Alpha 18 feedback and balancing thread

[JaxTeller718]

This is how the gamestage of a party is calculated:

The gamestage of all (up to) 6 players is calculated.

The players are sorted by gamestage and only the 5 highest numbers go into the calculation.

 

The highest GS number is multiplied by "startingWeight".

This then loops down the list and "startingWeight" is reduced by "diminishingReturns" every time.

 

Example:

Players with GS 120, 30, 60, 91, 5, 80.

startingWeight= 1.7, diminishingReturns=0.22

 

So we get

120 * 1.70 = 204

91 * 1.48 = 134

80 * 1.26 = 100

60 * 1.04 = 62

30 * 0.82 = 24

5 (is ignored)

 

... or a total party GS of 524

 

An interesting fact is that the max GS of a part or player is now KNOWN because the player level (which caps daysAlive) and diff modifier are known

and the party weight factors are known.

 

With default values you get up to 600 for a single lvl 150 (max) player on max difficulty and for a full party of max level players up to 1800.

 

from the xml

[iBane]

As I've said its simply balance. I don't think any fundamental designs need changed too much. We are rebalancing loot so that even with lucky looter it won't ever be raining purples, no matter what level you are. I want to introduce a "loot quality slider" which delays/increases how fast the better loot and legendary get exposed to the drop list. It happens too fast IMO, you shouldn't even sniff at low probability purples until level 75. At level 100 it gets a small increase, etc. The slider can push that down to level 25, or up to 200. 25 would be for kids or people playing on nightmare/insane, hordes every night.

 

Just my opinion, but I think zombie bears should be the jackpot for rotten flesh. I typically get 6 or 7 off of them. Would help with making plots.

[Gareee]

Its highly possible the formula for MP game stage is too aggressive. I think it just adds up your gs, so 6 level 30 guys is like one level 180 guy which is extreme late game. I'll visit with the guys on the actual formula. One man's too hard is another man's too easy.

 

One thing we discovered on our new playthrough is that the multiplier is proximity based. One a horde night, if you aren't anywhere near other players, it doesn't multiply the gamestage.

 

As a workaround, we are all playing sp on our mp server.. everyone just doing their own thing.

 

I suggested that maybe a mp game setting with a gamestage multiplier slider with lower and higher settings than vanilla might be a good solution, and also offer another player option.

[Gareee]

Perhaps you could give game stage some geographic properties so that gamestage from each player is only added when they're in close proximity?

 

That already happens. None of us on my mp server are anywhere remotely near each other, and day 14 we just got standard zombies, not even spiders.

 

When two of us were playing together in the previous playthough, we had spiders on day 14, and also cops, wights, and spitting vultures on day 21.

[Guest Piratenking]

Maybe you should provide that key detail instead of just complaining. MM, made the same assumption due to "your" lack of providing information. So check the attitude at the door. Hope you have a great day. 😎

 

he made the same assumption because he read your assumption (reminds me of how trump got elected as president), and that detail is irrelevant as far as the improvement of the game goes, if you have insufficient information about something how about asking?

[Gareee]

Just my opinion, but I think zombie bears should be the jackpot for rotten flesh. I typically get 6 or 7 off of them. Would help with making plots.

 

Yeah, the yield from them doesn't feel right considering the size and the damage you need to do to them to kill them. If they are 10 times the size of a dog, shouldn't the yield from them be 10 times more?

 

Make em tougher if you think that is excessive so killing one is harder, but more rewarding.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

he made the same assumption because he read your assumption (reminds me of how trump got elected as president), and that detail is irrelevant as far as the improvement of the game goes, if you have insufficient information about something how about asking?

 

You seem hell bent on getting a forum ban, and Madmole already warned you once. Chill.

[Guest Piratenking]

Your the one who needs to put your ego aside. Computers are not designed to lose power randomly that's why someone invented UPC battery backups. Those protect your hardware and gives you a few minutes of battery life to shutdown your PC properly. File corruption is a real issue for many applications not just this video game. So instead of bringing your attitude here, open your mind and do your research first.

 

My ego is irrelevant for the game as i am not being paid to be the representative of the effort put into a game by a whole team, i dont have a position of responsability neither my job is as important as to objectively analyse feedback to improve the game.

 

You are not seriously suggesting that having every player in 7 days to die buy a UPC battery backup makes more sense than coding the game to make a back up file, are you?? (as 90% of the offline games in many genres do, civilization V, subnautica, oxygen not included, etc etc etc ) you forget the game is in alpha state, it can and should be improved upon not only in the content part but also in the technical aspects, if a situation like this arises how is blaming me, calling me a whiner, and telling me to look for solutions an improvement for the game?? how is that a professional attitude? i can understand that type of behaviour from other community members not from a game's representative.

 

that said my point has been made and i hope for the sake of other people with the same problem that they improve upon this, i wont be here to see it but i hope it helps other people not quiting this nice game that gave me so much fun.

[Guest Piratenking]

You are the one with the problem of flaky power. Sure we could write an incremental save game system but we're in alpha so how hard is it for you to understand that its a low priority 1 in 10 million edge cases of losing power while playing the game, when a save happens to be writing, which is the only way it could get corrupted. Its your issue, so I am telling you to make a shortcut to your save folder and make a backup periodically. This is a computer basic, I'm sure a master of pirating can figure out how to create a backup folder.

 

We have to stay focused on completing the game, not wasting engineering effort on 1 in 10 million edge cases that can be prevented with basic windows copy/paste functions.

 

 

how hard is for you to simply say: "ok mate, we take note but just letting you know that we have higher priorities atm"?????

 

once again you miss the whole point (wich is your attitude) you didnt even reflect on anything i said, i give up on you buddy, have a wonderful day.

[Marinxar]

how hard is for you to simply say: "ok mate, we take note but just letting you know that we have higher priorities atm"?????

 

once again you miss the whole point (wich is your attitude) you didnt even reflect on anything i said, i give up on you buddy, have a wonderful day.

 

I think you should take a breather mate. You running down a path that has no good ending, and you will most likely regret when you think over it later. Nothing said and done in anger can be taken back.

 

Just my opinion, but I think zombie bears should be the jackpot for rotten flesh. I typically get 6 or 7 off of them. Would help with making plots.

 

Oh yes, I was quite literally stunned when I saw that. I just avoid them now. a Scrawny bony vulture is worth more rot than that hulk of air.

[Jugginator]

how hard is for you to simply say: "ok mate, we take note but just letting you know that we have higher priorities atm"?????

 

once again you miss the whole point (wich is your attitude) you didnt even reflect on anything i said, i give up on you buddy, have a wonderful day.

 

Lmao the hell is your deal man? If your power is that bad you constantly lose power, you should be complaining to your ELECTRIC COMPANY, not madmole lmao. If your power goes out while any game is saving a file, that file is gone. That's even bad for your OS and your computer and the rest of your electronics, this IS a you issue.

[Jugginator]

My ego is irrelevant for the game as i am not being paid to be the representative of the effort put into a game by a whole team, i dont have a position of responsability neither my job is as important as to objectively analyse feedback to improve the game.

 

You are not seriously suggesting that having every player in 7 days to die buy a UPC battery backup makes more sense than coding the game to make a back up file, are you??

 

You're the only one who's complaining about this issue LOL. Man this forum is a good source of laughter. Btw there IS a backup file labeled .bak. But it's not reliable no, but it's a constantly saved game. You literally argued with manual saved games. If this game made backup saves like Civ auto saves you'd be looking at 500 GB worth of backups XD

[Laz Man]

Lmao the hell is your deal man? If your power is that bad you constantly lose power, you should be complaining to your ELECTRIC COMPANY, not madmole lmao. If your power goes out while any game is saving a file, that file is gone. That's even bad for your OS and your computer and the rest of your electronics, this IS a you issue.

 

No use arguing with the guy. Shows no ownership for his own behavior especially when all I was trying to do is suggest something that would help him out. 😂

[Jugginator]

No use arguing with the guy. Shows no ownership for his own behavior especially when all I was trying to do is suggest something that would help him out. ��

 

Kinda feel like it's the woman yelling at the cat meme with madmole as the cat haha

 

Staying on feedback topic, how about replacing the blocks you need wet concrete blocks for into rebar frames? Speaking of condensing things down, kinda like the curved block (whatever it's called).

 

Oh, and we need to let passengers use guns, so we can dupe a bunch of 4x4s and drive around with m60s blaring Rammstein or Rolling Stones

[Marinxar]

 

Oh, and we need to let passengers use guns, so we can dupe a bunch of 4x4s and drive around with m60s blaring Rammstein or Rolling Stones

 

 

Now I'm thinking Death Track ...

 

[Weazelsun]

Some feedback on my observations. For some context, I played up to lvl 76/Day 52 so far, Survivalist/24 Blood Moon Zombies/Jog, with a mostly Agility/Handguns character but dabbling a lot on various trees.

 

Melee Weapon Balance:

 

Clubs/Bats/Sledgehammers seem to be way better then other melee weapon types. This game generally favours dipping in and out with big single hits for melee, esp on higher difficulties where you can't really tank hits even with armour, and these are the best weapons for doing so. It doesn't help that the bats get their own magazine perks while other melee weapons lack anything similar, and that you have to invest in strength for mining anyways for single player.

 

 

Knives:

 

I assume the intent is you are supposed to bleed targets with Knives and then kite them around, however this ends up taking forever on higher difficulties, and the rapid attack speed of knives just isn't useful for anything but lawn mowing (which it is great for). Even with maxed perks, I can bleed up an enemy with a Knife, and run around for a while or I can just kill it in 1-3 hits with a bat (even some of the irradiated zombies die in 3 bat headshots). Just doesn't seem to make sense. Not sure if suggestions are wanted, but buffing the bleeds would be a start. At least make them do damage faster but maybe last less time.

 

Stun Batons:

 

Just low damage clubs with a 'stun' that isn't even a real stun. Doesn't help that it can be hard to find one early on if you are trying to go down that path. A buff to the stun of some kind would make sense, either make it do a bunch of damage over the duration, proc more often, or be a 'real' full stun.

 

Knuckles:

 

Same problem as knives with being fast but weak, which doesn't mesh well with melee combat in this game. They do have the saving grace that Fortitude has the farming perks, and Beer buffs knuckles, so I could see them being effective with 100% Beer uptime, but I feel like even if that is the point, maybe nerfing beer and buffing the base damage of knuckles would still make sense.

 

Spears:

 

The basic attack is weak and the throw doesn't do enough damage to make up for having to retrieve the weapon, esp if fighting a group. Admitedly the spear throw is probably a lot better on lower difficulties where it is more likely to 1 shot the target, but the baseball bat/sledge are also more likely to 1 shot targets on those difficulties. Basically the spear throw just doesn't do enough extra damage over a power attack from a bat to make up for the drawbacks IMHO, and should probably do more damage.

 

Bows/Crossbows:

 

In Alpha 17, and even more now in Alpha 18, Guns/Brass/Casings have become more common, which has eroded the old role of the Bow/Crossbow as a 'budget' ranged weapon. By itself this wouldn't be so bad, but now bows/crossbows require parts to make good ones (the primitive bow is awful), which seem even less common then gun parts, and really hinder the early game usefulness of bows/crossbows.

 

On top of this, Crossbows pretty much require perking Archery AND Run and Gun to max just to deal with the reload time/speed penalty, which makes them feel like a huge investment, and by the time you get there, you are fighting irradiated zombies, which are 10x easier to fight with a gun then a crossbow or bow, even with a rad remover mod, which makes you feel like you should have just put the points into guns instead.

 

Doesn't help that Bows/Crossbows share attribute with Handguns, and the Pistol/9mm ammo are ubiquitous, and the Pistol in general is a really solid end-game viable gun as it is. I was actually planning on going Bows early game, but found it was easier to get a Pistol/9mm then having to get Bow parts and gather the now rare feathers/polymers for steel arrows. And the Pistol was obviously way stronger overall then a Bow or Crossbow.

 

Counter-point, once your perked up in fortitude you should be doing a good amount of damage with the knuckles. Heck, on the server I play on that has a difficulty of 5/6, facing an irradiated zombie, I have managed to knock them down repeatedly. Then again it could be just that I also am perked 3/5 in flurry or blows along with 3/5 the brawler. Edit: I did have to retreat from an irradiated cop.

[Weazelsun]

@madmole, I've noticed that upon installing a Serrated Blade mod into my steel knuckles the effects of said mod which is "10% chance to cause a Bleeding Wound on a regular attack", does indeed proc. I don't know if that is intended or not, but I like it. What do you think of having the effects of Deep Cuts also affect the iron spear, steel spear, and steel knuckles? Since in-game model indicates they have blades on them.

[Gazz]

The only problem is that at 50%, you get a lot of special containers (shipping crates, locked crates, safes, etc..) that are totally empty. I don't suppose you could make a change so that those containers always have a reward even at 25% multiplier? Just scaling it down so you at least get a single gun part, a few bullets, some food, raw materials, etc..

At 100% these sometimes have 1 item. At 50% they have a chance to have fewer items. That's why you chose the 50% setting, right?

[Marinxar]

.... all that

 

I agree with that summary. Primitive bow is way too weak, as is spear. Compared to your other options.

 

Honestly I kite tank zombies with Spear until I get a 9mm, and that I use all the way through the game. I will use Markmanship rifle and M60 on horde nights, but for general gameplay the 9mm is boss.

 

I loved playing with a bow/crossbow, as I prefer stealth play. Especially on Warrior+ difficulty levels, you save so much ammo with sneak dmg bonus...., but with silencer for 9mm, again the bow/crossbow fades way way back in effectiveness.

 

EDIT: Only way to balance this, is to increase the damage of the bow type weapons. Making ammo or gun parts more scarse, will create a ♥♥♥♥ storm.

[Freshzombie]

Some feedback on my observations. For some context, I played up to lvl 76/Day 52 so far, Survivalist/24 Blood Moon Zombies/Jog, with a mostly Agility/Handguns character but dabbling a lot on various trees.

 

Melee Weapon Balance:

 

Clubs/Bats/Sledgehammers seem to be way better then other melee weapon types. This game generally favours dipping in and out with big single hits for melee, esp on higher difficulties where you can't really tank hits even with armour, and these are the best weapons for doing so. It doesn't help that the bats get their own magazine perks while other melee weapons lack anything similar, and that you have to invest in strength for mining anyways for single player.

 

 

Knives:

 

I assume the intent is you are supposed to bleed targets with Knives and then kite them around, however this ends up taking forever on higher difficulties, and the rapid attack speed of knives just isn't useful for anything but lawn mowing (which it is great for). Even with maxed perks, I can bleed up an enemy with a Knife, and run around for a while or I can just kill it in 1-3 hits with a bat (even some of the irradiated zombies die in 3 bat headshots). Just doesn't seem to make sense. Not sure if suggestions are wanted, but buffing the bleeds would be a start. At least make them do damage faster but maybe last less time.

 

Stun Batons:

 

Just low damage clubs with a 'stun' that isn't even a real stun. Doesn't help that it can be hard to find one early on if you are trying to go down that path. A buff to the stun of some kind would make sense, either make it do a bunch of damage over the duration, proc more often, or be a 'real' full stun.

 

Knuckles:

 

Same problem as knives with being fast but weak, which doesn't mesh well with melee combat in this game. They do have the saving grace that Fortitude has the farming perks, and Beer buffs knuckles, so I could see them being effective with 100% Beer uptime, but I feel like even if that is the point, maybe nerfing beer and buffing the base damage of knuckles would still make sense.

 

Spears:

 

The basic attack is weak and the throw doesn't do enough damage to make up for having to retrieve the weapon, esp if fighting a group. Admitedly the spear throw is probably a lot better on lower difficulties where it is more likely to 1 shot the target, but the baseball bat/sledge are also more likely to 1 shot targets on those difficulties. Basically the spear throw just doesn't do enough extra damage over a power attack from a bat to make up for the drawbacks IMHO, and should probably do more damage.

 

Bows/Crossbows:

 

In Alpha 17, and even more now in Alpha 18, Guns/Brass/Casings have become more common, which has eroded the old role of the Bow/Crossbow as a 'budget' ranged weapon. By itself this wouldn't be so bad, but now bows/crossbows require parts to make good ones (the primitive bow is awful), which seem even less common then gun parts, and really hinder the early game usefulness of bows/crossbows.

 

On top of this, Crossbows pretty much require perking Archery AND Run and Gun to max just to deal with the reload time/speed penalty, which makes them feel like a huge investment, and by the time you get there, you are fighting irradiated zombies, which are 10x easier to fight with a gun then a crossbow or bow, even with a rad remover mod, which makes you feel like you should have just put the points into guns instead.

 

Doesn't help that Bows/Crossbows share attribute with Handguns, and the Pistol/9mm ammo are ubiquitous, and the Pistol in general is a really solid end-game viable gun as it is. I was actually planning on going Bows early game, but found it was easier to get a Pistol/9mm then having to get Bow parts and gather the now rare feathers/polymers for steel arrows. And the Pistol was obviously way stronger overall then a Bow or Crossbow.

 

Nightmare all day/insane difficulty. Lv84

 

I agree on everthing you listed. Especially the part where "clubs/bats" are just strickly better on higher difficulty. Once I knock a radiated zombie down, it will stay knock down as long as i keep using power attack.

 

Knife is like a weaker version of clubs.

 

Spear is only useful, when the zombie are trap behind a block, or when I am on top of a 4x4 platform.

 

Kuckles are great if on lower difficulty.

On insane difficulty, with zombie always run, it is very hard to knock down your foes, with out taking damages.(on nightmare speed, you get surrounded very easily. Heavy armor will not save you.)

 

I put 3 perks in light armor, with customized fitting mod on all armor pieces, with a military stealth boots. This gives me 103% in mobility and allows me to use my bat to do the hit and run trick.

The rest of the perks goes to dead eye, armor peneration, pummel, and some perks under intelligent.

 

Conclusion: mobility and stamina are your best friends on higher difficulty. Because it always open up the window to disengage. And the knock down effects from the clubs/bat synergize with mobility really Well.

[mr.natural]

At 100% these sometimes have 1 item. At 50% they have a chance to have fewer items. That's why you chose the 50% setting, right?

 

I like that to be confirmed as my experience is that playing even at 75% you only get more often empty loot instead of less items.

 

And playing at 25% you get mostly nothing.

 

edit: I ment on 25% you don't get only 25% less loot but also 4 times more often empty loot which means it is more like 5% loot settings

[falloutcloud]

Maybe roland can sum up alot of what has already been answered by MM so he doesnt have to repeat himself less. @Roland. 😂

 

What makes you think I missed the original posting before a18 was released? Doesn't change my feedback and suggestion.

[mr.natural]

Would it not be nice that the available items for sale at the trader could also be set into 25, 50, 75% less? (And some might argue it should be possible to set to 150 and 200% too?)

 

The trader for sure has too much for sale at default settings IMO.

[hotpoon]

Are you ♥♥♥♥ing serious? are you rly telling me to back up my files every day i play the game???

Out of your control??? is out of your control to make the game create a saved file every ingame midnight??

Are you rly so short of sight as to assume ♥♥♥♥ i have never said?? this town has electric problems whenever there is strong winds, so should i go complain to the electric company because your incapability of putting your ego aside and analyse feeback in a objective manner to improve your game???

I seriously cant believe you are working with the professionals who made this nice game possible.

 

I live in South Africa, where our corrupt energy company runs out of coal on a regular basis and hasn't maintained power stations in the past 25 years, so I know a little bit about random electricity cuts. I know they can be infuriating, but you're misdirecting your anger here. It is not TFP's fault that your town has a power problem, and you really should get yourself a UPS - not just for the ability to have your games save properly, but also to prevent damage to your PC.

 

More importantly, you should try to speak to people with less aggression. This is a thread about balance issues, and while some of us are trying to have civil discussions, people like you get MadMole all riled up, and then he in turn answers other people like this:

 

How many times do I have to explain this? All combat focuses attributes need a way to heal. Strength gets master chef, those muscles need a lot of calories as well for mining, sledgehammers etc. Fortitude doesn't use any stamina in comparison (fists don't use much) has self healing and damage resistance already. Int has medicine for healing. Perception and agility avoid taking damage by shooting at a distance or hiding in the shadows.

 

MadMole, I suspect you would have answered that differently if you weren't getting lambasted by certain individuals, but if you stick by what you've said, I'd like to point out that not all of us have read every one of your posts, so if you see the same question popping up, it's not because we are deliberately trying to annoy you. It's obviously because it is a common concern.

 

I would like to make a suggestion regarding the perk tree. Before, I do, I want to mention that the perk tree is not terrible, and I, for one, will still happily play the game regardless...

 

From your explanation, I understand that you've tried to balance each branch (perspective, intelligence, etc) of the tree into specific classes, but in practise, this is frustrating for people who want to straddle those branches to create a custom build to suit their play style. For example, I want certain perks under the strength tree, but in order to get them, I find myself having to put points into strength which benefits unarmed combat (which I don't want). I feel I'm wasting points, which is something we shouldn't have to feel in a game like this.

 

People are constantly arguing about what type of game (crafting, building, looter shooter etc) it should be predominantly, but it's a multifacted sandbox game, that should cater to all playstyles instead of pigeon-holed class builds. So to satisfy each playstyle, you could arrange the tree branches into the following:

 

SURVIVAL

Contains perks regarding managing temperature, hunger, cooking, stamina, health reg etc.

 

RESOURCES

Contains perks regarding mining, farming, hunting, etc.

 

CRAFTING/BUILDING/ENGINEERING

Contains perks regarding crafting of items, and building bases, traps, and vehicles

 

SNEAKING/LOOTING/ADVENTURE

Contains perks regarding stealth, lockpicking, loot bonuses, merchant skills

 

COMBAT MELEE

Contains perks regarding unarmed, spears, clubs, etc

 

COMBAT RANGED

Contains perks regarding archery and guns

 

With the above format people could spec into multiple branches depending on their interests, without feeling like they are wasting points.

[hotpoon]

...

 

Spears:

 

The basic attack is weak and the throw doesn't do enough damage to make up for having to retrieve the weapon, esp if fighting a group. Admitedly the spear throw is probably a lot better on lower difficulties where it is more likely to 1 shot the target, but the baseball bat/sledge are also more likely to 1 shot targets on those difficulties. Basically the spear throw just doesn't do enough extra damage over a power attack from a bat to make up for the drawbacks IMHO, and should probably do more damage.

...

 

I think what the spear lacks in damage, it gains in reach. I will take the longer reach over the damage any day.

[Guest Piratenking]

I think you should take a breather mate. You running down a path that has no good ending, and you will most likely regret when you think over it later. Nothing said and done in anger can be taken back.

 

i didnt say anything just for the sake of offending or venting anger, i genuinely believe what i said, and if taken objectively it can help both the game and MM, but i would like to move on, this thread is about feedback, this went off topic a while ago and thats not ok, but i take note of your advice, cheers.