours ago, Tehnomaag said:

It is not really working out in the wilderness as far as I can see, because zeds have a clear line of sight and are not sleeping.

You need to expand your vision. Every normal zombie is a one-shot kill outdoors with just the freebie From The Shadows perk with iron arrows and a wooden crossbow. Zombies only see so far and they will only chase you so far. In broad daylight you can sneak attack for 4x damage, then run to the right or left for 30-40 blocks into a tree shadow and wait for the stupid zombie to wander over to where it last saw you and then lose interest. >blam< another 4x damage. Take a biker down in 2 shots without attracting the 8 other zombies in the area.

 

Oh, also, increase your zombie spawns so there are 8 other zombies in the area. Stealth becomes very useful in those situations, unless of course you prefer the guns-blazing approach to the game which is also perfectly fine.

[Ramethzer0]

4 hours ago, Perramas said:

Stealth is trash and not worth pointing any points to achieve.  Only spend points on skills/abilities that are going to help you on horde night.  Spending points in anything else is a waste and is going to hurt you on horde nights.

Stealth doesn't help you on Horde nights, but horde nights are literally only a minor percentage of the game   I frequently play AGI builds with Stealth built in and I can tell you that my SMG bullet hose disagrees whole heartedly with your statement.

 

I can also live through horde nights in AGI, without an actual base, on open ground and without the use of a vehicle.  So.. yeah.  Come again?

[alanea]

14 hours ago, Tehnomaag said:

....

stealth is in really bad place thats true yes ... but is it because its weak ?  nope ... stealth is far superior to  combat and you can even kill  whole "boss rooms withou waking anyone"

hidden zombies are often triggered by entering some area thats true but 90% time you can get view on outside that area by destroying cover

 

the only new trigger i noticed is in graveyard boss room where everyone charge you .. in a18  you could stealth kill them all

 

stealth is killed by stuff you say  .. its slower  and useless for bloodmoon  .. but you cant really solve this easily  especially when TFP consider avoiding hordes as something that shouldnt be possible

[Danidas]

1 hour ago, Boidster said:

Yep we both put a little bit into stealth in our co-op game. We can one-shot most sleepers and as for traps, well, if you're not punching the floor as you go you deserve to fall through. Every trash pile gets the axe until we find that one book volume.

 

You need to expand your vision. Every normal zombie is a one-shot kill outdoors with just the freebie From The Shadows perk with iron arrows and a wooden crossbow. Zombies only see so far and they will only chase you so far. In broad daylight you can sneak attack for 4x damage, then run to the right or left for 30-40 blocks into a tree shadow and wait for the stupid zombie to wander over to where it last saw you and then lose interest. >blam< another 4x damage. Take a biker down in 2 shots without attracting the 8 other zombies in the area.

 

Oh, also, increase your zombie spawns so there are 8 other zombies in the area. Stealth becomes very useful in those situations, unless of course you prefer the guns-blazing approach to the game which is also perfectly fine.

 

Another trick is throwing rocks while out of a aggro zombies line of slight while sneaking and the zombie will go to where the rock landed instead of where it last saw you.

[Roland]

Preferrably throw the rock near a bear or a cougar...

[Boidster]

3 hours ago, Danidas said:

Another trick is throwing rocks while out of a aggro zombies line of slight while sneaking and the zombie will go to where the rock landed instead of where it last saw you.

I did not know that. I've used rocks to send them off yonder, but I did not know you could redirect them once they aggro'd. So, like, shoot them and then duck behind a tree while throwing a rock to distract them?

 

[Maharin]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

Preferrably throw the rock near a bear or a cougar...

It would be best if you could throw the bear or cougar... just sayin'.

[th3s0n1c]

21 hours ago, Roland said:

So I think you're reading too much into the impact stealth is supposed to have in the game. Even Madmole has recently stated that there is no Stealth Build. Such a thing was never designed.

It may not have been designed as a build, but it was designed as an option since the "detection" system. Otherwise, I dont see why they would've created the Hidden Strike and From the Shadows perks (which, btw, clearly state on their descriptions that they are "stealthy"). And even if not being designed to be a "thing", players made it a thing because the option was there. It happened organically. Madmole can say "there's no such thing" as much as he wants, yet, here it is. 

 

21 hours ago, Roland said:

The game was never meant to be a "Solve all problems and overcome all situations by stealth" kind of game. Hence there are some areas in POI's where stealth is impossible. And that is because the devs have designed the game so that players are confronted with choices.

I dont think anyone claimed the game was supposed to be a stealth game like you stated with "just because someone out there wants to play Thief instead of 7 Days to Die.."), but like you said yourself: if TFP wants to give us choices on how to play the game, making a stealth path should be a thing validated by the devs - instead of dismissing it- because they were the ones that allowed it to be possible in the first place. Not only by those 2 skills, but also with books like "Use no stamina while sneak sprinting", "Sneak past motion detection devices", "Craft military stealth boots", "Sneak landing make less sound and sneak jump height is not reduced".. hells, basically the entire nightstalker set of books is aimed at a stealth build and by adding the noise increase system in the equipment as well.

 

 

Now, will all that being said, I'll say that I'm perfectly fine with the trash in front of doors, trap floors, the zombies in the closet that you have to shoot the door, then shoot the zombie (so much immersion breaking.. urgh...) and even some aggro rooms (the ones with a spawn factor makes no sense whatsoever). The price of being stealth is taking your time to find the way to kill your target effectively without drawing attention. And that includes avoiding trashpiles, clearing doorways, finding the perfect angle to shoot, etc. As long as they dont nerf the perks because, like the OP stated: they are already rendered useless for a fair amount of situations (like Blood moons). But the build path should DEFINITELY be acknowledged as a viable build/possible option and NOT just some "challenge or roleplay purpose". Specially considering that, once again, the devs were the ones that brought all its elements into the game.

[Tehnomaag]

14 hours ago, ElCabong said:

I'm annoyed by those rooms that auto agro but there aren't that many of them. Are you just a bow build? This can be a problem with a slow weapon like a bow or crossbow.

I spec bow and 9mm and generally don't have any trouble with those rooms after I switch to the gun.

Crossbow. Also delete all EQ on death and loot quantity reduced to 30% so dying is kind of a bigger deal than in vanilla. But the issue, in my mind, is not the particular build or server settings but a more fundamental problem of the POI design, where certain mechanics are aimed specifically at neutering a certain build that is only good for these scenarios (clearing a POI, as stealth does not work during BM and is highly reduced utility in the wilderness).

[Kalen]

55 minutes ago, th3s0n1c said:

It may not have been designed as a build, but it was designed as an option since the "detection" system. Otherwise, I dont see why they would've created the Hidden Strike and From the Shadows perks (which, btw, clearly state on their descriptions that they are "stealthy"). And even if not being designed to be a "thing", players made it a thing because the option was there. It happened organically. Madmole can say "there's no such thing" as much as he wants, yet, here it is. 

I think you're reading too much into it..... when they say "there is no stealth build" they don't mean there is no such thing as stealth or things that improve stealth.  They mean that a character that relies purely on stealth was never intended to be a viable option.   

[Lenny Lettuce Lips]

14 hours ago, Perramas said:

Stealth is trash and not worth pointing any points to achieve.  Only spend points on skills/abilities that are going to help you on horde night.  Spending points in anything else is a waste and is going to hurt you on horde nights.

I solo play a lot and I do very well sneaking around and using arrows to take out sleepers in big POIs. I tend to hoard my money and drop on higher level guns so I can sneak through the rest of the week and I tend to be just fine. A lot of the lower quests give you 20 mollys or pipe bombs as rewards, and that holds me over well on hoard nights, so I don't stress. Focusing your build on just one day of the week is missing the rest of the game. 

[ElCabong]

6 hours ago, Tehnomaag said:

Crossbow. Also delete all EQ on death and loot quantity reduced to 30% so dying is kind of a bigger deal than in vanilla. But the issue, in my mind, is not the particular build or server settings but a more fundamental problem of the POI design, where certain mechanics are aimed specifically at neutering a certain build that is only good for these scenarios (clearing a POI, as stealth does not work during BM and is highly reduced utility in the wilderness).

I don't think they're trying to Nerf a particular build, they are making it difficult for any build that's not prepared to handle it. A fortitude build would have to keep one eye on the blue bar and be in a tough situation when it ran out. You could try equipping a bow, it is faster than a crossbow and you can shoot as soon as the arrow is ready. It's a pita no matter what

 

 

[Roland]

9 hours ago, th3s0n1c said:

It may not have been designed as a build, but it was designed as an option since the "detection" system. Otherwise, I dont see why they would've created the Hidden Strike and From the Shadows perks (which, btw, clearly state on their descriptions that they are "stealthy"). And even if not being designed to be a "thing", players made it a thing because the option was there. It happened organically. Madmole can say "there's no such thing" as much as he wants, yet, here it is. 

 

I dont think anyone claimed the game was supposed to be a stealth game like you stated with "just because someone out there wants to play Thief instead of 7 Days to Die.."), but like you said yourself: if TFP wants to give us choices on how to play the game, making a stealth path should be a thing validated by the devs - instead of dismissing it- because they were the ones that allowed it to be possible in the first place. Not only by those 2 skills, but also with books like "Use no stamina while sneak sprinting", "Sneak past motion detection devices", "Craft military stealth boots", "Sneak landing make less sound and sneak jump height is not reduced".. hells, basically the entire nightstalker set of books is aimed at a stealth build and by adding the noise increase system in the equipment as well.

 

 

Now, will all that being said, I'll say that I'm perfectly fine with the trash in front of doors, trap floors, the zombies in the closet that you have to shoot the door, then shoot the zombie (so much immersion breaking.. urgh...) and even some aggro rooms (the ones with a spawn factor makes no sense whatsoever). The price of being stealth is taking your time to find the way to kill your target effectively without drawing attention. And that includes avoiding trashpiles, clearing doorways, finding the perfect angle to shoot, etc. As long as they dont nerf the perks because, like the OP stated: they are already rendered useless for a fair amount of situations (like Blood moons). But the build path should DEFINITELY be acknowledged as a viable build/possible option and NOT just some "challenge or roleplay purpose". Specially considering that, once again, the devs were the ones that brought all its elements into the game.

I think you have misunderstood me. Just because I said that a stealth build is not what the game is designed around doesn’t mean that I think that stealth as a feature is insignificant or marginal in the game. 
 

I use stealth all the time—even unperked into it. Stealth is not something you can only do once you’ve perked into it. Everyone can use stealth and everyone probably does use stealth mixes with other tactics all the time. 
 

The perks just give bonuses and enhancements to what everyone can already do. That’s why they exist. If you don’t care for the enhancements then don’t spend the points and you can still be stealthy to a basic degree. 
 

Just because there are some situations designed into the game where stealth isn’t helpful, it doesn’t invalidate stealth nor make perks in that category a waste. The game has been designed in such a way that everyone can do everything at a basic level and nobody is locked out of any ability just because they chose a skill tree to perk into. Choosing shotguns does not mean that knives will be grayed out and a message will pop up telling me my class doesn’t let me use that weapon. The game gives us the freedom to do everything in a mediocre way from Day 1 and then we can choose what actions we want enhancements in. 

[Danidas]

In other words it is entirely possible to kill every zombie in a POI while stealth with a pure Strength build using a shotgun doing nothing but sneak attacks all with out putting a single point into Agility or its sub perks. Grant it doing so would be a lot easier with a few points into Hidden Strike and From the Shadows but both are not required for it. Which is the point Roland is trying to make as the game is designed so that everyone can do everything just not as well as those that perked into it.