Catering to New Players hurts Replayability for Experienced Players

[KhaineGB]

Drastically increase crafting time as soon as the player holds something. Decrease it when their hands are empty.

 

I don't want a global increase though, because that'd just be frustrating for the player.

 

But I could probably limit the craft increase effect with a HoldingItemHasTags requirement that looks for any kind of weapon while the player is in combat.

[Nyecto]

Every POI now is loaded with loot. After a play through or 2 you know where every loot room is. This last play through I had 2 pistols and over 100 rounds before dark on the 1st day. Turning the z's into bullet sponges via difficulty level seems like a cheap way to up difficulty. I would love for headshots to greatly increase damage done with body shots being all but useless. I really miss the days of the center city crawling with deadly z's and loaded with loot. Now its just 1st POI and you are good.

 

How do you guys get a gun and 100 ammo in less than 30 minutes ? On MP we are struggling to find decent weapons early on and often have to fight with a wooden club first 2 days.

Or maybe ... my friend who manage the server reduced the loot by quite a margin.

 

Oh yeah, the hub-city... Mmmhhh.. those were the days. When they had endless spawn, meaning you could never clear the city, the zombies would just keep coming. What an atmosphere that created, like you were in a metropolis overrun by zombies. How great it would be if we had stealth in such an environment.

 

Zombies spawning outside buildings (spawned by the buildings, called the "static spawner") was generally a great mechanic, as you would have to fight your way into the buildings to begin with. It also was a great method to populated towns and cities. Instead of removing the static spawner, they should've just added a few sleepers that pop out of closets and such, not even one in every building, but truly jump scare material. One that would be hard to kill, at least every now and then. That would be so much better.

 

THAT sounds really good : more z's in cities so not anymore looting building 1 while my friends kill building 2 !!

[Stahl]

Play something else its not rocket science

[stallionsden]

Play something else its not rocket science

 

Ya think... havent played this for ages. Apart from mod fixes changes and prefabbing in the editor...many great games that have replayability and actual challenge and fear and real threats in game... this game is nothing of what it use to be. Not talking bout modding capabilities, prefab editor, new items and blocks either...

[Kage848]

I also think that the game is balanced for 8 zombies at a time.

 

 

 

You can build bases that can handle 64 zombies + demolishers without using exploits but you will have to spend a lot of resources on this type of base.

 

I have a dart trap funnel base that can handle 32 zombies at a time. But it consumes about 90000 iron per horde.

 

For me this is not a problem because I like to spend time in the mine but when you stream or make videos the work in the mine is not very exciting for the viewer.

 

I love watching your videos and the number of zombies during the horde doesn't matter to me.

 

I think the base I'm making now is gonna be sick and very effective.

 

But I'm not so much arguing for myself but others.

[Ornias]

Wedge tips have made base building ultra easy, don't even have to engage anymore on horde night if you don't want to.

[meganoth]

Oh god no. I don't want to see the complicated craft system come back just for that.

 

But I do feel some tweaks need to be made so players can't just run away from combat, make what they need super fast and then re-engage. That new onCombatEntered trigger might be the solution... i'll have to play with it later.

 

Basically i'm thinking something like....

 

<triggered_effect trigger="onCombatEntered" action="AddBuff" buff="buffNoCombatCrafting"/>

 

Then have a buff with say... 2 or 3 second duration that massively increases the craft time, and the buff stacks duration or the like... just as an example. Would be a bit complicated, but do-able.

 

Yes, that buff sounds nice. I would hope such a thing would be implemented low-level into vanilla though. It is save to say xml-buffs use a lot more cpu cycles than anything done in the libraries directly and this buff would be activated quite often. That idea should be posted in the A18 suggestions thread or the dev diary.

 

The difference with the A18 system is you scrap a gun to get parts, then use that to make a new gun. In the earlier alphas (A12 and earlier) you had to find all the gun parts, and then decide if you wanted to save them to make a gun, or destroy them to make a mold, to make many guns.

 

Ok, that is different.

 

As for the cement, I do wonder if that's partially due to how easy it is to just loop around traders until you find the working workstations you need. The blockplaceholders could probably do with some tweaks.

 

Traders, lots of stacks in POIs, easy availability of better tools and workstations, a lot of reasons. I would think small changes in all areas probably would help a lot here.

 

I also think another reason is that the HP difference between upgraded cobblestone and unupgraded concrete is too big leading players to dismiss cobblestone as inadequate.

 

Anecdote about this: I know someone who upgraded some higher-up cobblestone to concrete because he feared cop spit. Cobblestone has a frightfully bad reputation.

[RipClaw]

I also think another reason is that the HP difference between upgraded cobblestone and unupgraded concrete is too big leading players to dismiss cobblestone as inadequate.

 

Anecdote about this: I know someone who upgraded some higher-up cobblestone to concrete because he feared cop spit. Cobblestone has a frightfully bad reputation.

 

Can you blame the players for wanting to play it safe after their bases in Alpha 17 took massive damage due to the zombies' increased block damage?

[meganoth]

Can you blame the players for wanting to play it safe after their bases in Alpha 17 took massive damage due to the zombies' increased block damage?

 

If I have no need to use concrete sparingly I don't need bad experiences to always use the better material.

 

On the other hand my anecdote did end on a "promising" note: After he upgraded so many blocks I had made with cobblestone, our concrete supply did indeed run out before we were finished with the day 21 horde base . And since a 4 player co-op does get lots of (concrete-worthy) glowies and even demos at day 21 it doesn't look as much out of balance as I thought.

 

The problem might be more about multiplayer generally being just so much faster than singleplayer in everything.

[Boidster]

But how is that motivating? What motivates you? I mean, you're really doing all this work for free? On the official forum of a company that makes millions? I still find that hard to believe.

 

I was a volunteer moderator on the forums of a company that MakeS billions. I moderated in their game console forums. It was Xhausting sometimes, but I did it because I was engaged in the community, cared about the product, and wanted to contribute. The desire to be helpful without compensation is a difficult thing for many, many people to understand. You are not alone.

[RipClaw]

If I have no need to use concrete sparingly I don't need bad experiences to always use the better material.

 

But you might want to save it for later base. The first base is often only a temporary solution until you have the material for the final base.

 

There was a change in A18 that you did not consider. In A17 you got ready to use concrete mix from the bags you find in POIs. In A18 it is only cement and you need a working cement mixer, stones and sand to make the concrete mix. For me that sounds like a pretty big nerf.

 

On the other hand my anecdote did end on a "promising" note: After he upgraded so many blocks I had made with cobblestone, our concrete supply did indeed run out before we were finished with the day 21 horde base  . And since a 4 player co-op does get lots of (concrete-worthy) glowies and even demos at day 21 it doesn't look as much out of balance as I thought.

 

That' s the group gamestage. The more players the higher the group gamestage. The 5 players with the highest gamestage are used to calculate the group gamestage. The details can be found in the gamestages.xml file.

 

The problem might be more about multiplayer generally being just so much faster than singleplayer in everything.

 

I think you overestimate the meaning of having concrete to upgrade your base. The concrete does not make you invulnerable. It's a little more durable, but still the zombies can break through in no time thanks to their group bonus. I know that everything used to go a little slower, but there were not the same threats. The hordes in the early game have become much stronger compared to earlier Alphas.

[Roland]

snip

 

To your point that I wasn't speaking to the actual criticism: I usually don't engage people on their direct criticism unless I disagree with it. I don't disagree that the game has become streamlined and that currently the balance is such that for experienced players it is very easy to get going and established. As an experienced player I don't like the middle steps of crafting being removed nor do I like the lighted path inside dungeons. I've stated that myself elsewhere many times which is why I haven't been disagreeing with that aspect of the criticism.

 

What I do disagree with is:

 

1) That for new players the game is too easy and simplistic and becomes boring quickly. Contrary to the picture painted by stallionsden there are people who started in A17 and already have 100's of hours. There are people migrating from the console edition and based on the threads we are getting asking for help it doesn't appear that they are coming from a straight up more complex version to a more simplistic version. Of course, there will be those who get bored of 7 Days to Die very quickly but that has also been true since the beginning.

 

2) That the developers should cater to experienced players who find the game simplistic and easy because they "solved" it long ago.

 

3) That allowing modders to be the ones to complexify and ramp up the challenge from a base vanilla experience that is accessible to a wider range of people is a bad thing.

 

Those are the things I've responded to because I don't agree. But if you need an affirmation from me

 

1) that the game has been made more streamlined and simplistic in some ways and

2) that for experienced players there is no longer any threat of starving, or dehydrating and

3) that the dungeons with their guiding lights are more simplistic than they would be without the clues and

4) that all empty containers are presented as opened and non-interactive blocks which simplifies looting and

5) that crafting in general has lost interesting intermediary steps that made it more of a process rather than a single click event and

6) that there aren't enough outdoor zombies to make exploration threatening for experienced players

 

then here you go: Yep. I agree.

[Laz Man]

Absolutely wrong i am afraid. Not exagerating anything. What the hell does unpredictability got to do with anything.

 

Maybe i dont like the easy ... oh wait i have already stated the issue with the game if you dont want to read and just throw in wong assumptions etc go for it lol... i am correct i stand by my statements.

 

Read the first post on the first page for starters. Nothing to do with blocks items etc. The long timers never got babied we got thrown in to chaos crafting on the run where you had to actually place the ingredients into the correct slot of the crafring grid was difficult. We didnt have assist recipes to know how to make things etc. We learnt it by playing and using our brains.

 

Again repeat i am not saying make it only so only long time players can play. Just remove the challenge and difficulty blockers such as the lamps pointing you which way to go in a dungeon poi.

 

Making zs a threat and scare factor again. Populate the cities on the st more. Plus other chest sheet assit stuff.

 

Most of things you mention are subjective and will vary from player to player and will honestly improve over time. MM, has already acknowledged that the single POI loot rooms probably should be redone (e.g. loot spread out throughout POI). Regarding zombie counts, I wouldnt be surprised if those increased as more optimizations are done as we get closer to gold release.

 

The only thing I dont see coming back is the crafting grid that required many players to look up recipes online.

 

I admit it was fun at first (e.g. trial and error) but dont miss it at all anymore as the novelty wears off over time. Leaving in that old crafting system would of probably left this game forever a niche game and thus no more future updates (e.g. no sales, no additional development), in which we all probably would of stopped playing the game already.

 

Given the game continues to get sales and develop, and continues to be highly configurablr/ moldable (ty tfps), I have been able to enjoy the game much much longer.

 

Big picture, I feel the trade offs / changes has been worth it and most have gotten more out of the game otherwise.

[TWORDY]

I've almost played 7dtd for 650 hours and I can't say that the game is boring. I`d rather take a break from the title instead of making baseless claims that only produce additional sorrows. But with the experience gained, the 7dtd becomes more predictable and repetitive like any other game on the market. It's not a triple-A title (nowadays even those do suck), players hit many hours and game is rising in popularity. I don't find things overly complicated as a fun factor, especially while new players assisting me cleary struggle. Some of the aspects of the game have been simplified, and I take it for a good coin. There are mods to ramp-up difficulty level with other content, or people may simply edit XML files by themselves.

[stallionsden]

I've almost played 7dtd for 650 hours and I can't say that the game is boring. I`d rather take a break from the title instead of making baseless claims that only produce additional sorrows. But with the experience gained, the 7dtd becomes more predictable and repetitive like any other game on the market. It's not a triple-A title (nowadays even those do suck), players hit many hours and game is rising in popularity. I don't find things overly complicated as a fun factor, especially while new players assisting me cleary struggle. Some of the aspects of the game have been simplified, and I take it for a good coin. There are mods to ramp-up difficulty level with other content, or people may simply edit XML files by themselves.

 

You kinda missed what i said so your statement is off by far. But they are not baseless claims and i not the only one saying it.

[Shin]

Thank you shin.

 

Your welcome! I'm just sad that my former favourite game has sold out and got seriously effed up.

[KhaineGB]

I was a volunteer moderator on the forums of a company that MakeS billions. I moderated in their game console forums. It was Xhausting sometimes, but I did it because I was engaged in the community, cared about the product, and wanted to contribute. The desire to be helpful without compensation is a difficult thing for many, many people to understand. You are not alone.

 

Can confirm. I moderate a forum for a larger gaming company, specifically the tech help section.

 

It is so mentally tiring I can't even begin to explain, but I know you'll get it.

[Boidster]

Can confirm. I moderate a forum for a larger gaming company, specifically the tech help section.

 

It is so mentally tiring I can't even begin to explain, but I know you'll get it.

 

Internet fist bump: [Place Fist Here]

 

The most tiresome were the ones who turned rational business decisions into rants ab...

 

I'm just sad that my former favourite game has sold out

 

...oh nevermind here it is.

 

Sold out to whom exactly?

[KhaineGB]

This is my favourite.

 

"Oh my god! You guys are releasing new cosmetic items and can't even fix the game! Stop making art and fix it!"

 

Dude, you do NOT want the art team messing with the code.

[Roland]

Internet fist bump: [Place Fist Here]

 

The most tiresome were the ones who turned rational business decisions into rants ab...

 

 

 

...oh nevermind here it is.

 

Sold out to whom exactly?

 

Sold out as in selling out their integrity for the big $$$$$. Shin feels TFP has abandoned the original soul and vision of the game in order to make more money.

[stallionsden]

Sold out as in selling out their integrity for the big $$$$$. Shin feels TFP has abandoned the original soul and vision of the game in order to make more money.

 

Its true tho the game was made easier to attract more players in which tfp could bring in more money. Was stated many times tfp needed to attract new players and that their game was to hard and by dumbing it down new players will feel more compelled to play the game. But that i understand it is business. But my point is why so far as to make ot past where it needed to be. Tfp could have simply made a new mode before adventurer and called it newbie. then the other difficulty levels continue with where the game was going.

 

Pretty simple to add the game as it is to the newbie mode. And taper the others more difficult and the way it was going.

 

I also remember when people were first complaining bout the games difficulty mm stated he wasnt gonna bow down to making the game easier.

 

But by doing this they contradicted themselves with stating this game needs to cater for everyone.

[Roland]

However Trying to put others down cause your sour isnt a good look nor is diminishing threads with your childishness rather then contribute actual conversation.

 

I'm not sour.

 

I wasn't putting anyone down. I was simply explaining what Shin meant. I didn't even make a statement of agreement or disagreement though I do have a perspective on it. At the top of this very page is a contribution that has nothing childish about it. I mention what I disagree about your position and also what i agree about it. Just scroll up.

[Boidster]

However Trying to put others down cause your sour isnt a good look nor is diminishing threads with your childishness rather then contribute actual conversation.

 

FFS man you gotta hide that stuff under a <spoiler> tag. Do you even know how much a good irony meter costs?!? I bought the last two Costco had and now I'm out. Ugh.

[stallionsden]

I'm not sour.

 

I wasn't putting anyone down. I was simply explaining what Shin meant. I didn't even make a statement of agreement or disagreement though I do have a perspective on it. At the top of this very page is a contribution that has nothing childish about it. I mention what I disagree about your position and also what i agree about it. Just scroll up.

 

Hmm i will remove. Happily admit i misread..

 

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FFS man you gotta hide that stuff under a <spoiler> tag. Do you even know how much a good irony meter costs?!? I bought the last two Costco had and now I'm out. Ugh.

 

I am on my phone

[Kubikus]

To your point that I wasn't speaking to the actual criticism: I usually don't engage people on their direct criticism unless I disagree with it. I don't disagree that the game has become streamlined and that currently the balance is such that for experienced players it is very easy to get going and established. As an experienced player I don't like the middle steps of crafting being removed nor do I like the lighted path inside dungeons. I've stated that myself elsewhere many times which is why I haven't been disagreeing with that aspect of the criticism.

You've adresssed my actual point in your personal message, if you were serious, I'm obviously pleased with that one, but here, you miss the points I made. The thing you ignored in my post was my criticism of your behaviour, while, yes, you also ignored the core of stallions criticism and instead got cought up in one or two sidenotes. Since you seem to agree that that's less than ideal, there's nothing to add from my end.

 

What I do disagree with is:

 

1) That for new players the game is too easy and simplistic and becomes boring quickly. Contrary to the picture painted by stallionsden there are people who started in A17 and already have 100's of hours. There are people migrating from the console edition and based on the threads we are getting asking for help it doesn't appear that they are coming from a straight up more complex version to a more simplistic version. Of course, there will be those who get bored of 7 Days to Die very quickly but that has also been true since the beginning.

 

It's fine to disagree. But do we know how many new players stay for 100's of hours and how many quit bored by the lack of a challenge? It's speculation.

 

2) That the developers should cater to experienced players who find the game simplistic and easy because they "solved" it long ago.

 

3) That allowing modders to be the ones to complexify and ramp up the challenge from a base vanilla experience that is accessible to a wider range of people is a bad thing.

 

I have not seen anybody saying any of this. The boredom doesn't arise because we learned the game, it has risen from the changes in A17. Asking not to dumb the game down is not asking to cater to experienced players, and here comes the point of 1), that a game, that is not challenging, will also turn off new players much sooner, than a more challenging game would.

 

Want to help out new players? Make a proper in-game tutorial. Certainly worth the effort.

 

Finally, I'm sure noone complained that you can mod the game. I guess the point was that you HAVE to mod it to squeeze a challenge out of it. Something completely different.

 

Those are the things I've responded to because I don't agree. But if you need an affirmation from me

 

1) that the game has been made more streamlined and simplistic in some ways and

2) that for experienced players there is no longer any threat of starving, or dehydrating and

3) that the dungeons with their guiding lights are more simplistic than they would be without the clues and

4) that all empty containers are presented as opened and non-interactive blocks which simplifies looting and

5) that crafting in general has lost interesting intermediary steps that made it more of a process rather than a single click event and

6) that there aren't enough outdoor zombies to make exploration threatening for experienced players

 

then here you go: Yep. I agree.

 

It's not necessary to agree. You're allowed to like everything about the current design of the game. But if you attack someone over their criticism, it should be fair to at least deal with what they're actually trying to say. As it otherwise looks like it's your job to hold criticism down by ad homineming critics.

 

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I was a volunteer moderator on the forums of a company that MakeS billions. I moderated in their game console forums. It was Xhausting sometimes, but I did it because I was engaged in the community, cared about the product, and wanted to contribute. The desire to be helpful without compensation is a difficult thing for many, many people to understand. You are not alone.

But actually, helping others is nothing special at all. I'm sure everybody has done it many times.

 

Working for a rich company, following orders, for example, how to deal with the community and such, and all that without compensation is different. But I'm not interested in your motivation (no offense of course, I don't even know who you are), but my old buddy Roland's, who does not really seem to enjoy (parts of) his job (anymore).