Alpha 19: are iron tools worth using?

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

The iron tools need some buffing. as it stands they are not worth the stamina usage. A modified stone shovel will use less stamina and take out ground with the same number of hits as an iron shovel. Maybe the iron pickax is fine? but i find myself rushing for steel tools and skipping the iron stage. The need for repair kits just does not make them economical and stamina usage despite proper perks is too high for them to be viable compared to the stone tools. 

[canadianbluebeer]

They do more damage to the block, thus faster mining.

 

I stay on iron until I can get/make Q5 steel tools.

 

Making iron is easy.

 

Iron axe over stone any day, same for the pick.

 

The shovel though... I'll have to check that next play through.

(see the thread on stamina usage tho)

 

[theFlu]

I'm starting to see the whole of equipment, not just tools, as two tiers essentially. There may be a short moment where a high quality Tier 2 will outperform a Tier 1, but the difference is so small that the middle tier might not even exist. And you'll get the low quality Tier 3 upgrades shortly after due to the static drop system.

 

I do use an iron pick in a str build, but I haven't bothered to "upgrade" to a baseball bat over my wooden club... The difference would be minimal to non-existing and for a horde night I can stand there with the right-click pressed for as long as there are targets. The refunds from my full SexRex cover all my sta needs. I suppose next up is agi for more swing speed...

 

Knives, a Q5 Bone is better than a lowly Hunting Knife, even before mods, and the issue seems repeating in bows, spears, salvage tools, light armor, in other words, everything I've "seriously" used this far.

 

Edit: For iron tools, the issue is even worse of course, you'll have to replace the stone axe with three separate tools, (axe, pick and a hammer plus repair kits). Depending on play style, that's a lot of wasted inventory for marginal improvements.

[user2010]

The game is out of balance!
Entry-level stone tools and melee weapons are superior to iron! Steel tools, and a new club, an ax, are practically not in demand!
By the time the purple steel pickaxe appears, I already have a blue drill!
And why, do I need them ??

 

 

[canadianbluebeer]

I've actually yet to get an auger.      Chainsaw yes, but not an auger. (rng hates me there)

 

The pick is faster than using the axe for rock/iron etc.   Mind you, without the ergonomic grip, and points in sexrex, yes, you'll run out of stamina.

(I tend to make a q3 or 4 one, and stay with it until steel)

 

The fire axe is faster than stone on wood, and of course, if you get jumped, you can whack the zeds with it then switch to something more lethal.

 

The shovel though, as I said, I'd have to check.  I do agree the stam usage on the stone one is waay less than the iron one.

I DO run out of stam with the iron shovel, but not so much with the pick or axe. hmm.

 

I don't bother making steel tools below Q5, as making steel takes more resources, and of course, finding enough steel parts.

Plus, Q5 means 3 mod slots, vs 2.    (so I can go ergo grip, bunkerbuster, iron breaker on the pick.  Ergo grip is a must on all of them)

 

I may just spawn in an auger tomorrow, just to try the silly thing.  Mind you, haven't found the desert yet, so saving the gas for the vehicles right now.

 

It's all on preferences though. What works for me, may not for you.  (eg: if you can't find/buy/make an ergonomic grip, then yep, iron tools are gonna

hurt, and stone may work better for you)

 

[eXSe]

In a jump scare I swing with whatever is in my hand

 

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

14 hours ago, canadianbluebeer said:

They do more damage to the block, thus faster mining.

 

I stay on iron until I can get/make Q5 steel tools.

 

Making iron is easy.

 

Iron axe over stone any day, same for the pick.

 

The shovel though... I'll have to check that next play through.

(see the thread on stamina usage tho)

 

The shovel is my main gripe. the stamina usage is too high, so it's either stone shovel, steel shovel, or auger. The only purpose iron shovels serve is to be scrapped or melted down into iron in a forge. 

[TheRani]

I maxed Salvage operations and I made a blue ratchet to replace my blue wrench, and it turned out that the wrench was better in literally every way except the ratchet's block damage was like 3 higher or something like that.  It wasn't worth the extra stamina to scrap something in the exact same amount of hits.  I sold the ratchet and went back to my wrench until I had the parts for an impact driver.

[FileMachete]

Just made a lvl2 Iron Pickaxe. While it does 3+ times the damage that my lvl5 Stone Axe does against concrete blocks, it gasses you out much quicker. Which I _think_ means it winds up costing more food..

 

Seemed like it was best to use the Iron for 7 or 8 swings, not fully gassing out, but a bit below half stamina, then let stamina refill, then another 7-8 swings, repeat. Saying this as it looks like if you get stamina way low then it takes longer to refill? Likewise just a couple swings with a full tank of S seems to refill faster.

 

Anyway. While I didn't time how long it took for Iron vs Stone, they seemed comparable, due to stamina refills for Iron pick.

To break a 2500hp concrete block it took 30 hits for iron and 93 for stone axe.

That's with Miner69er & Sexrex at 2.

 

The Stone Shovel... lvl6 w just a gravedigger and weighted head mods. Just got the weighted head so not sure if it will now 3-shot topsoil, but it's 2-shotting the lower hp clay underneath. Stamina drain means 8 swings then recharge, but at least you're seeming to make progress. Unlike the stone axe vs. any of the higher hp blocks it's supposed to break. That damn thing is just torture.

[FranticDan]

1 hour ago, TheRani said:

I maxed Salvage operations and I made a blue ratchet to replace my blue wrench, and it turned out that the wrench was better in literally every way except the ratchet's block damage was like 3 higher or something like that.  It wasn't worth the extra stamina to scrap something in the exact same amount of hits.  I sold the ratchet and went back to my wrench until I had the parts for an impact driver.

Sounds like your ratchet rolled low block damage compared to your high rolled wrench. You can 1-2 shot most things (right-click) with the ratchet, doing about 200 damage a hit. I'll probably never use the impact driver since it uses even more stamina plus is takes motor tool parts so you can't mass craft them

[Reckis]

I think the problem is that there is too much overlap in this "random" stat system they created for dropped items. I have seen many cases where the quality 4-6 tier 1 item I looted out performs the quality 3 or higher tier 2 items that I find or create. Same goes for the tier 2 to tier 3. Nothing pisses me off more about this game than making a quality 3 or 4 tier 2 item and finding out when it is done that my quality 4-6 tier 1 item or the scavenged quality 2 tier 2 item is better than the one I just made. It's a "Great! i just wasted those materials!" moment that I have seen too often.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea behind the system, I just think they need to narrow the range.

[Hollowprime]

Iron tools and steel tools simply need to do a lot more block damage or swing a lot faster.

[Psychodabble]

6 hours ago, Reckis said:

I think the problem is that there is too much overlap in this "random" stat system they created for dropped items. I have seen many cases where the quality 4-6 tier 1 item I looted out performs the quality 3 or higher tier 2 items that I find or create. Same goes for the tier 2 to tier 3. Nothing pisses me off more about this game than making a quality 3 or 4 tier 2 item and finding out when it is done that my quality 4-6 tier 1 item or the scavenged quality 2 tier 2 item is better than the one I just made. It's a "Great! i just wasted those materials!" moment that I have seen too often.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea behind the system, I just think they need to narrow the range.

I've been banging this drum since they introduced the variance ranges in A18. Gazz basically laughed at me and has essentially ignored the topic ever since.

[FA_Q2]

11 hours ago, Reckis said:

I think the problem is that there is too much overlap in this "random" stat system they created for dropped items. I have seen many cases where the quality 4-6 tier 1 item I looted out performs the quality 3 or higher tier 2 items that I find or create. Same goes for the tier 2 to tier 3. Nothing pisses me off more about this game than making a quality 3 or 4 tier 2 item and finding out when it is done that my quality 4-6 tier 1 item or the scavenged quality 2 tier 2 item is better than the one I just made. It's a "Great! i just wasted those materials!" moment that I have seen too often.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea behind the system, I just think they need to narrow the range.

This.

 

The quality is rather meaningless at this point because the range is so damn large.  It is just a quick indicator of the number of mod slots a tool has.  I absolutely agree they need to narrow it.

 

I would also like to see a slightly larger gap between the tiers as well. 

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

4 minutes ago, FA_Q2 said:

This.

 

The quality is rather meaningless at this point because the range is so damn large.  It is just a quick indicator of the number of mod slots a tool has.  I absolutely agree they need to narrow it.

 

I would also like to see a slightly larger gap between the tiers as well. 

Maybe they should just have quality affect durability and mod slots, but leave the damage the same values? Otherwise if they want to go the full random route, then go the full random route and have cool descriptions for the items, like crummy items could be "made in china pickaxe" and durable items could be "military grade shovel" and top notch items could be "professional grade" and then add other descriptive modifies like "destructive" for block damage and "sturdy" for durability. Go full looter rpg instead of this half assed approach.  

[Psychodabble]

9 hours ago, SenpaiThatIngnoresYou said:

Maybe they should just have quality affect durability and mod slots, but leave the damage the same values? Otherwise if they want to go the full random route, then go the full random route and have cool descriptions for the items, like crummy items could be "made in china pickaxe" and durable items could be "military grade shovel" and top notch items could be "professional grade" and then add other descriptive modifies like "destructive" for block damage and "sturdy" for durability. Go full looter rpg instead of this half assed approach.  

That's actually a really good idea. A big part of the problem with the huge ranges is that you just can't tell at a glance which item is better than the other. Descriptive names might help cut down on the time you spend staring at numbers, which is just not fun.

[Teacyn]

Other than a Pickaxe (and a Hammer since I guess that's an Iron tool) I basically totally skipped Iron tools in my A19 experimental run. I found a level 6 stone shovel on like day 8 and it was strictly better than an iron one (it did a tiny bit less block damage, instantly resolved by putting the grave buster mod + a few others on it) until they were like, level 4 or so, and at that point I was basically to Steel tools so I didn't even bother. Same happened with the Iron fireaxe, except the stone axe was only level 3. Iron tools are not worth the swing speed decreases and the massive jumps in stamina cost. Back when getting a level 5-6 stone tool basically wasn't a thing Iron tools were great because all your stone tools were weak as @%$*#!, but now that you can get a level 6 stone shovel a week in there's no reason to ever touch iron tools (except for the Pickaxe and hammer).

[beHypE]

Ranges definitely have been too large ever since than random stats have been introduced. An item being rarely better than another that has one more level is fine, but ranges should never overlap on more than +-1 level. Q2 shouldn't ever be better than Q4, it just defeats the purpose imo.

[Slaasher]

For me, iron tools are a must. I get materials and level far faster with them. I get my stamina under control with sexy T.

Steel tools on the other hand...? Not so sure they are needed.

[FileMachete]

Just my .02 cents but I think the very early game nerf to the Stone Axes mining ability was to open up room for the variance mechanic, but it wound up basically breaking early game mining as well.

 

If you step back a bit there's only a range of X effectiveness that the average player will accept. And, imo, TFPs have crossed that line on both ends.

 

Not claiming to speak for the masses, or that I'm Joe Average either. Much less know where those lines are. But I have experianced numerous alphas where this same damn thing happens over and over.

 

And trying to hide some of the pain by upping stamina drain, which costs more food/drink, just means more difficulty balance wise when you're out towards an extreme.

 

Maybe they do the following, but if so it doesn't look like it; imo they should view activities in distinct pieces, then rationalize boundries, then adjust items/mechanics to fit.

 

Pieces. Costs(Cons) Time, Boredom, Repetiveness, Initial Costs (Mats for tools, Perks), Supportive/Ongoing Costs (Food Drink Repairs) vs. Rewards(Pros) XP, Mats, Fun. And a critical piece, Availability of Supportive bits, like Coffee or "high quality food"

 

Sidebar: "high quality foods", what a sewer trap. Just a horrible idea, imo. Talking buff differences. Food values, fine, devalue Canned, ok, whatever, it serves as a push to hunt & farm instead of living off cans. But 15 'food points' should just be 'food points'. So other than eating 3 Cans vs. one Blueberrie Pie, they both do the same filling of the Food bar, and that's it. No Stamina or huge Healing Buffs. Only have those on Drinks or Medical items.

 

Get that out of the way and now you have a chance to see the forrest for the trees, balance wise.

Look at the very early game. Define a "normal" progression. How much food would the magical average player have at time point abcd. Now how much running, chopping, mining, fighting, Stamina activities do we want them to be able to do? Now with those two you've got numbers to come up with a ballpark overall food consumption rate. That's also useful for balancing Cans for sale, in loot, animal spawns, raw vegies in the world, or loot, etc.

 

Anyway. can see where I'm going with this. basically I'm frustrated by the huge "balance" swings and worse, having the same fights over and over. It insults my idea of competence.

 

 

(full disclosure, I'm playing an experiment here. I don't normally say things like the above in my posts. but I've noticed that there seems to be a good correlation between the word choices and the types of replys, regardless of the core points.)

[gurutar]

21 hours ago, SenpaiThatIngnoresYou said:

Maybe they should just have quality affect durability and mod slots, but leave the damage the same values? Otherwise if they want to go the full random route, then go the full random route and have cool descriptions for the items, like crummy items could be "made in china pickaxe" and durable items could be "military grade shovel" and top notch items could be "professional grade" and then add other descriptive modifies like "destructive" for block damage and "sturdy" for durability. Go full looter rpg instead of this half assed approach.  

if they went the Diablo 2 approach and added affixes to items, i'd probably cream my jeans. it would make looting soooo much more satisfying. the rush of finding an item with the perfect stats in D2 is pretty unbeatable.

[uselessjunkaccount]

The middle tier feels kind of pointless at the moment for weapons, tools and armor. The worst part is the massive stamina/movement penalties you get with that stuff for a tiny bit more damage that does not feel like a fair trade-off. I think the easiest fix would be to lessen the penalties for middle tier items.