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Catering to New Players hurts Replayability for Experienced Players

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lol...what attempts were those? This very thread is evidence to the contrary.

 

But viva la revolucion...I guess.

Haha what a fool, right, Roland? Like they always are. And I mean, after a 1000 hours it's just natural that a game becomes boring. Needless to say, if you ask me.

 

Can I haz paycheck 2?!? :smile-new:

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Putting aside opinions about how easy or hard the gameplay is, I really can't believe that someone is complaining that they've spent $24.99 (ish - possibly much less if you bought it on sale) on a game which they've had 1000 hours worth out of, and probably more to come. That works out to a measly 2.5 cents per hour! 1.5 cents per hour if you bought it on sale.
Noone is complaining that they did not get their money's worth. Complaints are directed at design changes that drastically decrease the replay value. Edited by Kubikus (see edit history)
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Haha what a fool, right, Roland? Like they always are. And I mean, after a 1000 hours it's just natural that a game becomes boring. Needless to say, if you ask me.

 

Can I haz paycheck 2?!? :smile-new:

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Noone is complaining that they did not get their money's worth. Complaints are directed at design changes that drastically decrease the replay value.

 

Sorry, but not sorry they're not going to cater to the 1000+ hr player. They're designing a game that will have 1,000s of new players instead of catering to 1000s of hour players. It would be bad business for them to do otherwise. If you got 1,000 hours of entertainment out of an alpha game the developers definitely know how to make a fun game.

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Sorry, but not sorry they're not going to cater to the 1000+ hr player. They're designing a game that will have 1,000s of new players instead of catering to 1000s of hour players. It would be bad business for them to do otherwise. If you got 1,000 hours of entertainment out of an alpha game the developers definitely know how to make a fun game.
I see no reason to assume that people are now buying the game because of the changes. I see no reason to assume that, for example, ppl were watching the game and did not like the weapons system or the progression or the map design and the zombie behaviour and then the changes of A17 made them eventually buy it. The game is simply becoming more polished, looks much better, feels more complete without loose ends.

 

Catering to the 1000+ hr player simply means (re)adding the replay value the game once had. I mean, I have a pistol with 100+ rounds on literally the 1st day now, that's basically endgame, I'm untouchable after 20 minutes of playing. How can that be good.

 

 

Edit: When I say "the changes", it might not be perfectly obvious that I am talking about the changes that older players complain about, because they decrease the replay value. I certainly appreciate new vehicles and the POI-design, new weapons, the weapon modifications and then some.

Edited by Kubikus (see edit history)

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The workbenches and how easy it is to get guns does need to be addressed in vanilla, imo. I used to celebrate when I found a basic pistol or shotgun. Now it's like "Oh, an AK."

 

I only brought up the old style of crafting because it made it WAY harder to craft what you need mid-combat. Now if folks are bleeding and have no bandages, they run off and quickly craft some. Out of arrows? Run off and quickly craft some, etc. I feel it's kinda taken the wind out of the sails for combat in the game.

 

Is crafting mid-combat crafting of bandages really important enough to return to a convoluted crafting system? If it were, wouldn't the easier solution be to make crafting a bandage take 10 seconds instead of 1 or 2 seconds as it is now. Or just make crafting impossible while in combat (a change that might be sensible anyway).

 

If you bleed and you need to craft the bandage first, you still will be down to 20 HPs before the bandage works and need lots of food you don't have at the start of the game. If that doesn't make you cautious enough to always have bandages around, nothing will.

 

Arrows: If you can run away to craft arrows you also can run away a little further until the zombies lose your scent and craft arrows with more leisure.

 

Having said that, I do miss the old mold system we had for the forges, where you had to sacrifice gun parts in order to make molds so you could make your own guns.

 

We have exactly that in A18, just less moldy (sorry for the pun).

 

------------------

 

PS: I agree we get tier2 weapons too fast, the same goes for concrete. One possible adjustment: The difficulty factor should only influence zombie gamestage but not loot gamestage.

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)

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Can I haz paycheck 2?!? :smile-new:

 

Sure. Just become a high school math teacher like me and profit.

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Sure. Just become a high school math teacher like me and profit.
Waitaminute, you don't even get paid for your tireless efforts to, you know, tell people how their criticism of Joel and the Gang is unjustified..? What drives you then?

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I see no reason to assume that people are now buying the game because of the changes. I see no reason to assume that, for example, ppl were watching the game and did not like the weapons system or the progression or the map design and the zombie behaviour and then the changes of A17 made them eventually buy it. The game is simply becoming more polished, looks much better, feels more complete without loose ends.

 

Catering to the 1000+ hr player simply means (re)adding the replay value the game once had. I mean, I have a pistol with 100+ rounds on literally the 1st day now, that's basically endgame, I'm untouchable after 20 minutes of playing. How can that be good.

 

 

Edit: When I say "the changes", it might not be perfectly obvious that I am talking about the changes that older players complain about, because they decrease the replay value. I certainly appreciate new vehicles and the POI-design, new weapons, the weapon modifications and then some.

 

Madmole said there is a weapons nerf coming. They are aware of the problem you are highlighting and will make adjustments.

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Waitaminute, you don't even get paid for your tireless efforts to, you know, tell people how their criticism of Joel and the Gang is unjustified..? What drives you then?

 

Truth.

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Madmole said there is a weapons nerf coming. They are aware of the problem you are highlighting and will make adjustments.
Great. Last game - the only one I played in A18 - btw I had a lot of fun by not spending a single skill point. The addition of those recipes (I mean the books you can find) made things a bit interesting again. Not everything was 100% forseeable anymore.

 

Truth.
You write 16k posts, often lengthy and just reiterations of what you've written dozens, if not hundred times before, to fight for the truth regarding a video game..? Fascinating. I assume you're not interested to elaborate that drive any further..? Like what relevance that truth has to you personally and if there is no "better" truth to invest so much time into..?

 

Here's some truth for you, though: What you call "Truth" here is mostly (and then often "at best") just an opinion. And what looks a lot like a job that should be well paid in many cases is merely ridiculing ppl with different opinions.

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Madmole said there is a weapons nerf coming. They are aware of the problem you are highlighting and will make adjustments.

The AK is the lowest tier of "machine gun" that can drop in the game so there is nothing else that can drop earlier.

Just one example.

 

There simply wasn't enough content to make all the weapon types have the same drop distribution.

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Great. Last game - the only one I played in A18 - btw I had a lot of fun by not spending a single skill point. The addition of those recipes (I mean the books you can find) made things a bit interesting again. Not everything was 100% forseeable anymore.

 

You write 16k posts, often lengthy and just reiterations of what you've written dozens, if not hundred times before, to fight for the truth regarding a video game..? Fascinating. I assume you're not interested to elaborate that drive any further..? Like what relevance that truth has to you personally and if there is no "better" truth to invest so much time into..?

 

Here's some truth for you, though: What you call "Truth" here is mostly (and then often "at best") just an opinion. And what looks a lot like a job that should be well paid in many cases is merely ridiculing ppl with different opinions.

 

You know you are mischaracterizing my 16k posts so you’re obviously on one of your anti-establishment missions you get going on whenever you pop in. The last couple times it has been Kub vs the Modding Establishment. I guess it’s back round to me now....

 

What I am talking about by truth is sharing my perspective as a witness to the dev chats and seeing the behind the scenes discussions about their plans and intentions. I’m sure it’s cathartic for people to speculate nefarious motives to the devs when they are angry about a change and when Inshare what is actually going on it makes them even more upset.

 

But it is a diversion that is intrinsically motivating, obviously, since I’m still here doing it.

 

Now when it is just an opinion on the game itself and people’s preferences I don’t pretend to any greater wisdom or knowledge. I just give my own preference.

 

So take your example.

 

I agree with your preference that there needs to be a greater scarcity of guns and that the current state of the game is bad.

 

If you were to then go on to state that the devs are imbeciles for doing it this way and they obviously want this game to be a looter shooter, I would feel compelled to correct you on that with my insider knowledge that the way it is now is not the final version and changes are coming.

 

Now some people see my insider knowledge as > their outsider speculation and say “That’s awesome to know!” as you did about the guns. While others decide that they know better anyway and discount what I say as me just being the company man as you also did.

 

And then there are those special souls who cannot separate giving negative feedback from breaking forum etiquette rules and when we leave their feedback intact but give them infractions for breaking the rules they spasm into “They tried to shut me up but I’ll never back down” mode.

 

And then if they go ballistic and continue to break the rules and get banned then it is always “TFP banned me for criticizing their game” when they run to discord or steam or wherever they go next.

 

But, regardless ,since I’m your target for this visit I await your next salvo...

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The AK is the lowest tier of "machine gun" that can drop in the game so there is nothing else that can drop earlier.

Just one example.

 

There simply wasn't enough content to make all the weapon types have the same drop distribution.

 

Does that mean we get more primitive and makeshift weapons?

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Does that mean we get more primitive and makeshift weapons?

 

Along with this question I'd want to know if "all the weapon types [having] the same drop distribution" is a design goal? Because I think it might not be a good design goal. "No machine guns until gamestage X" (what is X? dunno; playtest and balance as needed) seems to be a better design. Or maybe go to a gun-parts-only loot list - no more complete guns in loot. Built it or buy one (at exorbitant prices) from the trader. Money supply sort of naturally scales with gamestage. Or game day, really.

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Great. Last game - the only one I played in A18 - btw I had a lot of fun by not spending a single skill point. The addition of those recipes (I mean the books you can find) made things a bit interesting again. Not everything was 100% forseeable anymore.

 

You write 16k posts, often lengthy and just reiterations of what you've written dozens, if not hundred times before, to fight for the truth regarding a video game..? Fascinating. I assume you're not interested to elaborate that drive any further..? Like what relevance that truth has to you personally and if there is no "better" truth to invest so much time into..?

 

Here's some truth for you, though: What you call "Truth" here is mostly (and then often "at best") just an opinion. And what looks a lot like a job that should be well paid in many cases is merely ridiculing ppl with different opinions.

 

THANK YOU!! for explaining what I fail to do over and over again. Again, thank you. I do agree with all my heart!

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Im a little annoyed that every single poi in the game basically has a gun safe, chest, and shotgun messiah crate. I remember when finding a weapon actually meant something, when a low quality pistol was 70 quality and finding a pistol that was 110 was an upgrade, being able to sell the old pistol or combine with other parts to make it better and stuff.

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Im a little annoyed that every single poi in the game basically has a gun safe, chest, and shotgun messiah crate. I remember when finding a weapon actually meant something, when a low quality pistol was 70 quality and finding a pistol that was 110 was an upgrade, being able to sell the old pistol or combine with other parts to make it better and stuff.

 

Yep gone are those days of challenge and panick and fear. Now its just here you need this.. oh and this have it.

 

So many game changers have been removed that made the game fun.

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THANK YOU!! for explaining what I fail to do over and over again. Again, thank you. I do agree with all my heart!

 

Yes i agree. But what you stated also was great. Alot of people agree with you. The new ones dont know how great the game once was only what they have now so of course they enjoy the game as it is.

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Yes i agree. But what you stated also was great. Alot of people agree with you. The new ones dont know how great the game once was only what they have now so of course they enjoy the game as it is.

 

That must be why I enjoy everything in my life-- because I don't know how Roland' in Universe 4257 has it so much better.

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I also agree with the OP.

The game has become uninteresting compared to what it was.

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I also agree with the OP.

The game has become uninteresting compared to what it was.

 

Thank you not hard to see lots of people agree. The game lacks alot of what it once was. Greatness befallen

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Sure. Just become a high school math teacher like me and profit.

 

So that's where the snarkiness and barbed comments get built up from.

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Every POI now is loaded with loot. After a play through or 2 you know where every loot room is. This last play through I had 2 pistols and over 100 rounds before dark on the 1st day. Turning the z's into bullet sponges via difficulty level seems like a cheap way to up difficulty. I would love for headshots to greatly increase damage done with body shots being all but useless. I really miss the days of the center city crawling with deadly z's and loaded with loot. Now its just 1st POI and you are good.

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Is crafting mid-combat crafting of bandages really important enough to return to a convoluted crafting system? If it were, wouldn't the easier solution be to make crafting a bandage take 10 seconds instead of 1 or 2 seconds as it is now. Or just make crafting impossible while in combat (a change that might be sensible anyway).

 

If you bleed and you need to craft the bandage first, you still will be down to 20 HPs before the bandage works and need lots of food you don't have at the start of the game. If that doesn't make you cautious enough to always have bandages around, nothing will.

 

Arrows: If you can run away to craft arrows you also can run away a little further until the zombies lose your scent and craft arrows with more leisure.

 

 

 

We have exactly that in A18, just less moldy (sorry for the pun).

 

------------------

 

PS: I agree we get tier2 weapons too fast, the same goes for concrete. One possible adjustment: The difficulty factor should only influence zombie gamestage but not loot gamestage.

 

Oh god no. I don't want to see the complicated craft system come back just for that.

 

But I do feel some tweaks need to be made so players can't just run away from combat, make what they need super fast and then re-engage. That new onCombatEntered trigger might be the solution... i'll have to play with it later.

 

Basically i'm thinking something like....

 

<triggered_effect trigger="onCombatEntered" action="AddBuff" buff="buffNoCombatCrafting"/>

 

Then have a buff with say... 2 or 3 second duration that massively increases the craft time, and the buff stacks duration or the like... just as an example. Would be a bit complicated, but do-able. :)

 

The difference with the A18 system is you scrap a gun to get parts, then use that to make a new gun. In the earlier alphas (A12 and earlier) you had to find all the gun parts, and then decide if you wanted to save them to make a gun, or destroy them to make a mold, to make many guns.

 

As for the cement, I do wonder if that's partially due to how easy it is to just loop around traders until you find the working workstations you need. The blockplaceholders could probably do with some tweaks.

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You know you are mischaracterizing my 16k posts so you’re obviously on one of your anti-establishment missions you get going on whenever you pop in. The last couple times it has been Kub vs the Modding Establishment. I guess it’s back round to me now....
B9Z8xZy.gif

 

What I am talking about by truth is sharing my perspective as a witness to the dev chats and seeing the behind the scenes discussions about their plans and intentions. I’m sure it’s cathartic for people to speculate nefarious motives to the devs when they are angry about a change and when Inshare what is actually going on it makes them even more upset.

 

See, what you are sharing is your perspective. Aka your opinion.

 

"Truth" he says. Funny. No! Adorable!!

 

But it is a diversion that is intrinsically motivating, obviously, since I’m still here doing it.

 

But how is that motivating? What motivates you? I mean, you're really doing all this work for free? On the official forum of a company that makes millions? I still find that hard to believe.

 

Now when it is just an opinion on the game itself and people’s preferences I don’t pretend to any greater wisdom or knowledge. I just give my own preference.

 

So take your example.

 

I agree with your preference that there needs to be a greater scarcity of guns and that the current state of the game is bad.

 

If you were to then go on to state that the devs are imbeciles for doing it this way and they obviously want this game to be a looter shooter, I would feel compelled to correct you on that with my insider knowledge that the way it is now is not the final version and changes are coming.

 

Now some people see my insider knowledge as > their outsider speculation and say “That’s awesome to know!” as you did about the guns. While others decide that they know better anyway and discount what I say as me just being the company man as you also did.

 

And then there are those special souls who cannot separate giving negative feedback from breaking forum etiquette rules and when we leave their feedback intact but give them infractions for breaking the rules they spasm into “They tried to shut me up but I’ll never back down” mode.

 

And then if they go ballistic and continue to break the rules and get banned then it is always “TFP banned me for criticizing their game” when they run to discord or steam or wherever they go next.

 

But, regardless ,since I’m your target for this visit I await your next salvo...

Yes yes. (lol)

 

 

If, Roland, I would criticse your behaviour in an example like you lay out here and you would then explain yourself like so, that would make sense. But I criticise your behaviour in this thread, where you attack and ridicule reasonable criticism, and nothing of the absurdities you describe above are happening.

 

Why are you being mean here?

 

And the criticism here is perfectly valid. For a significant number of people the game has lost it's replay value with and a because of the design changes that A17 brought. And not, as the silly title you gave this thread implies, because we played too much. Your initial argument, that the game has an increased player count, can also indeed be explained with the reduced difficulty, though, as he admitted himself, stallion did initially not phrase that thought perfectly, you know, the one or two sentences you base your harsh attack on.

 

So yet again, you're using rethorics to refute my criticism. You don't even bother dealing with it. I could lay that out in more detail, but, well, I don't really care anymore. Contrary to your portrayal, I came by after I started a new game in A18, only to find myself with a pistol, 100+ rounds and the unanswered question "ok, what now" after 20 minutes. Came to the forums to see what's going on. Were welcomed by that thread that mirrors my opinion, to have it found ridiculed by the company man. Left a note. It's really no elaborate scheme to stick it to the man, buddy. I am, though, honestly interested in what drives you to do "what you do", I find it kinda weird to come back after months only to see you in the middle of the same old same old.

 

I can also help you out: I really think, and honestly so!, that ppl should just give up this large scale criticism about the game's direction. Like I have. Yes, it's valid, but you're only wasting your time, as it will lead to nothing. I understand the frustration, I was addicted to 7dtd, played it pretty much every day, often for hours. It's sad when you loose a hobby of great significance. But it's kinda like love, better to have loved and lost love, than to have never loved at all, right? Appreciate the good times you had. And there is still some hope, I'm waiting for gold and then we'll see what modding will eventually be able to do. What kind of options the dev will provide, what professional programmers will be able to pull of. Maybe it will bring much of the magic back. Until then, look for something else to fill the void. Myself, for example, I picked up the electric guitar again, now wondering why I had put it down for so many years.

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Every POI now is loaded with loot. After a play through or 2 you know where every loot room is. This last play through I had 2 pistols and over 100 rounds before dark on the 1st day.
The treasure rooms are sooo terrible. I think they're inspired by Skyrim and such, but they simply don't work in 7dtd, because you don't have to go through the "dungeon" to get to them. "Dungeons" are great, but the loot should be distributed along the way. Ideally - and isn't it ironic, that NOW they removed zombie-loot! - as drops from the zombies, so you have leveled loot for when the zombies become stronger.

 

Turning the z's into bullet sponges via difficulty level seems like a cheap way to up difficulty. I would love for headshots to greatly increase damage done with body shots being all but useless. I really miss the days of the center city crawling with deadly z's and loaded with loot. Now its just 1st POI and you are good.
Oh yeah, the hub-city... Mmmhhh.. those were the days. When they had endless spawn, meaning you could never clear the city, the zombies would just keep coming. What an atmosphere that created, like you were in a metropolis overrun by zombies. How great it would be if we had stealth in such an environment.

 

Zombies spawning outside buildings (spawned by the buildings, called the "static spawner") was generally a great mechanic, as you would have to fight your way into the buildings to begin with. It also was a great method to populated towns and cities. Instead of removing the static spawner, they should've just added a few sleepers that pop out of closets and such, not even one in every building, but truly jump scare material. One that would be hard to kill, at least every now and then. That would be so much better.

 

There is so much potential in combining old and new mechanics.. Sad!

 

Edit:

 

Regarding dungeon POIs here is an idea I had a long time ago:

 

Make these dungeon-experiences quests. Make it so that in order to trigger a POI full of zombies, you have to activate a quest with the big yellow mark outside. That will reset the POI, create the sleepers and a sealed box with treasure. Then you have to clear out the whole building, and only if you did, it will unlock the otherwise unbreakable box in the treasure room.

 

Easy. Reasonable. Elegant.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

But I do feel some tweaks need to be made so players can't just run away from combat, make what they need super fast and then re-engage. That new onCombatEntered trigger might be the solution... i'll have to play with it later.

 

Basically i'm thinking something like....

 

<triggered_effect trigger="onCombatEntered" action="AddBuff" buff="buffNoCombatCrafting"/>

 

Then have a buff with say... 2 or 3 second duration that massively increases the craft time, and the buff stacks duration or the like... just as an example. Would be a bit complicated, but do-able. :)

Drastically increase crafting time as soon as the player holds something. Decrease it when their hands are empty. Edited by Kubikus (see edit history)

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