Catering to New Players hurts Replayability for Experienced Players

[ZombieSurvivor]

All I have to say is the game feels far more like a ghost town then it ever has. little to no roaming zombies, everybody is asleep, and wandering hordes are so incredibly lame as they are now. The only time the game feels out to get you is on horde night. Pre A17 it never felt quite like this.

 

Game is still fun but seems to be lacking that "relentless enemy" feeling that got me hooked in the first place. I know MM mentioned a dynamic something or other but that's no guarantee.

 

I felt the same exact way and my solution for that was to turn up roaming zombie count from 1 to 2 in every biome and to cut in half the respawn days of roaming zombies in XML file. this populates the world more with zombies and makes it feel a lot more like A16...so I've been told by everyone on my server and I feel the same. You could try that and see if it helps.

[Liesel Weppen]

Removed insults

 

You have 1000 hours playtime and complain about it became boring now?

 

I have "only" around 500 hours since A15 and it continues to become more and more boring, even with mods.

 

There have been exactly 3 games i've ever played and came slightly above 1000 hours... and guess what... they became boring.

 

What do people expect? The same game with the same scenario becoming over and over reinvented again and therefore stays interesting forever? Paying 30 bucks once and got a lifetimesupport of fun?

 

Hint: Move on, play other games. There are 3-5 other games out there you could play. A friend told me that once. I couldn't believe it but i looked it up and to my surprise, he was right.

 

Antoher hint: Choose a game that is not zombie-apocalypse-survival-crafting...

[ktr]

I have to agree that its too simple to get what you need or want. One of my favorite things was mining and the above ground stones that appear for every mineral is taking away my fun of exploring deep mines for my needed minerals. As well a the fact that you can buy everything at a trader, Gyrocopters to Chemistry Stations means less to look forward to in later game stages. the books are cool but some recipes could be locked for a later game stage. In other words there is not much to look forward to in the future and its become a bit more like a FPS with elements of survival, base building and crafting, when it was much better as a survival, base building and crafting game with FPS elements.

 

Its kind of a hand holding Oblivion with fast travel and quest markers compared to Morrowind, well that's an exaggeration of course as it is still a good game (as was Oblivion), it just seems now its taken a step back from previous versions IMO.

 

If I had a wish list it would be:

1) Go back to deep exploration mining to find the best sources of materials especially oil shale, and bring back iron ore instead of only scrap iron.

2) Cut down on the recipes for advanced crafting.

3) Allow players to build purple items in late stages.

4) Do not sell certain items such as vehicles, chemistry stations and the like at traders.

 

Sorry if this sounds like a whiny rant, I just agree with the boredom the OP is experiencing. Although it may more than likely be just me bored in gaming in general, in which case its not the games fault. I was playing Jagged Alliance: Back In Action and that game did get me way addicted the way 7 Days used to, so I don't know, maybe like BB King and "the thrill is gone" type-thing.

 

1.) There would need to be a lot more to explore underground for me to thumbs up the first part. Mining early game at night was fine for me, but given the choice of exploring above ground or tinking endlessly in a hole to find ore veins, I'll take the new setup any day. I admit, I will forever be baffled about wanting iron ore back. Iron - or scrap iron for that matter - was never, IME, so hard to find that the change to having it all be scrap iron changed anything for me. It was just one less icon.

 

2.) Objection! Seriously tho, I love the option to buy things like that from the trader. It doesn't mean that INT is King for crafting, but you also don't get the bonuses that INT and it's skills give which still gives value to the INT and it's stuff, but without locking the player out of those advancements. Could prices be different? Eh maybe, but as someone that really does like to play a scavenger style, this is one of my favorite changes that they made.

 

3.) I think keeping purple locked to scavenging/trader is fine. Each of these systems need to have a point and purpose in the game. I do wish they'd open up more mod slots tho. If there is one thing that bothers me about crafting rn is that the difference between Q1 & Q2/Q3 & Q4 don't really feel worth crafting new gear without the additional mod slot.

 

4.) Point two covers this.

 

I don't think you're whining. We all have preferences. I prefer to play AGI builds, but it'd be a heck of a lot harder if I couldn't get some of that stuff from the trader and underground mining would be a pain without Miner69er.

[Odetta]

I felt the same exact way and my solution for that was to turn up roaming zombie count from 1 to 2 in every biome and to cut in half the respawn days of roaming zombies in XML file. this populates the world more with zombies and makes it feel a lot more like A16...so I've been told by everyone on my server and I feel the same. You could try that and see if it helps.

 

Oh I do use mods/modlets to do this. I'm just saying vanilla has become empty. Had my cousin ask when he first got the game where all the zombies were. I told them they are asleep in the buildings and you have to wake them. His response rhymed with "hay".

[Ghostlight]

Fallout skyrim borderlands all have replayability over and over cause its not easy it doesnt hand the easy route to players.

 

I quit my first and only Skyrim playthrough because I was basically untouchable. No enemy could do anything to me.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I felt the same exact way and my solution for that was to turn up roaming zombie count from 1 to 2 in every biome and to cut in half the respawn days of roaming zombies in XML file. this populates the world more with zombies and makes it feel a lot more like A16...so I've been told by everyone on my server and I feel the same. You could try that and see if it helps.

 

I went for zombie count to 10 and respawn 0.1. Still not quite A16 but getting there.

[Ghostlight]

Sorry but the eye rolling i think is us towards some of the things like how easy and boring this game gets quickly.

 

Set difficulty Insane, Zombie speed to Nightmare (always), XP gain to 300%, 30 min day cycle. Biome zombie count tweaked up as discussed.

 

Still boring?

[Ghostlight]

Dont know what I can tell you...example...

 

<biome name="city">

<spawn maxcount="10" respawndelay="0.1" time="Day" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />

<spawn maxcount="10" respawndelay="0.1" time="Night" entitygroup="ZombiesNight" />

<spawn maxcount="1" respawndelay="1" time="Any" entitygroup="ZombieDogGroup" />

</biome>

 

I also set the perception stat to 250. I forget what it's called now but I think it's important. Otherwise a large number could spawn but still never interact. At 250 they are heading towards you from everywhere as soon as they spawn. The only problem is that even at respawn 0.1 they come in waves and there is a definite lull if you kill them all which makes it feel "non-organic".

 

One thing I will say, I originally had it at 5 day and 7 night and it was decent. When I upped it to 10 I really didn't see much effect to be honest.

[bobrpggamer]

I quit my first and only Skyrim playthrough because I was basically untouchable. No enemy could do anything to me.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

I went for zombie count to 10 and respawn 0.1. Still not quite A16 but getting there.

My gripe with Skyrim and Oblivion is I played Morrowind first. Morrowind was the all out winner for hours played probably over 1000 hours (before steam counting was a thing). Another reason graphics do not always make a game greater.

 

Personally my thing is not the ease of combat or zombie count, I am more into the mining, scavenging, crafting and base building and these things have not been as fun as usual, aside from the base building in which I have not started my final base yet.

[Ghostlight]

I also think that the game is balanced for 8 zombies at a time.

 

I don't think do. For the simple reason that 8 zombies at a time is really zero challenge. I'm not trying to sound like an ass but even on Insane, 8 zombies at a time is not an issue. I've tried it. Lots. Even though it is 8 per player and there were 2 of us, so 16, it was a pretty weak assault. We also tended to use base designs that kept vultures out and flying harmlessly overhead. This makes the horde thin as the night passes out as your 16 zombie limit ends up being all vultures that are not engaging, and no ground zombies can spawn then. It's a serious problem when you set it 8.

 

We upped it to 24 the moment my friend's machine could handle it and the game is far more satisfying. I think 8 was chosen as the default for performance only.

 

You can build bases that can handle 64 zombies + demolishers without using exploits but you will have to spend a lot of resources on this type of base.

 

Depends. If your base can handle lots of explosives use, then larger maxAlive can be easier as you are taking out more of them for fewer resource if they are appearing in bigger crowds. We are mass-producing explosives these days where we used to use bullets, now that we figured demolishers out (and they got nerfed).

 

News flash! Not really related but in my current solo run, Survivalist difficulty, I just did my day 63 horde. I am level 105, Gamestage was 332 and I got ZERO Demolishers. I know its RNG but wth??

[Tin]

Dont know what I can tell you...example...

 

<biome name="city">

<spawn maxcount="10" respawndelay="0.1" time="Day" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />

<spawn maxcount="10" respawndelay="0.1" time="Night" entitygroup="ZombiesNight" />

<spawn maxcount="1" respawndelay="1" time="Any" entitygroup="ZombieDogGroup" />

</biome>

 

I also set the perception stat to 250. I forget what it's called now but I think it's important. Otherwise a large number could spawn but still never interact. At 250 they are heading towards you from everywhere as soon as they spawn. The only problem is that even at respawn 0.1 they come in waves and there is a definite lull if you kill them all which makes it feel "non-organic".

 

One thing I will say, I originally had it at 5 day and 7 night and it was decent. When I upped it to 10 I really didn't see much effect to be honest.

 

Just do this to all your biomes spawns.

 

<spawn maxcount="3" respawndelay="0" time="Day" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />

<spawn maxcount="3" respawndelay="0" time="Any" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />

<spawn maxcount="3" respawndelay="0" time="Night" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />

 

If you want to get a bit more out of it double the lines.

<spawn maxcount="3" respawndelay="0" time="Day" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />

<spawn maxcount="3" respawndelay="0" time="Day" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />

 

respawndelay="0" works for instant respawn in 18.3. Kill one, and another will spawn to take its place.

 

Sorry to say but, the "city" adjustments doesn't do anything. Only the biome portions themselves.

At least from everything I tested out recently for a18.3

[Ghostlight]

Sorry to say but, the "city" adjustments doesn't do anything. Only the biome portions themselves.

 

I changed every biome and just picked that one as an example as it was first in the list. It illustrates the pattern I used. Never thought of setting respawn to 0. Thanks for that! This could be what I have been missing.

 

So what's the difference between

 

<spawn maxcount="3" respawndelay="0" time="Day" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />

<spawn maxcount="3" respawndelay="0" time="Day" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />

 

and

 

<spawn maxcount="6" respawndelay="0" time="Day" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />

[Tin]

I changed every biome and just picked that one as an example as it was first in the list. It illustrates the pattern I used. Never thought of setting respawn to 0. Thanks for that! This could be what I have been missing.

 

So what's the difference between

 

<spawn maxcount="3" respawndelay="0" time="Day" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />

<spawn maxcount="3" respawndelay="0" time="Day" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />

 

and

 

<spawn maxcount="6" respawndelay="0" time="Day" entitygroup="ZombiesAll" />

 

Rock on!

The biggest thing to take away is they have stuff in the xmls that no longer apply, and that was one of them

Ofc maybe one day it'll be used again (shrug), but for now

 

edit: sorry. Not fully sure why it works, but it makes 2 zeds spawn closer together for whatever reason. bug?! not sure. only that it works

[meganoth]

Rock on!

The biggest thing to take away is they have stuff in the xmls that no longer apply, and that was one of them

Ofc maybe one day it'll be used again (shrug), but for now

 

edit: sorry. Not fully sure why it works, but it makes 2 zeds spawn closer together for whatever reason. bug?! not sure. only that it works

 

Iif you throw dice, throwing 2 three-sided dice is different from throwing 1 six-sided die. The former can't throw a 1 at all and will throw a 4 in a third of all cases.

 

Just a guess, this could be the same.

[Tin]

Iif you throw dice, throwing 2 three-sided dice is different from throwing 1 six-sided die. The former can't throw a 1 at all and will throw a 4 in a third of all cases.

 

Just a guess, this could be the same.

 

Possible. Either way. Not going to question why it works, but if it is a bug? .... I hope they don't "fix" it

[Laz Man]

It's really not. I've barely played FO4 and I have to stick it on the hardest difficulty to be a challenge.

 

 

 

Darkest Dungeon, XCOM, FTL...

 

All rogue-like games. All punish you to hell and back as soon as you start playing. All of which have achieved critical acclaim in some way (and two of those are indie titles). Even MINECRAFT is hard to begin with if you have no-one to guide you.

 

So no. The vanilla game does not have to be accessable at all. In fact, i've been keeping an eye on twitch and folks just starting in A17/A18 are sticking it on Insane, always run, nightmare zombies just for a challenge now. Folks didn't used to do that in earlier alphas (admittedly there was no nightmare speed, but insane, always run gameplay was not as common as it is now).

 

Vanilla could do with a kick up the arse to be more challenging and more focused on the survival aspect. I feel 7DTD has lost that and become more of a looter/shooter these days, and that's quite sad.

 

That doesnt speak for everyone. I know people who are enjoying A18 compared to older versions and the game is still challenging for them/us. (Adventuer Difficulty)

[KhaineGB]

That doesnt speak for everyone. I know people who are enjoying A18 compared to older versions and the game is still challenging for them/us. (Adventuer Difficulty)

 

And yet the vast majority seem to be cranking it up because it's too easy.

 

If you're struggling, look at how you're playing. Contrary to popular belief, it IS possible to play a game like this wrong.

[Roland]

And yet the vast majority seem to be cranking it up because it's too easy.

 

If you're struggling, look at how you're playing. Contrary to popular belief, it IS possible to play a game like this wrong.

 

Wait...you don't just have the majority? You have the VAAAAAAST majority on your side?!?!!?!

 

BTW, you have made his point for him. The game has a learning curve that cause people to need "to look at how they're playing". It is possible to "play a game like this wrong" precisely because it isn't obvious or basic or simple for those who haven't already put many hours into it and they will need time playing before it becomes simple for them.

 

The fact that the game has settings that can be "cranked up" to satisfy elite gamers like you and your vast majority is a pro in its favor and not a con like you are making it out to be.

 

I hate it when people talk about the modability of this game as some sort of derogatory thing or treat it as some sort of sly thing that people are doing in spite of the developers as though the modders are pulling one over on TFP and Madmole and the rest are probably ashamed and chagrined that lots of people like to play Ravenhearst or Darkness Falls. The truth is they are overjoyed that people are using the tools they provided to create alternative ways of playing-- and that includes greater difficulty.

 

It is unfathomable to me why someone like Stallionsden who is a modder and can bake into his version of the game whatever difficulty he wants and has zero hesitation or reticence or phobia about playing a modded game-- why he would even complain about Vanilla of all things. Why would he ever play vanilla with his 1000's of hours?

 

What the heck is wrong with people turning up the difficulty if they want? Even if it is the vast majority of servers--does that even scratch the surface of the number of people playing this game SP and not represented at all in your inventory of who is playing on Insane? We really don't know. All we know is that A18 is the most popular and longest living version of all time and even if that is thanks in big part to mods like some people like to point out as though that settles the argument it STILL counts because the mods are possible because of the generosity of these developers.

[stallionsden]

Wait...you don't just have the majority? You have the VAAAAAAST majority on your side?!?!!?!

 

BTW, you have made his point for him. The game has a learning curve that cause people to need "to look at how they're playing". It is possible to "play a game like this wrong" precisely because it isn't obvious or basic or simple for those who haven't already put many hours into it and they will need time playing before it becomes simple for them.

 

The fact that the game has settings that can be "cranked up" to satisfy elite gamers like you and your vast majority is a pro in its favor and not a con like you are making it out to be.

 

I hate it when people talk about the modability of this game as some sort of derogatory thing or treat it as some sort of sly thing that people are doing in spite of the developers as though the modders are pulling one over on TFP and Madmole and the rest are probably ashamed and chagrined that lots of people like to play Ravenhearst or Darkness Falls. The truth is they are overjoyed that people are using the tools they provided to create alternative ways of playing-- and that includes greater difficulty.

 

It is unfathomable to me why someone like Stallionsden who is a modder and can bake into his version of the game whatever difficulty he wants and has zero hesitation or reticence or phobia about playing a modded game-- why he would even complain about Vanilla of all things. Why would he ever play vanilla with his 1000's of hours?

 

What the heck is wrong with people turning up the difficulty if they want? Even if it is the vast majority of servers--does that even scratch the surface of the number of people playing this game SP and not represented at all in your inventory of who is playing on Insane? We really don't know. All we know is that A18 is the most popular and longest living version of all time and even if that is thanks in big part to mods like some people like to point out as though that settles the argument it STILL counts because the mods are possible because of the generosity of these developers.

 

see there you go again. I wasnt talking bout modding the game i was talking bout vanilla. I also play that as well as a modded version ( well when i did actually play the game last).

 

you obviously need to re read what I stated clearly many times what the vanilla game was missing you have put in general section where you told me to put it. yet here you are doing it in a19 dev diary doing exactly what you said I shouldnt.. Who polices the devs...

 

nothing to do with modding or playing a modded game a majority of people need mods to make this game interesting and replayable in vanilla..

 

wait was this spose to be in general or here since you replied in here.. so i replied in here...

 

Please clear this up as you say one thing and did the complete opposite so i am confused i dont want to get in trouble again :-D

 

And also clarify isnt the a19 dev diary etc to talk and discuss the vanilla game not modded game. Thats what the dev diary is isnt it.

[KhaineGB]

Wait...you don't just have the majority? You have the VAAAAAAST majority on your side?!?!!?!

 

BTW, you have made his point for him. The game has a learning curve that cause people to need "to look at how they're playing". It is possible to "play a game like this wrong" precisely because it isn't obvious or basic or simple for those who haven't already put many hours into it and they will need time playing before it becomes simple for them.

 

The fact that the game has settings that can be "cranked up" to satisfy elite gamers like you and your vast majority is a pro in its favor and not a con like you are making it out to be.

 

I hate it when people talk about the modability of this game as some sort of derogatory thing or treat it as some sort of sly thing that people are doing in spite of the developers as though the modders are pulling one over on TFP and Madmole and the rest are probably ashamed and chagrined that lots of people like to play Ravenhearst or Darkness Falls. The truth is they are overjoyed that people are using the tools they provided to create alternative ways of playing-- and that includes greater difficulty.

 

It is unfathomable to me why someone like Stallionsden who is a modder and can bake into his version of the game whatever difficulty he wants and has zero hesitation or reticence or phobia about playing a modded game-- why he would even complain about Vanilla of all things. Why would he ever play vanilla with his 1000's of hours?

 

What the heck is wrong with people turning up the difficulty if they want? Even if it is the vast majority of servers--does that even scratch the surface of the number of people playing this game SP and not represented at all in your inventory of who is playing on Insane? We really don't know. All we know is that A18 is the most popular and longest living version of all time and even if that is thanks in big part to mods like some people like to point out as though that settles the argument it STILL counts because the mods are possible because of the generosity of these developers.

 

The "vast majority" comment comes from the fact I watch a lot of 7DTD stuff on YT, twitch, etc. A LOT of comments in chats/videos/etc seem to be folk saying that's how they play as well (regarding difficulty) because it's too easy. Way, way more than I remember from earlier alphas, and that includes some folks i've seen saying they started in A17 and cranked it up.

 

Shortly followed by other folks saying "If you think this is too easy, go install a mod or play an older alpha."

 

Personally, I still occasionally play vanilla. One reason is so I can look for basic mechanics I do/don't like so I know what to leave in or remove, and another reason is... well... sometimes it's just nice to play the game the way TFP intended (even if I still personally believe it's a pale shadow of what it used to be).

 

And I think that's the problem. A lot of us on here do remember what the game used to be, and we miss that, and a lot of that ISN'T easy to mod back in. The old bloodmoon system where zombies spawned on all sides? Can't easily mod that in (already looked into it). Fertalized farmland? Can't easily mod that in due to missing texture and microsplat. New biomes? Can't easily mod that in due to microsplat AND RWG won't spawn them. Older RWG where we could essentially have any sized map? Can't mod that back in at all (from what i've seen, though I will freely admit I don't know enough C# to even begin patching the RWG code).

 

There's some stuff we just CAN'T put back, but I do appreciate the extra options we are being given.

 

Speaking of... I do have a question.

 

How does onCombatEntered work? Is it when you shoot a zombie or when one "aggros" you? And when is the player considered to be "not in combat"? Obviously "when dead" is going to be one of options there (you or the zombie) but does it also happen if you run away far enough for the zombie to lose interest?

 

EDIT: To add to the paragraph above, will we be getting an onCombatLeft trigger in A19?

[Roland]

see there you go again. I wasnt talking bout modding the game i was talking bout vanilla. I also play that as well as a modded version ( well when i did actually play the game last).

 

you obviously need to re read what I stated clearly many times what the vanilla game was missing you have put in general section where you told me to put it. yet here you are doing it in a19 dev diary doing exactly what you said I shouldnt.. Who polices the devs...

 

nothing to do with modding or playing a modded game a majority of people need mods to make this game interesting and replayable in vanilla..

 

wait was this spose to be in general or here since you replied in here.. so i replied in here...

 

Please clear this up as you say one thing and did the complete opposite so i am confused i dont want to get in trouble again :-D

 

And also clarify isnt the a19 dev diary etc to talk and discuss the vanilla game not modded game. Thats what the dev diary is isnt it.

 

Don't worry yourself, stallions. This will get moved. You might go check out the thread and you'll see that I moved my own participation in those debates as well. No double standard. It all gets moved when it strays away from interacting directly with Madmole so that these large discussions don't drown out legitimate questions from people who appreciate directly interacting with the devs. But then... you need a bit of a buffer right now rather than directly interacting with the big guy.

[Prisma501]

I didnt say every long timer. I simply said alot of em

 

5K hours here. Loving the game more than ever. Id say there is /a lot/ of us.

 

Cheers

[Ghostlight]

And yet the vast majority seem to be cranking it up because it's too easy.

 

If you're struggling, look at how you're playing. Contrary to popular belief, it IS possible to play a game like this wrong.

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?140784-What-is-your-typical-play-pattern-(difficulty)&highlight=poll

[pApA^LeGBa]

Not even 70 people in this poll. Not saying i don´t agree but the polls on the forum can never be accurate. I think one of the polls with the most votes was about 200. Right now 14k people are playing. Relying on forum polls is something TFP shouldn´t do ever. Nore should anyone to make any arguments.

 

Regarding OP: Maybe wait until there is bandits? This will turn around a lot i assume. You are playing a game that is not ready yet and demand the full experience. That is an oxymoron.

[stallionsden]

5K hours here. Loving the game more than ever. Id say there is /a lot/ of us.

 

Cheers

 

I would say you are truly just talking bout your self and maybe a handful. and i did write in english i said alot i didnt say all. Some people need the game to be easy to play ;-)

[Ghostlight]

Not even 70 people in this poll. Not saying i don´t agree but the polls on the forum can never be accurate.

 

Polls can be reasonably accurate if they are a representative sample of the whole user base. For this poll not to be somewhat accurate we'd have to prove the sample was biased. Do you think that people who post on these furms are unusually prone to playing on easier levels? I don't. Or at least have no reason to think that.