Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[Jedo]

Exactly this! We cannot take for granted they will do what is logical.

 

*facepalm*

[Ghostlight]

8. Death Penalty

 

Again, I do realize this is a particularly opinionated issue. I am against the current version. To me, death and the hike back to your bag is failure and the fear of losing my hard-earned equipment should I die again is worse than any temporary penalty.

 

Another serious problem with the death penalty that seems to be rarely mentioned is that once the player is level 100 (or there abouts), the penalty is completely and utterly irrelevant. Death then becomes a convenience to rid yourself of unwanted debuffs or to fast travel.

 

I think the best penalty would be a loss of XP, calculated as a function of the player's level. But never enough that the player can lose a level.

[HungryZombie]

This being Alpha, TFP are still working on AI - it's a system in evolution. I expect you'll find the current omniscient AI of Zombies, will be largely transferred to bandits (just as you're expecting), and A18 zombies will be somewhat less efficient at calculating the single handedly best path to reach you.

 

Seems to me, people are getting worked up thinking the A17 Zombie AI is how is going to be for all time from now on, when TFP haven't said anything like that.

 

I'm not sure I'm following you. You are saying someday we will have bandits that will radar detect you, all beat upon the weakest block in your base and pour through the wall like the zombies do now and that's going to be better? It's not really the type of enemy that's the issue I think.

[RipClaw]

Another serious problem with the death penalty that seems to be rarely mentioned is that once the player is level 100 (or there abouts), the penalty is completely and utterly irrelevant. Death then becomes a convenience to rid yourself of unwanted debuffs or to fast travel.

 

I think the best penalty would be a loss of XP, calculated as a function of the player's level. But never enough that the player can lose a level.

 

I don't think losing XP at a higher level is really a penalty. The possible loss of equipment is much more noticeable to the player than any other penalty.

 

If you don't want people to use death to get rid of debuffs then the debuffs should be kept after death. Except of course the debuffs that should lead to death like a stage 3 infection.

 

The few people who use death as a fast-travel should not matter. At least they can't take their complete inventory with them.

[PoppaTot]

The few people who use death as a fast-travel should not matter. At least they can't take their complete inventory with them.

 

My guess is the people that do this, also use "drop nothing on death" as an option as well. Such a lazy way to play imo.

[RipClaw]

My guess is the people that do this, also use "drop nothing on death" as an option as well. Such a lazy way to play imo.

 

This option is only possible in singeplayer with a modlet. You can choose between deleting everything, dropping everything or just dropping the backpack. And if you use a modlet to set that you can also go to debug mode and teleport.

[PoppaTot]

This option is only possible in singeplayer with a modlet. You can choose between deleting everything, dropping everything or just dropping the backpack. And if you use a modlet to set that you can also go to debug mode and teleport.

 

learn something new everyday lol. I always play with the setting "Drop Everything".

[hotpoon]

I'm not sure I'm following you. You are saying someday we will have bandits that will radar detect you, all beat upon the weakest block in your base and pour through the wall like the zombies do now and that's going to be better? It's not really the type of enemy that's the issue I think.

 

This is a very good point. A few nights ago, I experienced a horde night that made me realise the AI has real time X-ray vision:

 

I holed myself up in a small room and the zombies of course started bashing on the door because that is the weakest link. As they were bashing, I was repairing it, and when I ran out of wood, I popped a barb wire block over the entrance. They immediately stopped bashing on the door and started concentrating on a particular block in the wall. I popped a barb wire block over that, and they immediately stopped and moved on to another one, and so it went.

 

Zombies should be dumb. I think most of us (that are reasonable) can agree there, but not even bandits should be able to see through the wall and magically know that there is barb wire on the other side.

 

Technically, since they always stated that this was just the preliminary step in the new AI and pathfinding and never stated anywhere that it was the final product you really didn’t have to point it out so they can fix it. They were always going to fix it. You pointing it out is just to make yourself feel better.

 

Even psychologists can’t get anything accomplished in less than nine sessions....

I hope it is a priority for the devs because at this point, I no longer want to go through horde night. I know you can exploit them, but that's not my style.

[Roland]

I'm not sure I'm following you. You are saying someday we will have bandits that will radar detect you, all beat upon the weakest block in your base and pour through the wall like the zombies do now and that's going to be better? It's not really the type of enemy that's the issue I think.

 

Let me see if I can help.

 

Effective AI has perfect information available to it but through programming it “makes mistakes” in order to appear to not have perfect information.

 

Before A17 there was no perfect information. Entities got stuck or went in circles because there was no pathing code to speak of. Faatal created the pathing code which has given the AI the perfect information it needs. There was time to do a little bit of programming to mask that perfect information but it will be an ongoing project to make it so the zombies behave randomly, stupidly, and not perfectly—and yet also not get stuck on random terrain oddities or start spinning or walking in circles. It is going to take time and it is a very rare game that gets the perfect balance which is why you often here gamers complaining about cheating AI. The AI isn’t cheating it’s just that the restraints on the perfect information it always has broke down in that situation.

 

So knowing the weak point and zeroing in on that point every single time is not the goal for any entity in the game (except maybe an engineer class bandit....) However, It is a necessity for the information to exist so that a full spectrum of varied behaviors can be coded in by withholding various amounts of that perfect information.

 

Now, to the naive, it will appear like faatal is going to be playing a game of one upmanship with the players as he stops exploits and works on getting the enemies to behave at the level he wants. But I assure you he isn’t battling against anyone and his goal is to have a robust and varied spectrum of behaviors that will challenge the players but not feel unfair.

[Guppycur]

Let me see if I can help you without overusing the word "perfect".

 

Faatal created a BASELINE AI that does a lot of crap, so that if certain aspects are taken away, it will simulate bandits. If certain other aspects are taken away, it will simulate zombies.

 

Right now we seem to be testing the baseline AI.

[Gazz]

What Guppy said. (anyone know which reality this is? =)

 

Getting the AI working at all means here that you can drop an entity into a voxel world and it can successfully navigate/destroy obstacles and complete the objective of snacking on the players' brains.

[HungryZombie]

Let me see if I can help.

 

Effective AI has perfect information available to it but through programming it “makes mistakes” in order to appear to not have perfect information.

 

Before A17 there was no perfect information. Entities got stuck or went in circles because there was no pathing code to speak of. Faatal created the pathing code which has given the AI the perfect information it needs. There was time to do a little bit of programming to mask that perfect information but it will be an ongoing project to make it so the zombies behave randomly, stupidly, and not perfectly—and yet also not get stuck on random terrain oddities or start spinning or walking in circles. It is going to take time and it is a very rare game that gets the perfect balance which is why you often here gamers complaining about cheating AI. The AI isn’t cheating it’s just that the restraints on the perfect information it always has broke down in that situation.

 

So knowing the weak point and zeroing in on that point every single time is not the goal for any entity in the game (except maybe an engineer class bandit....) However, It is a necessity for the information to exist so that a full spectrum of varied behaviors can be coded in by withholding various amounts of that perfect information.

 

Now, to the naive, it will appear like faatal is going to be playing a game of one upmanship with the players as he stops exploits and works on getting the enemies to behave at the level he wants. But I assure you he isn’t battling against anyone and his goal is to have a robust and varied spectrum of behaviors that will challenge the players but not feel unfair.

 

Sounds reasonable and it's pretty much what I had assumed. I was probing to verify if this was the case though.

[Roland]

Let me see if I can help you without overusing the word "perfect".

 

Faatal created a BASELINE AI that does a lot of crap, so that if certain aspects are taken away, it will simulate bandits. If certain other aspects are taken away, it will simulate zombies.

 

Right now we seem to be testing the baseline AI.

 

uh...perfect.

[hotpoon]

Let me see if I can help.

 

Effective AI has perfect information available to it but through programming it “makes mistakes” in order to appear to not have perfect information.

 

Before A17 there was no perfect information. Entities got stuck or went in circles because there was no pathing code to speak of. Faatal created the pathing code which has given the AI the perfect information it needs. There was time to do a little bit of programming to mask that perfect information but it will be an ongoing project to make it so the zombies behave randomly, stupidly, and not perfectly—and yet also not get stuck on random terrain oddities or start spinning or walking in circles. It is going to take time and it is a very rare game that gets the perfect balance which is why you often here gamers complaining about cheating AI. The AI isn’t cheating it’s just that the restraints on the perfect information it always has broke down in that situation.

 

So knowing the weak point and zeroing in on that point every single time is not the goal for any entity in the game (except maybe an engineer class bandit....) However, It is a necessity for the information to exist so that a full spectrum of varied behaviors can be coded in by withholding various amounts of that perfect information.

 

Now, to the naive, it will appear like faatal is going to be playing a game of one upmanship with the players as he stops exploits and works on getting the enemies to behave at the level he wants. But I assure you he isn’t battling against anyone and his goal is to have a robust and varied spectrum of behaviors that will challenge the players but not feel unfair.

 

Thanks for that explanation Roland. That's a relief to hear.

I wonder sometimes if our needless complaints could be prevented if you had a sticky thread with an FAQ of current issues that the devs are working towards. Not just listing the current issues like the patch notes do, but a nice explanation of what the the devs intent is around those issues - just like you did with this one. Just a thought.

[Grue]

Let me see if I can help.

 

Effective AI has perfect information available to it but through programming it “makes mistakes” in order to appear to not have perfect information.

 

Before A17 there was no perfect information. Entities got stuck or went in circles because there was no pathing code to speak of. Faatal created the pathing code which has given the AI the perfect information it needs. There was time to do a little bit of programming to mask that perfect information but it will be an ongoing project to make it so the zombies behave randomly, stupidly, and not perfectly—and yet also not get stuck on random terrain oddities or start spinning or walking in circles. It is going to take time and it is a very rare game that gets the perfect balance which is why you often here gamers complaining about cheating AI. The AI isn’t cheating it’s just that the restraints on the perfect information it always has broke down in that situation.

 

So knowing the weak point and zeroing in on that point every single time is not the goal for any entity in the game (except maybe an engineer class bandit....) However, It is a necessity for the information to exist so that a full spectrum of varied behaviors can be coded in by withholding various amounts of that perfect information.

 

Now, to the naive, it will appear like faatal is going to be playing a game of one upmanship with the players as he stops exploits and works on getting the enemies to behave at the level he wants. But I assure you he isn’t battling against anyone and his goal is to have a robust and varied spectrum of behaviors that will challenge the players but not feel unfair.

 

Let me see if I can help you without overusing the word "perfect".

 

Faatal created a BASELINE AI that does a lot of crap, so that if certain aspects are taken away, it will simulate bandits. If certain other aspects are taken away, it will simulate zombies.

 

Right now we seem to be testing the baseline AI.

 

 

I see what you are saying now.

 

The A16.4 zombies used to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

 

But that was not good enough, they had to make them totally freaking omniscient.

Now the A17.1 zombies:

Use a GPS tracker to find you no matter where you are at.

Laser focus on the shortest possible path to the target.

Focus all damage into the smallest possible area to penetrate the target.

Have diamond tipped claws that can dig through solid steel like butter, because Why not?

 

Then the plan is to teach them to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

 

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

[Tin]

I see what you are saying now.

 

The A16.4 zombies used to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

 

But that was not good enough, they had to make them totally freaking omniscient.

Now the A17.1 zombies:

Use a GPS tracker to find you no matter where you are at.

Laser focus on the shortest possible path to the target.

Focus all damage into the smallest possible area to penetrate the target.

Have diamond tipped claws that can dig through solid steel like butter, because Why not?

 

Then the plan is to teach them to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

 

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

 

Yeah, because in a16.4 it was great fun:

Watching as they would, get stuck on air?

Run in circles when you were right next to them ground level?

Them walk up to you, then turn around and just wonder away.. well because?

Yeah, those were the days with them and their "like zombie" behavior, sure wish we could go back to that..

[Royal Deluxe]

Be happy that they are so smart.

If not with that current damage they would be a pain in the Azz

[HungryZombie]

I see what you are saying now.

 

The A16.4 zombies used to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

 

But that was not good enough, they had to make them totally freaking omniscient.

Now the A17.1 zombies:

Use a GPS tracker to find you no matter where you are at.

Laser focus on the shortest possible path to the target.

Focus all damage into the smallest possible area to penetrate the target.

Have diamond tipped claws that can dig through solid steel like butter, because Why not?

 

Then the plan is to teach them to:

Wonder around aimlessly until some player activity got their attention (like zombies).

Once player activity was detected, they would swarm that general area (like zombies).

Then mindlessly bash on whatever obstacles got in their way (like zombies).

Using sheer numbers, hordes even, to be a threat (like zombies).

 

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

 

It was spelled out by no less than three different people so I'm not sure what else could be said to make you understand.

[Grue]

So, kidding aside, I just don't play like that. I don't track or even think about where xp is coming from. I'm very interested in fact in a modlet somebody mentioned for removing the xp announcement in the lower right corner.

 

I guess our brains are wired differently. I just don't worry or analyze what percentage of my experience comes from which source and I really believe it is because I am not strategically trying to be efficient about gaining xp. I play the game. I cook when I need to. I chop trees when I need to. I kill zombies when I need to. I explore and clear POI's for fun and for looting. I mine for resources as I need to. I really do play a game full of varied activities and I see it all going into my avatar's gain in experience. So when I take a perk in cooking it is because I as a player want my avatar to be better at that and I view the points as being an aggregate of all my activities.

 

Now for someone who does focus on the single best method of gaining xp and so who does that one activity repetitive for the purpose of gaining xp points I can see how they might feel that they are mining to learn bacon and eggs. But I don't play that way and as long as people are talking about core gameplay, I don't think that playing the game to repetitively focus on one activity to rapidly gain levels is the core of this game regardless of the model chosen for player progression.

 

I would invite you to go back to Alpha 10 and play that game and figure out why you are doing the activities you are doing when there is zero xp or player levels to be had. Is the gameplay all worthless without xp to be earned? Many of the people with multiple thousands of hours put those hours in during Alphas 1 - 10 before there ever was any xp and somehow they found value in mining, harvesting, building, exploring, looting, etc. without worrying about where xp was coming from and how much you got for it.

 

I still play pretty much the same way I did back then as far as my purposes and goals. So I can tell you that when I spend points for anything in the game those points feel like they came from all the activities I do to become a more experienced survivalist and I never feel a break of immersion that I'm spending THIS point from killing 10 zombies in order to be able to build a bicycle now.

 

I'm not saying the system is perfect. I think it can be improved. But the current system is great for me and the way I play. I'm sorry it doesn't work for how you like to play.

 

What you are describing is essentially an organic user experience.

When you need to gather supplies you go mine, chop wood etc.

If you need to build things, you build.

If you feel like running around scavenging, you go explore.

When you need to shoot/stab/bludgeon something, you had better do it.

 

These activities would happen without any XP system to prompt you or gates to slow you down, A10 for example.

Then the XP/Perk system was implemented using learn by doing which flowed logically.

 

When you need to gather supplies you go mine, chop wood, and you got better at using mining tools, and if good enough qualified for some perks.

If you need to build things, you build, and you got better at using construction tools, and if good enough qualified for some new recipes and materials.

If you feel like running around scavenging, you go explore, and athletics goes, scavenging goes up, appropriate perks become available...

When you need to shoot/stab/bludgeon something, you get better at whatever weapon you are actually using, appropriate perks become available...

All of these progressions (more or less) made senses, because they were in line with the organic user experience, thus they did not feel forced.

 

You were simply playing the game, and got better at skills by actually practicing those skills. Minimal level gating necessary.

 

The new XP/Perk process is disjointed from the activity, so now you are forced to stop mining because it is painfully inefficient, to go kill things in order to get better at mining.

 

I find myself looking for extra zombies to kill so I can learn how to cook bacon and eggs!

 

Now there are level gates and perk walls to do even the most basic stuff.

Why must I wait 10 levels without a forge?

Why wait 20 levels before I can make basic iron tools?

Why are these two separate ♥♥♥♥ing perks!? I have the forge, but do not know how to use it yet?

Why should I need to spend points to learn how to get seeds?

What the hell do either of these have to do with "fortitude"?

 

The game is now stuck in low gear and forces an extreme XP grind on top of the already somewhat tedious resource grind that was already a big part of the game. Add that to the laser-guided-bunker-buster hordes and might as well not even play til the next patch.

[Grue]

It was spelled out by no less than three different people so I'm not sure what else could be said to make you understand.

 

Oh, I am sorry, did I use too many words and confuse you again?

The zombies already acted like zombies.

No need to program an elaborate AI so you can teach them to act like zombies.

 

 

Yeah, because in a16.4 it was great fun:

Watching as they would, get stuck on air?

Run in circles when you were right next to them ground level?

Them walk up to you, then turn around and just wonder away.. well because?

Yeah, those were the days with them and their "like zombie" behavior, sure wish we could go back to that..

 

I never witnessed any of those problems.

 

Be happy that they are so smart.

If not with that current damage they would be a pain in the Azz

 

Yeah, good point.

[psycros]

Yeah sure, they will just follow your lead and forget about their own ideas in THEIR game. You wouldn't either if you ever developed a game yourself.

 

Just try to imagine it, how much control would you give the players of your game? Would you listen to them on balancing the game or add ideas from them that you like? Sure, you would.

BUT would you ever add something you don't like just because a part of your players want it? Or not implement an idea you like because part of your players don't like it (and others like it!) ? I highly doubt that.

 

I have private emails of about a dozen active game devs. I actually know a couple personally, one of whom works for a very well known (though perhaps not well respected) company, if that matters at all. They both tell me that they try to listen to the players as much as they can, but a big factor is figuring out which ones are actually concerned about the game's health vs the ones who just want an autowin button. You listen to the people who have a mature perspective regarding balance, immersion, overall fun factor and other aspects of design..the rest you just give a smile-and-wave.

[Jedo]

The new XP/Perk process is disjointed from the activity, so now you are forced to stop mining because it is painfully inefficient, to go kill things in order to get better at mining.

 

I find myself looking for extra zombies to kill so I can learn how to cook bacon and eggs!

 

Maybe you are forced to stop mining for that reason.

 

I mine until I need food. Then I realize that I don't have any food, so I better go get some. While going to get some, I encounter a fair number of zombies, which I kill. It happens that I find some really good loot while looking for food, and I decide that I will see whether the trader will give me a good price for it. On my way, I encounter some wolves (yay food!). After all of this, night has descended on me sooner than I expected, and I'm a little ways from home. Rather than making the trek back, I hole up in a little house off the road. I find more loot and kill more zombies. The next day, I return to my base to mine some more and...what's this?! I have some skill points that I can use to up my mining skill.

 

I never witnessed any of those problems.

 

Then you were blind.

[Ghostlight]

I have private emails of about a dozen active game devs. I actually know a couple personally, one of whom works for a very well known (though perhaps not well respected) company.

 

Bethesda?

[Hek Harris]

I have private emails of about a dozen active game devs.

Nothing really exceptional, I also have my mailbox full of mails of devs. For example :

 

Please, stop sending me those pictures or I will call the police

I know who you are moron and I'm gonna come to knock on your f**ing door if you don't stop calling me at night !

What don't you understand in "restrictive order" ?!!

[Guppycur]

Haha