So was the point of A19 to get rid of "Realism"?

[Kalen]

25 minutes ago, Onarr said:

Third way is to implement randomly generated PoI, where you do not know where loot room is. I fully intend to do this as a mod once the game hits gold.

This is really the correct answer, IMO.

 

Arguing that people shouldn't break their way into store rooms instead of going the long way around is a losing argument.   Its a game with a fully destructible environment.... thats one of its strengths.   People should be encouraged to make use of that fact not avoid it.

[Laz Man]

27 minutes ago, Kalen said:

This is really the correct answer, IMO.

 

Arguing that people shouldn't break their way into store rooms instead of going the long way around is a losing argument.   Its a game with a fully destructible environment.... thats one of its strengths.   People should be encouraged to make use of that fact not avoid it.

Funny that you mention that.  I was browsing the Nexus mod page recently and saw one for indestructable blocks for creating dungeons.  As a prefab creator, I can appreciate the ability to send a player down a specific path, however it does detract from one of the games major selling points (fully destructable world).  I think breaking into store rooms is inevitable due to how dungeon POIs are currently implemented.  Should it be difficult...sure....but not impossible.

 

I think another way to go about it (relatively quick fix) is to create a block similar to the quest satchel item, and have it have a chance to spawn in multiple locations within the POI.  The problem with doing this is designing the POI where those multiple locations are immersive loot caches...Don't make much sense in a smaller T1 POI but for a T5 it should be like that 100% of the time. given how long it takes the player to clear/explore one.

[Roland]

53 minutes ago, Boidster said:

Imagine you find yourself in a zombie apocalypse and you know there is a store-room of weapons at the top of the gun store.

This is actually the most unrealistic part of it all. People claim to want to be playing this as a realistic apocalyptic experience but then utilize knowledge their character could never know. I guess if your character had access to memories of past lives or parallel universes plus the underpinning mechanics of how the universe was working all from the get-go without needing to observe things and notice patterns.

 

If we were in a real apocalypse you wouldn't know exactly where the best loot was. You wouldn't think in terms of gamestage. You wouldn't use knowledge of under-the-hood game mechanics to gain an advantage. The heat map and game stage and spawn masks and sleeper volumes are meant to simulate events and circumstances but as soon as you use your knowledge of how those mechanics work to gain an advantage you've already left realism behind-- and that was your choice to do so. TFP are not the only stakeholders responsible for providing for a feeling of realism in the game.

 

As the puppet masters for our avatars we can only get a realistic experience if we roleplay it. We are a little too much GM at this point to be able to just play using all of our knowledge about the workings of the game and our experience from many hours of play which we then lend to our characters-- and then expect to have a truly interesting story happen.

 

I mean the same people who complain that zombies have knowledge they should not go into a game having studied the patch notes backwards and forwards in order to use knowledge their character should not use. Even something as simple as studying the map you generated before entering the game is doing something quite hypocritical if you are also complaining that zombies shouldn't know that this wall is double thick but that wall is single thick....

[Ralathar44]

5 minutes ago, Roland said:

This is actually the most unrealistic part of it all. People claim to want to be playing this as a realistic apocalyptic experience but then utilize knowledge their character could never know. I guess if your character had access to memories of past lives or parallel universes plus the underpinning mechanics of how the universe was working all from the get-go without needing to observe things and notice patterns.

 

If we were in a real apocalypse you wouldn't know exactly where the best loot was. You wouldn't think in terms of gamestage. You wouldn't use knowledge of under-the-hood game mechanics to gain an advantage. The heat map and game stage and spawn masks and sleeper volumes are meant to simulate events and circumstances but as soon as you use your knowledge of how those mechanics work to gain an advantage you've already left realism behind-- and that was your choice to do so. TFP are not the only stakeholders responsible for providing for a feeling of realism in the game.

 

As the puppet masters for our avatars we can only get a realistic experience if we roleplay it. We are a little too much GM at this point to be able to just play using all of our knowledge about the workings of the game and our experience from many hours of play which we then lend to our characters-- and then expect to have a truly interesting story happen.

 

I mean the same people who complain that zombies have knowledge they should not go into a game having studied the patch notes backwards and forwards in order to use knowledge their character should not use. Even something as simple as studying the map you generated before entering the game is doing something quite hypocritical if you are also complaining that zombies shouldn't know that this wall is double thick but that wall is single thick....

Exactly.  I also don't see people complaining when their character comes back to life after they die either.  Being unable to permanently die is one of the single most unrealistic things in the game.  Surely everyone complaining about realism deletes their save and starts again after every death :).

[RestInPieces]

13 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

The problem is when you frame the argument as a series of double standards it loses all it's merit.  It becomes a strictly subjective idea of "what I prefer" and ceases to be about actual realism.  Just be honest and say that you'd prefer the game to do x/y rather than couch your arguments as if they are about realism.  All you're doing is making a subjective list of double standards.

 Again, it is obvious that realism in games is never regarded as the absolute imitation of reality, because more often than not, gameplay has to take precedence. Depending on the genre and game itself, figuring out when to use realism to your advantage, or when realism would harm gameplay, is no rocket science, so no double standards and nothing subjective about it.

13 minutes ago, Ralathar44 said:

Suspension of disbelief does not apply here.  The game isn't a realism simulator.

Suspension of disbelief applies pretty much to every multimedia form of art. I don't know where you got that "realism simulator" thing but it is irrelevant. 

I suggest that you watch this to understand what I said in my previous post:

 

 

 

[Boidster]

12 minutes ago, Onarr said:

Well the weapons would be behind lock and a key in secure room, so you can not just get to it. And that is also the solution to the problem. Loot room is encased in steel blocks and strong door and key spawns in random loot container or drops from random enemy inside PoI.  The hardiness of the blocks would of course be varied based on Tier. This way you could still nerdpoll, but you would have hard time breaking in. Seems like good balance to me. Early game its better to find the key, later when you have good tools and explosives you just blow your way in.

I...but...this...how DARE you actually come up with reasonable ideas?!? 🙂 I absolutely agree that shortcuts to the loot should come with significant risk - as significant perhaps as just going through the POI, depending on the player's perks/skills. Now, having a steel-reinforced concrete vault in the back of the small-town Shotgun Messiah might set off the "realism!" folks, but the idea of having a special key is kinda neat. Randomly-placed loot rooms is also a good idea especially in bigger POIs.

[Kalen]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

This is actually the most unrealistic part of it all. People claim to want to be playing this as a realistic apocalyptic experience but then utilize knowledge their character could never know. I guess if your character had access to memories of past lives or parallel universes plus the underpinning mechanics of how the universe was working all from the get-go without needing to observe things and notice patterns.

 

If we were in a real apocalypse you wouldn't know exactly where the best loot was. You wouldn't think in terms of gamestage. You wouldn't use knowledge of under-the-hood game mechanics to gain an advantage. The heat map and game stage and spawn masks and sleeper volumes are meant to simulate events and circumstances but as soon as you use your knowledge of how those mechanics work to gain an advantage you've already left realism behind-- and that was your choice to do so. TFP are not the only stakeholders responsible for providing for a feeling of realism in the game.

 

As the puppet masters for our avatars we can only get a realistic experience if we roleplay it. We are a little too much GM at this point to be able to just play using all of our knowledge about the workings of the game and our experience from many hours of play which we then lend to our characters-- and then expect to have a truly interesting story happen.

 

I mean the same people who complain that zombies have knowledge they should not go into a game having studied the patch notes backwards and forwards in order to use knowledge their character should not use. Even something as simple as studying the map you generated before entering the game is doing something quite hypocritical if you are also complaining that zombies shouldn't know that this wall is double thick but that wall is single thick....

This is why more randomization of POIs would be awesome.   I pretty much always do POIs by following the intended path, but I can't stop using my personal knowledge of their design, "I know there's likely to be a sleeper in that cabinet..... or I know a bunch of zombies are going to fall from the ceiling.... or I know that floor is going to collapse when I step on it".   I would love to not have that knowledge.

 

 

[Boidster]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

2 hours ago, Boidster said:

Imagine you find yourself in a zombie apocalypse and you know there is a store-room of weapons at the top of the gun store.

This is actually the most unrealistic part of it all. People claim to want to be playing this as a realistic apocalyptic experience but then utilize knowledge their character could never know. I guess if your character had access to memories of past lives or parallel universes plus the underpinning mechanics of how the universe was working all from the get-go without needing to observe things and notice patterns.

IS NOT. 😝 Perhaps I was a frequent customer of that particular gun store before the apocalypse, did'ja ever think of that huh? Huh?

 

I actually agree with you, seeing as my definition of "cheese" is only, "using knowledge or abilities the survivor would not have". I don't think any particular arrangement of player-crafted blocks can ever constitute "cheese". My argument was more about how "realistic" it is for a person with the knowledge to take the direct route. Even within the game world and with RP, it is not unreasonable for a survivor, having looted one cookie-cutter Shotgun Messiah, to presume certain things about the other stores' layouts. Every single Home Depot has contractor entrance on one side (same side as the lumber) and electrical/paint on the other side with cabinetry/appliances in the back and tools near the registers. If I loot a Home Depot and find a safe in the manager's office, perhaps the next Home Depot I loot I'll just go in the back door to get the safe first.

 

Randomized loot rooms would be an excellent semi-counter to this.

 

I personally don't care too much about realism, but more about consistency. If the world allows me to break blocks and place ladders, then I ought to be able to do that anywhere and everywhere in the game world (at least non-game-breaking places; I get the exemption for Traders). If it's RP for me to do so or not, that's between me and the FSM. I think we kinda agree there.

[Strykhar]

"Why are primitive tools even a lootable object?"

 

The answer and problem is the search of game play balance with existing game mechanics and item sets.  After playing A19 for some time, I agree with TFP direction; however, it could be better executed with additional item tiers or item mechanics.

 

An issue with recent changes is that stone tools are superior to iron/steel due to mods for level 5 & 6 stone tools and their low stamina usage with the current hunger system.  This is until you dump at least 2 points into T-Rex and have an ergo mod applied to your iron/steel tool.  At least, that's how it plays for me, currently in experimental a19.

 

TFP could set stone tools to be craft item only, then add an additional tool material level/tier between stone and iron which are marginally better than stone , or implement a item/game mechanic to limit or nerf the looted iron/steel tools found early game. 

 

As examples:

• An extremely low quality/defective iron & steel item flag/attribute which will cause the item to never equal their "normal" counter parts.
  • non-repairable, destroyed when broke/at random, sells for next to nothing, or functionally defective and inferior to late game/crafted options. 

 

In short, they're balancing the game not balancing realism or immersion.  Let's be honest, this game has very little realism or "immersion", if any.  It's just a fun game with very simple game mechanics.

[meganoth]

3 minutes ago, Boidster said:

IS NOT. 😝 Perhaps I was a frequent customer of that particular gun store before the apocalypse, did'ja ever think of that huh? Huh?

 

So the gun store manager shows his frequent customers where the valuable guns are? Tell me the managers name, I'll have him fired immediatly.

 

Meganoth,

CEO Shotgun Messiah

"We please to aim"

 

[Bashtiks]

2 hours ago, Boidster said:

Imagine you find yourself in a zombie apocalypse and you know there is a store-room of weapons at the top of the gun store. Would you open the front door and fight your way through the former employees, or throw your extension ladder up the wall and try to grab the guns unseen? You have chosen to play in a world where several other people have the same incentives and goals as you do. Why are you angry that they are accomplishing those goals in their own way? Seems to me that "crap, someone has already looted this place" is a pretty damn realistic portrayal of a true multiple-survivor every-person-for-him/herself apocalypse. Even PvE is PvP in this game.

 

I'm keen to read how, in a sandbox, fully-destructible/buildable voxel world, you could ever solve the issue you are concerned about.

you got me wrong ...

It was as example why there is NO reason to be angry or annoyed and similar situations may occur even playing ''fair'' ..

[Boidster]

2 minutes ago, Bashtiks said:

you got me wrong ...

It was as example why there is NO reason to be angry or annoyed and similar situations may occur even playing ''fair'' ..

You got me wrong - I was responding to Onarr. 🙂 But I think in the end I agree with both of you for the most part. Also I agree with Roland. Look, I'm generally a pretty agreeable person is what I'm saying. Unless, of course, you're wrong and then it's:

[Ralathar44]

2 hours ago, RestInPieces said:

 Again, it is obvious that realism in games is never regarded as the absolute imitation of reality, because more often than not, gameplay has to take precedence. Depending on the genre and game itself, figuring out when to use realism to your advantage, or when realism would harm gameplay, is no rocket science, so no double standards and nothing subjective about it.
 

Suspension of disbelief applies pretty much to every multimedia form of art. I don't know where you got that "realism simulator" thing but it is irrelevant. 

I suggest that you watch this to understand what I said in my previous post: 

You're absolutely making double standards because you're trying to personally dictate what realism matters and what realism doesn't.  You are, by definition, creating two sets of standards on where realism should and should not matter.  No amount of handwaving you do changes that and you can't speak circles around it.  It's the foundational basis of your argumentation and it's why you will continue to find a lack of success.  You'll find a few folks that agree with you online, but games will not be designed that way and most people do not want games designed that way.

Also linking what is basically a visual novel done in game form doesn't support your point any.  The Walking Dead games barely have any gameplay.  They are essentially just a comic story rendered inside of a game engine with limited choices available to you.  It's almost pure story and pure "immersion" because that's all that product is.  That is totally fine and appropriate for that specific game.  But the rules of each game do not apply to all other games.  Each is designed specifically to deliver different experiences and most games are not a "walking simulator" with marginal gameplay.  Drawing parallels between two radically different games implying that the same rules apply to both is incredibly disingenuous and shows a remarkable lack of understanding of even the most basic levels of game design.

The Long Dark for example is a fantastic story based and more immersive survival game that's most closer to what 7DTD is.  But despite being the same genre they are still incredibly far apart in the experience they try and deliver.  TLD survival mode is bland and uninteresting and the game had very little success before it unveiled it's story mode despite being far more realistic in terms of gameplay.  However once they had a story to back up their mechanics their more realistic mechanics helped you become immersed in that story.  The mechanics served to make you appreciate the setting of the world and the danger of the environment along with the risk of the people.  Essentially in TLD mechanics are used as story telling of their own to enhance the core story.  It's in service of the story.  Everything comes together as a cohesive whole to deliver the primary drive of that game: the story experience.    But the mechanics on their own kinda suck for any long term play. TLD delivers on story, not gameplay.  7DTD doesn't have that, it's a game @%$*#! game you play for the mechanics.  Not the immersion, not the story, the gameplay.  That is what 7DTD is aimed at and that's what it delivers in spades. 

TFP knows what kind of game they are making, your argument does not.  I hope they change the appearance of the loot containers in accordance with gamestage though so people can start @%$*#!ing about it without throwing realism around so disingenously :P.  Have low gamestage containers be previously opened and already "looted" and have higher gamestage containers sealed.  That way the reason you're getting lower tier loot is that someone else beat you to it.  Air drops could be easily explained even with current boxes in a lore friendly way, they are dropping essential supplies...not their best stuff that they are keeping for themselves.

[JaxTeller718]

4 hours ago, Onarr said:

Well the weapons would be behind lock and a key in secure room, so you can not just get to it. And that is also the solution to the problem. Loot room is encased in steel blocks and strong door and key spawns in random loot container or drops from random enemy inside PoI.  The hardiness of the blocks would of course be varied based on Tier. This way you could still nerdpoll, but you would have hard time breaking in. Seems like good balance to me. Early game its better to find the key, later when you have good tools and explosives you just blow your way in.

Second way to counter it is to spread the loot through out the POI instead having it in one single room. 

 

Third way is to implement randomly generated PoI, where you do not know where loot room is. I fully intend to do this as a mod once the game hits gold.

You forgot the 4th way. People COULD stop being cheesy and selfish when on servers. But we already know even suggesting that playing fairly or level designers "dictating" how they want you to play their...designed levels..... is fascist so.

[marbu]

thats why i teached myselfe LUA, C++, 3D Studio max so i can change whatever @%$*#! i want in almost any game

[RestInPieces]

3 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

You're absolutely making double standards because you're trying to personally dictate what realism matters and what realism doesn't.  You are, by definition, creating two sets of standards on where realism should and should not matter.  No amount of handwaving you do changes that and you can't speak circles around it.  It's the foundational basis of your argumentation and it's why you will continue to find a lack of success.  You'll find a few folks that agree with you online, but games will not be designed that way and most people do not want games designed that way.

Ok, here's what "double standards" means:

Quote

 

A double standard is the application of different sets of principles for situations that are, in principle, the same

Applying different principles to similar-looking situations may or may not indicate a double standard. In order to distinguish between the application of a double-standard and the valid application of different standards towards circumstances that only appear to be the same, several factors must be examined. One is the sameness of those circumstances - what are the parallels between those circumstances, and in what ways do they differ?

 

A few examples of how there are actually different situations, in which realism is evaluated differently:

 

Structural Integrity: Realism is used to make building more interesting.

Biome temperatures: Realism is used to diversify biomes.

Injuries: Realism is used to diversify gameplay and give players different challenges to deal with.

All of that while adding to immersion.

 

Item weight: Realism in this case would be completely restrictive for core parts of the game e.g. building.

Zombies destroying steel etc: Realism in this case would make the TD/Survival part obsolete.  

Injury duration: Realism in this case would make the game borderline unplayable.

 

So here you have it. Realism can be either great or harmful, in different situations and quantities, judging by the effect it has on gameplay.

 

3 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

Also linking what is basically a visual novel done in game form doesn't support your point any.  The Walking Dead games barely have any gameplay.  They are essentially just a comic story rendered inside of a game engine with limited choices available to you.  It's almost pure story and pure "immersion" because that's all that product is.  That is totally fine and appropriate for that specific game.  But the rules of each game do not apply to all other games.  Each is designed specifically to deliver different experiences and most games are not a "walking simulator" with marginal gameplay.  Drawing parallels between two radically different games implying that the same rules apply to both is incredibly disingenuous and shows a remarkable lack of understanding of even the most basic levels of game design.

 

The Long Dark for example is a fantastic story based and more immersive survival game that's most closer to what 7DTD is ................ Not the immersion, not the story, the gameplay.  That is what 7DTD is aimed at and that's what it delivers in spades. 

Saying that only "pure story games" should care about immersion is just unheard of. First of all, the video doesn't only refer to those "pure immersion" games you are talking about. Immersion is much more than narrative and even a game with zero narrative can invoke it. Not to mention that narrative doesn't only include writing, but also visual cues, environment etc.

 

Here is a good article that explains this: https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/120720/Analysis_The_Psy@%$*#!gy_of_Immersion_in_Video_Games.php

Quote

 

- Multiple channels of sensory information
- Completeness of sensory information
- Cognitively demanding environments
- A strong and interesting narrative, plot, or story

- Lack of incongruous visual cues in the game world
- Consistent behavior from things in the game world
- An unbroken presentation of the game world
- Interactivity with items in the game world

 

7DTD already ticks a lot of these boxes. I'll let you guess which one of these is affected by the rigid level scaling.

So again, no, I am "not drawing parallels" apparently.

 

3 hours ago, Ralathar44 said:

TFP knows what kind of game they are making, your argument does not.

 

[HungryZombie]

I really like being limited by stone tools to start with, then moving to Iron, etc. It was really lame to just jump past stone and iron tools into steel by week 2. In my 1000s of hours playing I'd make the starting stone axe and use it till I found a steel axe and pick. Iron stuff just got scrapped or sold. I like the feeling of progression the new system gives.

 

The issue people have I think, is with loot crates. I agree It does feel odd that gun safes only have blunderbusses in them and tool crates only have stone axes.

 

For me it would be better for them to decrease the amounts of crates in the world so we are not faced with the frustration of finding a great loot box and only finding crap items in it. Make the loot boxes only start spawning as your game stage increase.

 

This makes it a win/win. People won't have immersion problems because they won't find any weapon crates early on.

[Roland]

On 7/12/2020 at 9:34 AM, Ramethzer0 said:

Immersion is a strange double edged sword.  But, one thing I'd like to point out is the TFP have also stated that this game has arcade elements.  I like that the tech levels are spaced and pacing is meant to become more relevant.  I feel this is a good thing.  Yes, opening up a crate of fresh meat in the desert sun is immersion breaking, but the game as a whole is still pretty enjoyable.  There are compromises to consider.

 

 

No, but see...keeping stacks of meat in a wooden crate in the desert is okay with the immersion police. It’s the finding a blunderbus when they wanted an assault rifle that apparently gets them swarming. 😜

8 minutes ago, HungryZombie said:

 

For me it would be better for them to decrease the amounts of crates in the world so we are not faced with the frustration of finding a great loot box and only finding crap items in it. Make the loot boxes only start spawning as your game stage increase.

 

This makes it a win/win. People won't have immersion problems because they won't find any weapon crates early on.

I’d rather they have “broken t2 items” In there that can’t be repaired and can only be scrapped for parts. That would allow players to craft basic t2 weapons that they find a schematic for possibly before the primitive stage ends. 

[Ralathar44]

3 minutes ago, HungryZombie said:

The issue people have I think, is with loot crates. I agree It does feel odd that gun safes only have blunderbusses in them and tool crates only have stone axes.

 

For me it would be better for them to decrease the amounts of crates in the world so we are not faced with the frustration of finding a great loot box and only finding crap items in it. Make the loot boxes only start spawning as your game stage increase.

 

This makes it a win/win. People won't have immersion problems because they won't find any weapon crates early on.

Or just make safes and loot crates that are low gamestage spawn a new variant that look like they've already been looted.  That way you're getting what people left behind rather than what was originally there.  Also make them unlocked.  As the gamestage rises and the areas get more dangerous you start finding the traditional locked/sealed safes/loot crates because the danger has deterred would be scavengers....so you find better stuff.

But those upset are not arguing for these solutions, they are arguing that they want better stuff earlier, they are just doing it in a really roundabout way to disguise their true intentions.  I mean look at the OPs poll.  If we were REALLY talking about immersion then we would not be finding a ton of sealed crates full of loot packed up "probably over a hundred years ago. " as they said in their poll.  Everything would have already been looted long ago and finding an undisturbed cache freshly sealed still would be insanely rare.  But you don't see them complaining about that despite it being incredibly immersion breaking.

In what post apoc world 100ish years past the apocalypse are you going to find unlooted locations everywhere?  We couldn't even go a week into a pandemic without buying out the supermarkets, gun stores, and especially toilet paper lol.

[Roland]

I agree that some of the posts seem to be thinly disguised pining for early op loot. Even when TFP adds zip guns, pipe guns, and other primitive weapons for each type they won’t be glad for the variety because “those guns suck and are boring”

[Boidster]

5 minutes ago, Roland said:

I agree that some of the posts seem to be thinly disguised pining for early op loot. Even when TFP adds zip guns, pipe guns, and other primitive weapons for each type they won’t be glad for the variety because “those guns suck and are boring”

 

Zorg ZF-1 or GTFO.

[RestInPieces]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

No, but see...keeping stacks of meat in a wooden crate in the desert is okay with the immersion police. It’s the finding a blunderbus when they wanted an assault rifle that apparently gets them swarming.

 

Anyone who says it's ok not to have spoilage is not a true officer. Fridge existence in the 7DTD world is a mystery that keeps many of us up at night.

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I’d rather they have “broken t2 items” In there that can’t be repaired and can only be scrapped for parts. That would allow players to craft basic t2 weapons that they find a schematic for possibly before the primitive stage ends. 

That would make more sense for "high value" containers. Even better, if they adjust POI/zone difficulty and make it less dependent on the player.

[Boidster]

5 minutes ago, RestInPieces said:

adjust POI/zone difficulty and make it less dependent on the player.

I'm out of likes for today, so here's an internet fist bump.

 

 

I very much like the idea that Forest=easy, Wasteland=hard, other three are different levels of 'medium'. And certain types of loot can only be only found in certain biomes. So there's a geographic progression along with character progression, and incentive - maybe nearly mandatory pressure - to explore other biomes as the game goes on. Right now, the Wasteland can be a pain in the @%$*#!, but frankly I have no need to go there really. Worst case I'm just passing through, kiting some vultures.

[Onarr]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

No, but see...keeping stacks of meat in a wooden crate in the desert is okay with the immersion police. It’s the finding a blunderbus when they wanted an assault rifle that apparently gets them swarming. 😜

 

Well the immersion police, that is just argument they use. You just translate it into - I do not like it. And I think we can agree that current stone age implementation has a lot to be desired. Can we? 

8 hours ago, Roland said:

I agree that some of the posts seem to be thinly disguised pining for early op loot. Even when TFP adds zip guns, pipe guns, and other primitive weapons for each type they won’t be glad for the variety because “those guns suck and are boring”

I really see the problem in those items having absolutely no value. Add some value to them and problem should be solved. It could be sold for 100 caps, scraped for some more rare components like duct tape etc. Or instead of those just put there a some weapon parts so with perk you can craft T2 firearms. What sucks is that you bother with clearing PoI and in loot you have almost no value. That is what needs to be balanced.

[Solomon]

This update only managed one thing to do greatly and that is breaking the immersion.

 

Imagine my situation, i load up my server with my friends, get our crafting game starting and make an ugly base in the middle of the freakin desert. One of us spots a military base lookin thing nearby in the forest, we go in, die and kill a bunch of shambling dead. We enter this room with the closed door and the bulletproof glass and start to smash it.

After a long and exhausting smashing period we enter the room to be ambushed by 4 more dead what we manage to kill without a single death, we see safes and gunsafes!

 

"Finally some actual tools to fight these shamblers!"

 

We beat the hell out of the safes and see a bunch of stone tools, the exact same stuff what we already have on us. We decided to stop playing for now and most probably will revert back to A18 after this experimental failure.

 

 

I dont ask for full realism but atleast make sure that the efforts are always rewarded in some degree and fit the area where they are in. We did not loot a prehistoric cave expedition where archeologists were trying to kill us but a military base. I shouldnt have to mod the game so the loot actually makes sense.