Alpha 18 feedback and balancing thread

[Darkest Night]

[quote name=

wordwaster]^this. We have hundreds of 9mm bullets and nothing to use them with. I was starting to think it was a bug but a search turned up no other complaints.

 

It seems a bit much, even for rng. 3 of us haven’t found ONE pistol in 10 hours

 

Try focusing on toilets. I get a ton of 9mm pistols from toilets.

[madmole]

Actually, he is only lucky if he was looking for those things. If you were dying of thirst in the Desert and you come across 50 tons of Gold and platinum while searching for water, you are not lucky, you are dying due to lack of water.

 

That being said, RNG is RNG.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

I had to register just to reply to this, I have been around these forums a very long time.

 

Sorry Madmole, I have to agree with him wholeheartedly. The way things are in Alpha 18 already prevent your scenario from happening. If I remember right, it took 15-17 parts to make a single L6 item. So for a team of 4, this would take 60+ parts per character slot to craft a single L6 item for all 4. Considering I was having a difficult time getting my crafted L6's to match or exceed the L3 or L4 looted items I already had, it is very unlikely that min maxed character will be able to get access to that many parts and that he will magically craft top tier L6 items on his first try.

 

As it stands now, there is one overriding skill that breaks 7DTD, Lucky Looter. Add in glasses and it is even further out of whack. With this skill maxed, I get T6 items routinely. The way it is now, your min maxed character specializing in looting will easily be able to supply a team of friends with top tier items much sooner than a TEAM of min maxed crafters that have specialized in the different items. This is what I feel is broken. A TEAM, working together, can easily be outperformed by a single player specialized in looting.

 

Making 7DTD a loot the best game leads to breaking the game sooner, period. As a quick example, look to Znation. By focusing on looting garages, he had a Motorcycle on day 3. If he had to craft the motorcycle from scratch, he would have had to either loot the schematics for frame, accessories, motor, engine, steel, parts etc... or Specialize in Grease Monkey and get Int to 6, GM to 3 and still loot all the parts above or also get the ability to make steel and loot most of the parts above. And this is just to be able to make a motorcycle. To craft other end game items would take a plethora of skill points to get their respective skills maxed as well as lots of looting for parts etc... I think it is easy to see that Looting is the fast way to end game items and equipment and not crafting. Your logic seems to be flawed.

 

I am stating the above with all due respect, you have made an amazing game that just keeps getting better. Sure, there have been a few missteps along the way but the end result is still amazing. I just feel that this is one of those mis-steps.

As I've said its simply balance. I don't think any fundamental designs need changed too much. We are rebalancing loot so that even with lucky looter it won't ever be raining purples, no matter what level you are. I want to introduce a "loot quality slider" which delays/increases how fast the better loot and legendary get exposed to the drop list. It happens too fast IMO, you shouldn't even sniff at low probability purples until level 75. At level 100 it gets a small increase, etc. The slider can push that down to level 25, or up to 200. 25 would be for kids or people playing on nightmare/insane, hordes every night.

[madmole]

Try focusing on toilets. I get a ton of 9mm pistols from toilets.

 

I loot every toilet in the game, and never have to worry about having enough jars and murky water, and the rare pistol helps build my smg turret parts supply.

[Pockets1974]

Are you ♥♥♥♥ing serious? are you rly telling me to back up my files every day i play the game???

Out of your control??? is out of your control to make the game create a saved file every ingame midnight??

Are you rly so short of sight as to assume ♥♥♥♥ i have never said?? this town has electric problems whenever there is strong winds, so should i go complain to the electric company because your incapability of putting your ego aside and analyse feeback in a objective manner to improve your game???

I seriously cant believe you are working with the professionals who made this nice game possible.

 

So...I live in an area where my power is iffy at times. I have a battery backup for that very reason. If my power goes out, I have about 30 to 45 minutes to finish whatever i'm doing and shut my computer down to avoid damage. Problem solved, and no bitching on a public forum either... crazy huh?

[Laz Man]

Actually, he is only lucky if he was looking for those things. If you were dying of thirst in the Desert and you come across 50 tons of Gold and platinum while searching for water, you are not lucky, you are dying due to lack of water.

 

That being said, RNG is RNG.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

I had to register just to reply to this, I have been around these forums a very long time.

 

Sorry Madmole, I have to agree with him wholeheartedly. The way things are in Alpha 18 already prevent your scenario from happening. If I remember right, it took 15-17 parts to make a single L6 item. So for a team of 4, this would take 60+ parts per character slot to craft a single L6 item for all 4. Considering I was having a difficult time getting my crafted L6's to match or exceed the L3 or L4 looted items I already had, it is very unlikely that min maxed character will be able to get access to that many parts and that he will magically craft top tier L6 items on his first try.

 

As it stands now, there is one overriding skill that breaks 7DTD, Lucky Looter. Add in glasses and it is even further out of whack. With this skill maxed, I get T6 items routinely. The way it is now, your min maxed character specializing in looting will easily be able to supply a team of friends with top tier items much sooner than a TEAM of min maxed crafters that have specialized in the different items. This is what I feel is broken. A TEAM, working together, can easily be outperformed by a single player specialized in looting.

 

Making 7DTD a loot the best game leads to breaking the game sooner, period. As a quick example, look to Znation. By focusing on looting garages, he had a Motorcycle on day 3. If he had to craft the motorcycle from scratch, he would have had to either loot the schematics for frame, accessories, motor, engine, steel, parts etc... or Specialize in Grease Monkey and get Int to 6, GM to 3 and still loot all the parts above or also get the ability to make steel and loot most of the parts above. And this is just to be able to make a motorcycle. To craft other end game items would take a plethora of skill points to get their respective skills maxed as well as lots of looting for parts etc... I think it is easy to see that Looting is the fast way to end game items and equipment and not crafting. Your logic seems to be flawed.

 

I am stating the above with all due respect, you have made an amazing game that just keeps getting better. Sure, there have been a few missteps along the way but the end result is still amazing. I just feel that this is one of those mis-steps.

 

The more I think about it, what crafting probably needs to make it feel more worthwhile is to allow t6 crafts but only when perked high enough AND a unique crafting material that is dropped from a high tier event. Maybe only fetch AND Clear T5 quests. This will only work if the appearance of higher tier quality items is further reduced. If I had time to mod, I'd create something that looks like this.

 

-Keep existing gun/tool part crafting (up to t5) but reduce quality drops further so those crafts are more relavant

-Add a unique crafting Material (for t6 crafts only) for each weapon/armor type (and one for tools). Or, create one unique material type for item type (e.g. melee weapons, armor, and tools) (which ever feels better)

-Make this unique crafting material only a reward from t5 fetch/clear or clear quests.

-add t6 recipes that require quantity x 2 of these mats to limit easy farming or limit the frequency of these quest types (whichever feels better)

[Blake_]

I loot every toilet in the game, and never have to worry about having enough jars and murky water, and the rare pistol helps build my smg turret parts supply.

 

Greatest pick up line ever.

[Laz Man]

I loot every toilet in the game, and never have to worry about having enough jars and murky water, and the rare pistol helps build my smg turret parts supply.

 

I hate to say it but I think murky water stacks are OP, I think they stack up to 125? I remember hitting up the toilet store and having enough murky water to last me weeks. At that frequency I dont even bother picking up empty bottles or regular water which stacks only up to 10.

 

Edit: nice to meet another fellow toilet whore. *fist pump* lol

[Thecolours]

Its fine, we're planning more loot changes so whatever it is now isn't relevant.

 

Those changes coming in A18 or A19?

[JCrook1028]

@MM: Any plans to implement a favourite system in the backback/inventory? I'm really missing the possibilty to right click my AK, Med Kit, 7.62 - give them a star for favourite and then have the ability after a long loot session in the city to go into a deposite create and f. ex hold shift+R to deposite everything that's not set as a favourite.

 

Would really make my day :-)

 

It's already in vanilla code but not enabled yet. There a modlet that enables it.

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?127758-Backpack-Buttons-A18!-(Stash-All-Stash-Stack-Stash-Stack-Smart)

[JCrook1028]

are you stupid or you hit your head when your were a kid?, you go around assuming ♥♥♥♥ when i never said it was my pc that lost power, use what is left of your brain a little bit and realise that this post was moved to feedback by a moderator for a reason, i am glad is not someone like you who is developing this game.

 

Um....your PC IS losing power if it is shutting off due to no power...... get a UPS then your town's ♥♥♥♥ty power system isn't going to mess up your game, or more important things on your PC. You can get a cheap one that will give you 5-6 minutes for less than $30.

[agrastiOs]

You are the one with the problem of flaky power. Sure we could write an incremental save game system but we're in alpha so how hard is it for you to understand that its a low priority 1 in 10 million edge cases of losing power while playing the game, when a save happens to be writing, which is the only way it could get corrupted. Its your issue, so I am telling you to make a shortcut to your save folder and make a backup periodically. This is a computer basic, I'm sure a master of pirating can figure out how to create a backup folder.

 

We have to stay focused on completing the game, not wasting engineering effort on 1 in 10 million edge cases that can be prevented with basic windows copy/paste functions.

 

It would be nice if game made some .baks in the saves directory, like many video games do. I don't think an incremental save system is needed, just that. But this is only for around gold, there's more important things to do, like you said .

[Chairkicker]

Its highly possible the formula for MP game stage is too aggressive. I think it just adds up your gs, so 6 level 30 guys is like one level 180 guy which is extreme late game. I'll visit with the guys on the actual formula. One man's too hard is another man's too easy.

 

Maybe you could tie game stage addition to game difficulty, or give us a separate "Game stage multiplier" option that controls how fast it ramps up and how much each extra player contributes to the total gamestage. Perhaps you could give game stage some geographic properties so that gamestage from each player is only added when they're in close proximity?

 

As I've said its simply balance. I don't think any fundamental designs need changed too much. We are rebalancing loot so that even with lucky looter it won't ever be raining purples, no matter what level you are. I want to introduce a "loot quality slider" which delays/increases how fast the better loot and legendary get exposed to the drop list. It happens too fast IMO, you shouldn't even sniff at low probability purples until level 75. At level 100 it gets a small increase, etc. The slider can push that down to level 25, or up to 200. 25 would be for kids or people playing on nightmare/insane, hordes every night.

 

This would be lovely because I find that 50% loot multiplier is excellent for emphasizing the survival aspect of the game. At 100%, or even 75% I'm always swimming in everything I ever need, especially food. I sure would love if we could have specific loot multipliers for categories of items.

 

The only problem is that at 50%, you get a lot of special containers (shipping crates, locked crates, safes, etc..) that are totally empty. I don't suppose you could make a change so that those containers always have a reward even at 25% multiplier? Just scaling it down so you at least get a single gun part, a few bullets, some food, raw materials, etc..

[Laz Man]

Its highly possible the formula for MP game stage is too aggressive. I think it just adds up your gs, so 6 level 30 guys is like one level 180 guy which is extreme late game. I'll visit with the guys on the actual formula. One man's too hard is another man's too easy.

 

Hi MM. I could have swore that you said the game would take the person with the highest GS for the calculation, unless I dreamt that or that was in regards to loot only. 😂

[Jay_ombie]

I hate to say it but I think murky water stacks are OP, I think they stack up to 125? I remember hitting up the toilet store and having enough murky water to last me weeks. At that frequency I dont even bother picking up empty bottles or regular water which stacks only up to 10.

 

Edit: nice to meet another fellow toilet whore. *fist pump* lol

 

 

 

I am not sure we even need toilet water (not in every toilet maybe) with lakes etc you can fill up stacks of jars its never a problem now.

 

 

Also may I ask MM regarding zombies ie SPIDER zombies and Dogs, can they be set to be able to enter and go through one block spaces and even jump between two blocks as I am seeing many a base with big wide gaps and these zombies at least should be getting through with ease but cant due to block detection I guess.

[falloutcloud]

How many times do I have to explain this?

 

Look didn't mean to get you triggered there. The way I'm seeing it is that fortitude has Iron Gut which increases buff duration and reduces chance of debuff, Regeneration, and Heavy Armor. Seems a bit OP. You wanted feedback and I'm giving it.

[Troxism]

For some context to this feedback: I've played in Alpha 18 till Day 53, Lvl 76, on Survivalist/24 zombies/Jog during day sprint at night, with a mostly Handguns/Agility based character, although I dabbled quite a bit in other trees too.

 

Some feedback on weapon balancing:

 

Melee Weapons:

 

To be blunt (har har) Bats/Sledgehammers seem to be way way way better then all the other melee weapon types. Knives especially are just godawful.

 

First of all, just comparing all the melee weapons at equal perk/stat point/quality levels, the bat/sledge end up playing better because fast weak hits don't work well in this game (you generally dip in and out of range to land hits, not stay in and facetank), and bats/sledges are the hardest 'single hit' melee weapons, so they mesh well with the way you melee in this game, at least if you don't want to get hit.

 

Also, in singleplayer, you pretty much HAVE to invest at least a few points in strength for mining, which means clubs/bats tend to be ahead of the stat curve early on.

 

It doesn't help that bats also have their own line of magazines for unique perks while other melee weapons lack an equivalent.

 

As for the problems with the other melee weapons:

 

Knives: These are just terrible, because again, fast weak hits don't fit this game's 'melee style'. I assume the bleeds are supposed to make up for it (ie you are intended to weave in and out and bleed up all the zombies), but frankly in practice they just don't do enough damage. This may be because I play on Survivalist (I'm not sure how the bleeds feel on lower difficulties), but even with a Rad Remover installed, trying to kill a radiated zombie with a machete, even with 5/5 ranks in it, is just painful (it just takes forever to bleed them, and the actual attack damage of the machete is awful), while a baseball bat can kill weaker irradiated in just 3 headshot swings even on Survivalist.

 

The Hunting Knife is even worse then the Machete since it is much weaker and faster, which only makes all the issues worse. I tried using a Hunting Knife in the early game and it was just completely unusable, I ended up either taking a lot of damage trying to land fast hits or running around forever waiting for them to drop dead when I could have already killed them a long time ago with a club. Ironically however, the rapid speed of the Knife does make it REALLY good for lawn mowing/breaking paintings, which is kinda nice.

 

Knuckles: Pretty much the same issues as Knives, except you can't even bleed targets, but with the caveat that Beer does buff them to be fairly decent, so in theory if you set up a massive beer farm and have 100% uptime on the buff I could see these actually being viable. This seems to be the intent as well, since Fortitude includes the farming perk, but frankly getting a huge beer farm takes time, and by the time you have it up, melee is much less important anyways. Still, this is probably the 3rd best melee weapon after clubs/sledges.

 

Stun Batons: Just a low damage club with a 'stun' that doesn't actually stun on occassion. Also you need to loot one, and it's tied to a relatively otherwise weak for combat attribute (Int, which also has turrets which basically aren't actually good until very high int lvls) which doesn't help.

 

Spears: Again just really low basic damage, and the throw isn't powerful enough to compensate for the time it takes to recover the weapon if you miss/if you are fighting a group. I could see the spear being effective on lower difficulties where the throw would 1 shot targets, but not on higher difficulties.

 

While I assume it's not necessarily intended all melee weapons are perfectly equal, currently the gaps are pretty huge. I can't even imagine trying to use Knives seriously currently, and while Spears/Batons aren't THAT bad, the only reason you would use them is if you had a lot of points in them anyways.

 

Not sure if ideas are desired, but I'd probably start by buffing bleeds, and improving the stun on the baton somehow (either proc more often, or be a 'full' stun, or making the stun do a bunch of damage over it's duration), and possibly buffing the spear throw damage a bit more to compensate for the drawbacks. I like the idea of different melee weapons being unique, so playing up the unique aspects would be the logical place to start rather then just blanket damage buffs.

 

 

Bows/Crossbows:

 

These are just awful in the current version. While I assume the intent was to move away from them being 'forced' as an early game ranged weapon, and more of something you specialise in if you go Agility, the problem is they have been indirectly nerfed in many ways, and still have all their old weaknesses, while guns have lost a lot of their old weaknesses. I really don't see why you would use them, outside of maybe Exploding Arrows/Bolts.

 

First of all, the primitive bow is very weak, and you now need Bow Parts to make better bows/crossbows. The problem is, that this is the same as the way guns work ATM, yet Bows/Crossbows still have terrible DPS compared to guns, so it doesn't make sense to have the same amount of hassle associated with them when they aren't as good as the guns. It doesn't help that the bows/crossbows seem a lot rarer then guns in loot so it's hard to get enough parts early on. And brass is ridiculously abundant now (I'll talk more about this later), so the old reason to use a bow/crossbow, to save brass, is no longer relevant.

 

Steel/Fire/Exploding arrows/bolts need Polymer now too, so they are harder to make, which is pretty annoying. Again brass is more common then polymer, yet bows/crossbows are weaker then guns. It just doesn't make much sense.

 

On top of this, Crossbows are REALLY bad if you don't get Run and Gun, due to the constant reloading required, on top of the Archery perk. Further adding to the investment required. But even if you do bother, you end up with a weapon that is still worse then a gun. It feels like by the time you can get enough levels of Archery/Run and Gun to make Bows/Crossbows feel good to use, you are already facing Irradiated zombies, and Guns are just easier to use against those.

 

It REALLY doesn't help that Bows/Crossbows share attribute with Handguns, and the Pistol is easily the most common gun, and 9mm ammo is common and very cheap to make, meaning in practice even if you were going into Agility it would be much easier to just go straight to the Pistol.

 

Not sure how I would go about changing it, but probably at least start by trying to improve 'accessibility' for bows/crossbows. Make them less reliant on perks, make the parts much more common, make arrows easier to make, something like that. Their whole point has always been that they are weaker then guns but easier to get started with, and with all the changes in Alpha 17 and now in Alpha 18, I feel like that niche has been massively eroded with all the added hassle to use bows/crossbows, while guns have been made more accessible at the same time.

[Troxism]

Some feedback on my observations. For some context, I played up to lvl 76/Day 52 so far, Survivalist/24 Blood Moon Zombies/Jog during day sprint at night, with a mostly Agility/Handguns character but dabbling a lot on various trees.

 

Melee Weapon Balance:

 

Clubs/Bats/Sledgehammers seem to be way better then other melee weapon types. This game generally favours dipping in and out with big single hits for melee, esp on higher difficulties where you can't really tank hits even with armour, and these are the best weapons for doing so. It doesn't help that the bats get their own magazine perks while other melee weapons lack anything similar, and that you have to invest in strength for mining anyways for single player.

 

 

Knives:

 

I assume the intent is you are supposed to bleed targets with Knives and then kite them around, however this ends up taking forever on higher difficulties, and the rapid attack speed of knives just isn't useful for anything but lawn mowing (which it is great for). Even with maxed perks, I can bleed up an enemy with a Knife, and run around for a while or I can just kill it in 1-3 hits with a bat (even some of the irradiated zombies die in 3 bat headshots). Just doesn't seem to make sense. Not sure if suggestions are wanted, but buffing the bleeds would be a start. At least make them do damage faster but maybe last less time.

 

Stun Batons:

 

Just low damage clubs with a 'stun' that isn't even a real stun. Doesn't help that it can be hard to find one early on if you are trying to go down that path. A buff to the stun of some kind would make sense, either make it do a bunch of damage over the duration, proc more often, or be a 'real' full stun.

 

Knuckles:

 

Same problem as knives with being fast but weak, which doesn't mesh well with melee combat in this game. They do have the saving grace that Fortitude has the farming perks, and Beer buffs knuckles, so I could see them being effective with 100% Beer uptime, but I feel like even if that is the point, maybe nerfing beer and buffing the base damage of knuckles would still make sense.

 

Spears:

 

The basic attack is weak and the throw doesn't do enough damage to make up for having to retrieve the weapon, esp if fighting a group. Admitedly the spear throw is probably a lot better on lower difficulties where it is more likely to 1 shot the target, but the baseball bat/sledge are also more likely to 1 shot targets on those difficulties. Basically the spear throw just doesn't do enough extra damage over a power attack from a bat to make up for the drawbacks IMHO, and should probably do more damage.

 

Bows/Crossbows:

 

In Alpha 17, and even more now in Alpha 18, Guns/Brass/Casings have become more common, which has eroded the old role of the Bow/Crossbow as a 'budget' ranged weapon. By itself this wouldn't be so bad, but now bows/crossbows require parts to make good ones (the primitive bow is awful), which seem even less common then gun parts, and really hinder the early game usefulness of bows/crossbows.

 

On top of this, Crossbows pretty much require perking Archery AND Run and Gun to max just to deal with the reload time/speed penalty, which makes them feel like a huge investment, and by the time you get there, you are fighting irradiated zombies, which are 10x easier to fight with a gun then a crossbow or bow, even with a rad remover mod, which makes you feel like you should have just put the points into guns instead.

 

Doesn't help that Bows/Crossbows share attribute with Handguns, and the Pistol/9mm ammo are ubiquitous, and the Pistol in general is a really solid end-game viable gun as it is. I was actually planning on going Bows early game, but found it was easier to get a Pistol/9mm then having to get Bow parts and gather the now rare feathers/polymers for steel arrows. And the Pistol was obviously way stronger overall then a Bow or Crossbow.

[Troxism]

Cont/More Feedback on various balancing:

 

Guns:

 

I don't think balance between the main gun categories (Rifles, Shotguns, Handguns, Automatics) is overall bad, but some of the categories have internal balance issues.

 

Probably the most glaring thing is that currently there are T2 and T3 weapons in each type, and in some cases the T2 weapons are terrible and the T3 are a huge upgrade, while in others the T2 weapons are arguably as good or better then the T3 weapons.

 

Specifically, compare for example the Hunting Rifle to the Marksman Rifle. The Marksman Rifle does SLIGHTLY less damage per shot but is way better in every other way, to the point where nobody would choose to use an equal quality Hunting Rifle over a Marksman Rifle. Double Barrel Shotgun vs Pump Shotgun is much the same, with the Pump Shotgun being a clear upgrade overall.

 

Now this isn't a problem by itself, but compare this to the AK vs M60 and Pistol vs SMG (Magnum is kind of apples to oranges in that tree). The M60 does very slightly more damage per shot then the AK (but it's a tiny difference, and since the AK is more common you are more likely to have a higher quality AK then M60, so in practice it tends to be the other way around), and has better recoil control on full auto fire (the AK's accuracy becomes very bad very quickly on full auto, even with recoil/handling improving mods), but has the drawbacks of not being able to accept sights/scopes. So in some cases the AK is better, as it's pretty much the best sniping weapon next to rifles, and even on full auto, it is just as effective as the M60 if used at closer ranges. Having said that I don't think the AK vs M60 balance is bad, as both have their niches. But it's quite a contrast to the Hunting Rifle vs Marksman Rifle or Double Barrel vs Pump Shotgun comparison, where one is clearly better.

 

The Pistol vs SMG is even worse, to the point where I feel the SMG needs a buff to compete with the Pistol. The Pistol is actually an amazing endgame viable weapon now between having stronger ammo types to help it's damage, and brass being absurdly common now , which was always the #1 issue with the 9mm weapons, ie them being brass inefficient. Comparing it to the SMG, the SMG gains full auto fire, but frankly full auto is done much better by the Automatics (which makes sense, but the point is if you wanted to full auto fire you wouldn't be going in the Handgun tree anyways), and is generally a terrible idea in this game anyways. They are both very accurate in hipfire for getting pot-headshots, but the Pistol does more damage so it's actually better in this role.

 

The SMG has a bigger magazine and takes drum mods as well, but the Pistol has such a fast reload animation it barely even matters. The SMG also has a bit more range, but generally you engage at short ranges in this game, and if you do want to snipe, the SMG still doesn't have enough range for that, and the Rifles/AK are WAY better at that job. Or even the Magnum in the same perk tree is arguably a better sniping weapon since you want higher single shot damage for sniping.

 

It doesn't help that the SMG feels like the rarest gun in loot, at lvl 76 I haven't even found one above Q3 while I have Q6 of almost every other gun.

 

I'll admit the SMG is probably a bit better on lower difficulty as the lower damage matters less, and full auto works better on lower difficulties where it doesn't take 10 9mm head shots to kill an Irradiated Biker, but it shouldn't be so questionable/such a tossup between it and the Pistol IMHO. I realise part of the issue is just that the Pistol is really good already, but I think there is room to buff the SMG without breaking overall weapon balance.

 

I think it would make sense to buff the SMG to do the same damage as the Pistol, or at least reduce the penalty to something less. Then it would be a pretty clear upgrade, but still wouldn't overshadow other T3 weapons.

 

Even beyond just theorycraft, I've found in practice the Pistol just works better then the SMG even on Horde Nights, which I generally do exclusively with the Pistol + traps, with maybe a bit of Magnum tossed in.

 

Again, I do understand the SMG is better on full auto then a Pistol, but frankly even on Horde Night going full auto is silly, as it's better to take rapid single shot head shots (esp great with penetrating ammo for double headshots), which isn't too hard with the right layout/trap setup to consistently land headshots. Full auto just ends up wasting tons of ammo in those cases for not much better overall DPS. And a small damage buff to the SMG would hardly make it eclipse the role of the 'real' automatic weapons.

 

Armour Crafting/Parts:

 

Generally I don't mind the part system, except for a few cases, Bows/Crossbows (talked about it before), and Armour. The problem is that with Armour Crafting, it costs the same amount of parts to craft 1 piece of armour as for example a single tool or weapon (well depends on the specific item, some weapons cost 15 some 12 at Q5), yet you need to craft 5 pieces of armour. And with the random stats on armour being even more important (since every point of armour is worth more then the last one), it really hurts when you gather up 60 parts to craft a full set of Q5 armour and it ends up being all low rolled on armour rating.

 

Why armour rolls are important: Take military armour. It rolls from 9 to 12 armour rating. If you put +2 Armour plate mods in each item, the difference between full sets of bottom vs top roll is 55 armour vs 70 armour total. Armour seems to just work as a straight % reduction from my testing, so this is the difference between taking 45% damage and 30%, or a 33% damage reduction with the better set over the weaker set.

 

So between the RNG of armour rating and the fact that you need to craft sets of 5, I think the parts system needs to be tweaked for armour crafting so it's of similar difficulty to craft armour vs weapons.

 

I would suggest lowering the scaling/base amount of parts needed to craft armour per piece, not all the way down, but maybe by 20-40%, because it doesn't feel like armour parts/armour you can scrap for parts are significantly more common then gun/tool parts, yet you need 5x more of them.

 

 

Misc Things

 

Not a huge fan of how it feels like the main 'alternative' to learning schematics via the Int tree, ie buying schematics/buying vehicles/buying a crucible, also somewhat relies on the Int tree because bartering is an Int perk. Quests are also an Int perk, and if you don't have Bartering are the best way to make money. This isn't really a major issue, and it's hardly 'broken' by any means, but it just feels odd that the alternative to the Int tree is easier to pull off, well, if you go into the Int tree anyways. Not sure what can really be done here, or if even anything should be done.

 

I find it odd how looting exp scales with level, and so drastically as well. You get like 1-10 exp per looting action at low levels, but at higher levels it goes up to 200, or even 300 xp per looting action. Looting exp goes from completely negligible to one of the better ways to gain exp later in the game. I realise things like killing/mining exp already scale naturally due to being able to kill/mine faster later in the game, and looting needs something similar to keep up, but the current scaling seems off, it should have a higher base and a lower scaling so that looting exp is meaningful early in the game but so that you don't get more exp looting containers in a POI then killing the zombies in it late game. Note that I realise this isn't an Alpha 18 change, it was the same in Alpha 17.

 

Leveling in general is just painfully slow, esp above 50-60. It feels like I can never get any 'quality of life perks' at all, which was not the case in Alpha 17. While I don't mind levelling being slowed down some, it feels too far in the other direction ATM where you feel like you can never get enough skill points no matter how long you play. At lvl 70+ I literally kill over 500 zombies a horde night (comparing before and after kill numbers), many of them being irradiated/demolition/cops and I gain only 1 level from that, just seems a little off to me.

 

Speaking of horde nights, I use about 1600 rounds of 9mm ammo (again I do track the specific before/after numbers for curiosity so this isn't a wild guess) to kill those 500+ zombies a night, but they drop so much loot that if I sell all of it, I get more dukes then I spent brass. Admittedly I probably play pretty ammo conservatively compared to a lot of people though (at least going by what I've read on the forums), but I am using 9mm weapons, which are the least brass efficient weapons in the game, and I feel like I don't even have to try to constantly have a net gain of brass, even fighting mostly high end zombies. Not sure if this really is an issue however, as I assume the intent is you are actually supposed to be able to use guns freely late game, and use ammo inefficient things like auto turrets. But I figured I'd comment on my experiences with brass in the late game, as I have seen other people commenting that they feel like there isn't enough brass available.

 

Part cost scaling with crafting quality isn't a bad idea, but can create strange situations where you feel like you are punished for levelling up a perk. When I was trying to craft an Auger, I constantly ran into the issue of getting just enough parts, but then I levelled up miner 69er another time and I didn't have enough again. Not really sure what can be done here, but it might be nice to be able to choose what quality you want to craft at, as sometimes you have other reasons to level the related perk (damage usually).

 

 

Well, I hope some of my 2 cents was useful.

[Tehkarma]

I have a decent high-pop server and I've gathered a few wave-top observations for balancing a18. For reference, we're currently in the stable build. Overall the vast majority of the game is great and my server is busier than it's been in years. Really good job, Pimps.

 

- Quests are fun, but it's killing us that they fail if you leave the area or log off. Not sure if this can be addressed.

- It's really odd that you get sick from canned food, not home cooked meals. Punctured/dented cans can introduce bacteria into the contents, the liining can fail (which is why they have experiation dates) and all sorts of things.

- With the books back (yay!!!) and player economies booming, is there a way to have vending machines list what was sold? It's usually a guessing game.

[kebab39]

Posting suggestion:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM2T5lbzSp8&feature=youtu.be&t=376 when are we going to get sexy gun sounds, animations, hand changing when each type of glove is worn and proper shotgun reload?

[bobross]

Its highly possible the formula for MP game stage is too aggressive. I think it just adds up your gs, so 6 level 30 guys is like one level 180 guy which is extreme late game. I'll visit with the guys on the actual formula. One man's too hard is another man's too easy.

 

Thanks MM. It's definitely not as simple as just adding up - the two of us had a GS of 44 and 40 for the Day 14 we did yesterday, but the combined GS was 76. No rads beyond a vulture or two according to the logs, but the last one on the old VM was around 175, which would ballpark on similar numbers to about Level 90, only with a lot more bodies. (We do 8 alive, but that's per-person. So, 48 alive with 6 players.)

 

And I definitely get what's too hard for some is too easy for others, but since we're running fairly bog-standard settings other than 120-minute days, it's what a small group of friends is going to walk into pretty regularly.

[Laz Man]

Look didn't mean to get you triggered there. The way I'm seeing it is that fortitude has Iron Gut which increases buff duration and reduces chance of debuff, Regeneration, and Heavy Armor. Seems a bit OP. You wanted feedback and I'm giving it.

 

Maybe roland can sum up alot of what has already been answered by MM so he doesnt have to repeat himself less. @Roland. 😂

[Jugginator]

Anyone else feel the Water Purification Mod is completely useless? I think it could be removed to save that asset for something else. Or grant the same buff the purified water gives. Or, turn it into something that crafts bottles of purified water.

[AtomicUs5000]

Anyone else feel the Water Purification Mod is completely useless? I think it could be removed to save that asset for something else. Or grant the same buff the purified water gives. Or, turn it into something that crafts bottles of purified water.

 

Yeah, I do. I find it unnecessary. I'd rather have some station that does it, available very late game only... more of an optional QOL feature to show off how well you survived.

[iBane]

I loot every toilet in the game, and never have to worry about having enough jars and murky water, and the rare pistol helps build my smg turret parts supply.

 

Hi MM, what determines rocket launcher quality? Demolitions expert? It's not clear from the description of the perk or the rocket launcher information. Thanks!