Alpha 18 feedback and balancing thread

[madmole]

I suppose this has been something I've noticed in the past runs through the 2nd experimental build: meat quickly becomes over adbundant.

 

I really don't have any ideas on how to cull this without pissing off people but I do kinda miss the feeling of struggle to find food to not starve to death. In my last run, I haven't had food poisioning ever, not sure if you guys changed something about it. Idk, prob something I should just mod myself lol, but I'm on day 18ish and I've got about 5 stacks of meat.

 

I really do think its random and how soon you get a gas powered vehicle and how much you mine. I've had games where I'm swimming in food and others where I wasn't remotely comfortable until day 30 or so, where one barf and I'd be literally unable to fill my stomach completely.

[Jugginator]

Turns it into robocop baby food paste lol.

 

LOL! That sounds too hilarious not to put in the game.

 

I really do think its random and how soon you get a gas powered vehicle and how much you mine. I've had games where I'm swimming in food and others where I wasn't remotely comfortable until day 30 or so, where one barf and I'd be literally unable to fill my stomach completely.

 

Too true, that's fair. I suppose I've gotten lucky, the first EXP I did struggle a bit.

[Troxism]

Counter-point, once your perked up in fortitude you should be doing a good amount of damage with the knuckles. Heck, on the server I play on that has a difficulty of 5/6, facing an irradiated zombie, I have managed to knock them down repeatedly. Then again it could be just that I also am perked 3/5 in flurry or blows along with 3/5 the brawler. Edit: I did have to retreat from an irradiated cop.

 

Sure, but if you perked up clubs/bats to the same level as knuckles, they still work better (at least this was my experience). I'm not saying any of the melee weapons are totally worthless and unusable (any melee weapon works just fine in a 1v1 fight, some just take a lot longer to kill the target), but they really felt lacking in comparison. I did additional testing with all melee weapons/perks maxed after trying them out in my 'real' game and the clubs/bats were consistently the easiest to fight high end zombies with on average, even with all perks for every melee weapon maxed. And as mentioned by another poster, clubs/bats also have great CC making it even easier to fight tougher enemies with them that take many hits to kill.

 

I think what the spear lacks in damage, it gains in reach. I will take the longer reach over the damage any day.

 

I could be wrong about this because frankly it's almost impossible to test melee reach in this game due to how enemies and the player sometimes seem to be able to hit from further then should actually be possible, but my experience with the spear is it felt like it had the exact same reach as any other melee weapon, it just looks like it has more reach. I didn't feel like I could stay out of range of the target any better then with a club. If it did/does indeed have noticeably more reach then I would probably say it's fine.

 

Might get in trouble for this, but Im getting the feeling that zombie wakefulness is a little weak? After I get a little established I dont sneak and use 9mm or shotgun. I can kill in one room and get sleeping Zs in the next. Is this by design or is it going to be tweaked at some point? Reason Im asking is that although I like to play stealth the trade off isnt as massive if the zombies are kind of dozey anyway.

 

I've seen what you describe happen sometimes, but on the other hand there are some sleepers who seem to have location triggers regardless of how stealthy you are being, where once you pass a certain invisible trigger they just activate no matter what. The combination of what you described and what I described definitely does take away a lot of the attraction of stealth perks, which already have the huge problem of doing absolutely nothing for the player on horde nights (which generally are the hardest part anyways unless you cheese them), and in A18 you have so few skill points that 'wasting' points into something that doesn't help you all the time is already a questionable strategy.

[Jugginator]

I could be wrong about this because frankly it's almost impossible to test melee reach in this game due to how enemies and the player sometimes seem to be able to hit from further then should actually be possible, but my experience with the spear is it felt like it had the exact same reach as any other melee weapon, it just looks like it has more reach. I didn't feel like I could stay out of range of the target any better then with a club. If it did/does indeed have noticeably more reach then I would probably say it's fine.

 

 

 

I've seen what you describe happen sometimes, but on the other hand there are some sleepers who seem to have location triggers regardless of how stealthy you are being, where once you pass a certain invisible trigger they just activate no matter what. The combination of what you described and what I described definitely does take away a lot of the attraction of stealth perks, which already have the huge problem of doing absolutely nothing for the player on horde nights (which generally are the hardest part anyways unless you cheese them), and in A18 you have so few skill points that 'wasting' points into something that doesn't help you all the time is already a questionable strategy.

 

I exclusively use the spear until I get a good sledge and have perks, but I still use a spear along with it. It has great reach, hell I use it as a ranged weapon half the time, including throwing it as a pre-strike. I think the hitbox tapers off at range, so you need to be more accurate though. I do say hitboxes are a bit inconsistent, but I don't find ther crazy range people say they run into. I think that's a network lag thing (I don't play online)

[Troxism]

I exclusively use the spear until I get a good sledge and have perks, but I still use a spear along with it. It has great reach, hell I use it as a ranged weapon half the time, including throwing it as a pre-strike. I think the hitbox tapers off at range, so you need to be more accurate though. I do say hitboxes are a bit inconsistent, but I don't find ther crazy range people say they run into. I think that's a network lag thing (I don't play online)

 

I play offline as well, so it's not lag, although it's true the reach issues are worse online due to lag (they aren't as drastic offline as some clips i've seen of online play). As for 'hitboxes', I mean there aren't real hitboxes in this game (at least for weapons) you just need your crosshairs over the zombies head when the swing animation completes. (I know some basic hit detection along the path of the swing was added in A18 but it seems 50/50 if that actually works as advertised, and even if it does it seems to do so little damage it's basically irrelevant in practice, but that is a whole other tangent). Either way back to the point: I think you'd find clubs actually have surprising 'reach' as well. Maybe I needed/need to look harder but it doesn't feel like spears have longer reach by default.

 

I already addressed throwing in my original big post, basically the problem with throwing is it's terrible vs groups/if it doesn't kill the target, which is common on higher difficulties. I don't think it's bad but it's not enough on it's own to redeem the weak basic attack.

[HungryZombie]

I suppose this has been something I've noticed in the past runs through the 2nd experimental build: meat quickly becomes over adbundant.

 

I really don't have any ideas on how to cull this without pissing off people but I do kinda miss the feeling of struggle to find food to not starve to death. In my last run, I haven't had food poisioning ever, not sure if you guys changed something about it. Idk, prob something I should just mod myself lol, but I'm on day 18ish and I've got about 5 stacks of meat.

 

Stop playing in the newb zone - forest. Play like a man in the burnt biome and let me know how much meat you got. =) Just busting chops.

[Gazz]

I've seen what you describe happen sometimes, but on the other hand there are some sleepers who seem to have location triggers regardless of how stealthy you are being, where once you pass a certain invisible trigger they just activate no matter what.

Sleeper hearing ability is simply random. =P

[iamnuff]

Speaking of meat, given that all meat-recipes seem to use five meat each, why not just make each recipe use one meat, but all meat sources give one fifth of the amount that they do now?

 

The inflated number makes it feel like we have lots more resource than we really do.

100 meat is 20 meals, not 100 meals.

[Jugginator]

Stop playing in the newb zone - forest. Play like a man in the burnt biome and let me know how much meat you got. =) Just busting chops.

 

Actually I prefer wasteland or snow biomes haha. I get tired of the 24/7 crackling in the burnt. Honestly after 4 / 6 animal kills you're set for the whole game.

 

@Gazz, I've been playing purely with a shotgun build, and I've changed my mind a little about shotguns, they do well. I still feel like we need another, but one thing I've noticed is the lack of... crowd control? Even with the duckbill mod, the shots don't seem to spread too much. I think a little more spread would be good. Damage is definitely waaay fine lol.

[Troxism]

Speaking of meat, given that all meat-recipes seem to use five meat each, why not just make each recipe use one meat, but all meat sources give one fifth of the amount that they do now?

 

The inflated number makes it feel like we have lots more resource than we really do.

100 meat is 20 meals, not 100 meals.

 

I think in experimental higher ranks of Chef reduce the meat required from 5 down to 1 at 5/5. Also the reason for the 5x to craft with Meat, is the same AFAIK as with Bones, to make it so for example only 1 rank of Huntsman actually has a tangible difference in the total meat/bones from a corpse (if you lower the values by 5x there will be a lot of rounding down with Huntsman causing some levels of that perk to have no effect), as before when corpses gave 1-2 bones, you only saw a difference at rank 5/5 Huntsman. I could be wrong about this however, but this seems to be the intent behind these changes from my observations.

 

 

Sleeper hearing ability is simply random. =P

 

Idk, theres a few locations in some POIs I swear have a location trigger (or if there is no such thing, something is causing it to behave in such a way that I can't distinguish it from one). Even if it is based on hearing ability, it seems like at the very least there are 'zones' in each POI and sleepers can't hear across those zones, because I consistently trigger certain groups while walking on the exact same block into a room, but even if I'm firing a gun or using a chainsaw standing just before that specific line of blocks that seems to trigger them, they never wake up. And this is across multiple clears of the same POI after resetting via quests, it's pretty consistent in some cases. But I'll admit that it's possible my observation isn't perfect, I wasn't specifically testing for this just noticing patterns on average.

[iamnuff]

The spirit and intent of your message is beautiful. However the min maxers will team up and craft end game gear for everyone on the team by day 3, so it has to be limited to looting only, so that online play is a long game just like playing solo is.

 

I play online in a small group, but even with the exp setting turned way up and doing nothing but hunting zombies for exp, we couldn't possibly have a weapon-crafting skill maxed by day three. To say nothing of steel production (which can take multiple weeks to find a crucible and the skillbooks required to make the steel-tier tools/weapons) and a solid supply of other miscellaneous crafting parts like glue, tape and mechanical/electrical junk.

 

I understand that you don't want to make it too easy to beeline to this stuff, but there are so many gates blocking the way already that I really feel like you're grossly overstating how easy it would be.

 

Also, if your only way to stop players from beelining towards something is to make those items completely uncrableable, then it feels like there's a design problem somewhere.

 

There's plenty of middle-ground between 'Trivially easy to create, possible by day three, if you minmax' and 'Game Mechanics literally forbid this. Totally uncraftable'

 

IMO, you're in that middleground already, but if you believe otherwise, then maybe something else could be done.

I dunno, off the top of my head, "crafting a purple-tier variant of an item requires a special resource that you can only get by scrapping other purples."

 

Some sort of 'Epic item-piece' that is in every purple-quality tool or weapon, so if you get a purple AK but you really want a purple shotgun instead, you can sacrifice the AK to use it's special purple part to (alongside all the standard parts required to make a shotgun) to make the weapon you wanted instead.

 

You'd need to set things up so that someone with the skills to craft purple tier... shotguns can still choose to craft blue ones instead.

Otherwise it'd be possible to become so good at making shotguns that you can't make any anymore.

 

That's already kind of a problem though, but shotgun parts or whatever else is stopping you from making a high-quality one wouldn't be as rare as this theoretical purpleolium.

 

So... yeah. something broadly like "Purples are craftable, but only if you sacrifice another purple to make it" with a side-order of "putting perks into crafting skills determines the maximum level of the item you can craft, but you can still choose to make shoddier ones, in case you lack resources'

[Weazelsun]

Idk, theres a few locations in some POIs I swear have a location trigger (or if there is no such thing, something is causing it to behave in such a way that I can't distinguish it from one). Even if it is based on hearing ability, it seems like at the very least there are 'zones' in each POI and sleepers can't hear across those zones, because I consistently trigger certain groups while walking on the exact same block into a room, but even if I'm firing a gun or using a chainsaw standing just before that specific line of blocks that seems to trigger them, they never wake up. And this is across multiple clears of the same POI after resetting via quests, it's pretty consistent in some cases. But I'll admit that it's possible my observation isn't perfect, I wasn't specifically testing for this just noticing patterns on average.

 

I actually noticed this in on the Special Tots POI/ building and same I'm perked up in agility with STEALTH BOOTS. My noise meter was only like 10 or so, when the feral on the stairway woke up and then came down for me.

 

@Gazz, or I guess just that as you say in your post, apparently some sleepers have very good hearing?

[Gazz]

@Gazz, I've been playing purely with a shotgun build, and I've changed my mind a little about shotguns, they do well. I still feel like we need another, but one thing I've noticed is the lack of... crowd control? Even with the duckbill mod, the shots don't seem to spread too much. I think a little more spread would be good. Damage is definitely waaay fine lol.

Shotguns were in a bad place where realism conflicted with gameplay.

Realism lost.

A full overhaul went in today, limiting basic shell range to 10m. That opened up a lot of wiggle room for making them good in that range...

[iamnuff]

The zombies hiding in the wardrobes seem scripted to leap out when you go past, regardless of how much/little noise you make.

 

I've fired a shotgun a foot away from them in full heavy armour while not crouched, and they haven't woken up until i've taken that couple of extra steps to put me in range if their attack.

 

Other times I've snuck past on a full stealth build with zombies not waking up even as I mechete their heads off with sneak attacks, but zeds consistently leap out of cupboards to jump-scare me.

 

As for melee weapons, I like the spear. It's damage is... kinda crap, tbh, but the thrown attack seems to be a near guarrenteed knockdown, which is nice.

 

Slam a zombie in the chest with it, knock them to the ground then pull the spear back out and stab them on the floor.

 

Spears can be tossed through bars too, so I want to do a day-7 defence where the team has nothing to defend with but a wall to stand on and a bunch of chests of spears to throw over/through it.

 

Show em how we do it Zulu-warrior style.

[Jugginator]

Shotguns were in a bad place where realism conflicted with gameplay.

Realism lost.

A full overhaul went in today, limiting basic shell range to 10m. That opened up a lot of wiggle room for making them good in that range...

 

Ooo nice that's good to hear. Yeah limiting the range is definitely good to trade for a wider spread that does crowd control. Can't wait to check that out

[JCrook1028]

My ego is irrelevant for the game as i am not being paid to be the representative of the effort put into a game by a whole team, i dont have a position of responsability neither my job is as important as to objectively analyse feedback to improve the game.

 

You are not seriously suggesting that having every player in 7 days to die buy a UPC battery backup makes more sense than coding the game to make a back up file, are you?? (as 90% of the offline games in many genres do, civilization V, subnautica, oxygen not included, etc etc etc ) you forget the game is in alpha state, it can and should be improved upon not only in the content part but also in the technical aspects, if a situation like this arises how is blaming me, calling me a whiner, and telling me to look for solutions an improvement for the game?? how is that a professional attitude? i can understand that type of behaviour from other community members not from a game's representative.

 

that said my point has been made and i hope for the sake of other people with the same problem that they improve upon this, i wont be here to see it but i hope it helps other people not quiting this nice game that gave me so much fun.

 

If your town has crappy power as you say it does then Yes, you need a UPS. Not only for the game, that's a minor thing, but for your actual data files and your hardware itself.

[Gareee]

I really do think its random and how soon you get a gas powered vehicle and how much you mine. I've had games where I'm swimming in food and others where I wasn't remotely comfortable until day 30 or so, where one barf and I'd be literally unable to fill my stomach completely.

 

Thing is, meat alone doesn't give you great quality food... You need to combine it with other ingredients for the better recipes. I find meat a early game stop gap if I don't have canned food.

[vonstorm]

Sleeper hearing ability is simply random. =P

 

So adjusting noise output (stealthy = quieter / Gun = louder) could bring this into line?

[Jay_ombie]

Sleeper hearing ability is simply random. =P

 

Ahhh I always wondered how it worked, as many a time I would shoot a zombie and the ones next to it wouldn't wake up. Yet I hit a block and the whole house comes down on me... ><

[Gothyc]

Speaking of meat, given that all meat-recipes seem to use five meat each, why not just make each recipe use one meat, but all meat sources give one fifth of the amount that they do now?

 

The inflated number makes it feel like we have lots more resource than we really do.

100 meat is 20 meals, not 100 meals.

 

I think it's quite good that they multiplied both harvests and recipe costs for meat by 5. It gives them the ability to put in perks like Master Chef 2, which makes a recipe cost 4 instead of 5. Huntsman perk shows a difference in harvest yield, instead of being rounded down into nothing (as is still pretty much the case with rotten flesh).

 

So no, please don't change meat harvests/recipes back down to 1.

[betam4x]

Not really a fan of how Alpha 18.1 is shaping up. Specifically:

 

* Mechanical parts and springs are not craftable

 

These could/should be locked behind a perk or schematic, but not removed altogether (along with many other items). It's already annoying enough to have to hunt down steel tool parts and the like. I personally *want* a crafting system. I don't want to have to loot everything. I don't mind having to spend skill points to do it. IMO EVERYTHING should be craftable with the right perk, and everything should be unlockable with SPs. Yes some of the stuff should be gated off to end game (maybe you have to pump 10 points into a rifle skill to craft rifle parts + 5 points into a steel skill to craft Mechanical parts).

 

That's why I miss the mold concept of older alphas. Maybe molds can be reinvented for alpha 19? Making your own guns IS a thing IRL. Hell, someone even figured out how to do it with a 3D printer (though it's been done using older tech for a long time).

 

Maybe in addition to the workbench, have a "press" that takes molds. Install a mold and make parts of that type with the appropriate metals.

 

Another issue is playing with enemy spawning off is starting to become REALLY unbalanced. The loot changes have helped, but many of the animals that have been added in recent alphas are considered enemies and don't spawn. Boars, wolves and other animals IMO should spawn. Only zombies and vultures should be turned off. Maybe add a toggle for each? Sometimes I'm not in the mood to deal with a zombie threat, and would rather just explore the world and survive.

 

Alpha 18 was a step in the right direction, but please don't reverse course.

[Gazz]

So adjusting noise output (stealthy = quieter / Gun = louder) could bring this into line?

Sure. It all depends on what kind of balance you are aiming for.

[Vintorez]

Wonder if it could be possible to use weapon/armor/tool parts to reforge matching T6 items, rerolling the stats on them. Since you can't craft T6 it could make them arguably even more valuable once you do have a T6 of that item if the required amount was high enough. Would also be nice if there was an in game way to reference the base stats of an item to better tell what stats are higher or lower and by how much.

[Jay_ombie]

Casual player here, I have a level 4 green Sledge hammer with mods. I have perked into stamina/hammer related tree's and can smash most zombies with one primary hit. I can annihilate anything in front of me (up to now) with secondary hit.

 

Why would I need anything higher and what would the benefits be exactly to pursue/craft better ?

[Freshzombie]

Casual player here, I have a level 4 green Sledge hammer with mods. I have perked into stamina/hammer related tree's and can smash most zombies with one primary hit. I can annihilate anything in front of me (up to now) with secondary hit.

 

Why would I need anything higher and what would the benefits be exactly to pursue/craft better ?

 

If you are playing on the default difficulty(2/6) and im not mistaken. Zombies do less damage to you, and they take extra damage from you.

You can boost up the difficulty to normad or warrior, and see how the game goes. (Also depends on your game stage and character level)

Feral radiated zombies will be very hard to kill without some sorts of firearm