SickPuppy Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 1 hour REALTIME is 1 full DAY ingame by default. You lose ALL perks for a full ingame day, including the ability to make and use iron, steel, concrete, cook anything other than charred foods, and basically become a completely useless noob in a game that is very time-crunch sensitive. Oh, and you lost your ability to get bonus damage from headshots, your natural regen, disease resistances, and your bonuses to looting. Get reked by a crawler, son, and you're level 1 for a day. Get greased by 'surprise twenty dogs' on day 7 or 14, and you pretty much just got forced to abandon base defense for the whole horde night. You my as well pack up your things, strip naked, and AFK outside your base, because you got your level 50 ass noob'ed to the stone age, because you can't do ♥♥♥♥, boy. Literally unplayable. At least in A16 there were viable defense methods. Now it's just "Oh kay, i'm out of options. Lets do the whole 'hurry up and kill me" thing so I can keep playing." Better to have 6 days of decent gameplay than to literally burn it all to the ground trying to pointlessly defend it. U got 'reked by a crawler'? Seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor3D Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I just got to thinking about destroy on death and I remember one of the last times I played with that setting. It was back when we had calipers in the game and they were very rare. I remember finding calipers on a dog day and being cornered in a store with dogs. My heart was pounding because I knew if I died I would lose those rare calipers. It was incredibly intense. I loved it. If I knew that the backpack would still be there even if I died..that moment wouldn't have been as good. Since I could just run right back and grab them..no harm no foul. So maybe that articulates better why I welcome any penalties. Those moments like that are very tense and fun for me when there's a REAL consequence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 And, you can mod it out. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I put in a request for a modlet for this. I'm sure once sphereii is done organizing he will make a lot of options public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RestInPieces Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 if the only penalty of death was knowing that i f'd up, that would be enough incentive for me to be cautious. but there were already other incentives. wellness loss. Knowing you ♥♥♥♥ed up was a penalty? Can you elaborate? How did you fail by dying? And don't tell me you cared about wellness - to keep it meaningfully high you had to die very rarely. And if that was the case this death penalty wouldn't be a problem for you. Barely anyone cared about wellness - could raise its min to 120, die as much as you want and reset any negative status as a bonus. dog day It's always these silly frame-skipping dogs. Game is almost a dog survival especially on early game, considering how overtuned they are compared to poor zombies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordwaster Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 And, you can mod it out. =) oh i will. just like i will increase perk points and remove level restrictions. AFTER the experimental. modding an experimental build invalidates any opinion you may have on game balance, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Some people just hate playing the game at lower levels. This just another facet of that. I agree that it has less to do with difficulty as it does with having to play at a lower level for an hour (2 hours for the 120 min day folks). People who like to play as a god are going to hate this penalty just like they hate the level gates that force them to spend some time at primitive levels and just like they hate the removal of auto leveling of skills that can quickly be powergrinded up to top levels. I’m perfectly fine with the death penalty AND I find it fun because it creates the risk of a death spiral. I enjoy playing the game as a vulnerable member of the world who could die easily at any moment. I would never miss that challenge by just going AFK for an hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I like the middle ground they found between pokeman and dead is dead. It's a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordwaster Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Knowing you ♥♥♥♥ed up was a penalty? Can you elaborate? How did you fail by dying? And don't tell me you cared about wellness - to keep it meaningfully high you had to die very rarely. And if that was the case this death penalty wouldn't be a problem for you. Barely anyone cared about wellness - could raise its min to 120, die as much as you want and reset any negative status as a bonus. you don't get frustrated when you die? that doesn't feel like failure to you? and the fact that there was an option to counter act the wellness loss doesn't mean that it wasn't a penalty. yes you COULD take perks to raise it, but that meant not taking other perks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doombringer101 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I like the middle ground they found between pokeman and dead is dead. It's a good idea. Agreed, its certainly an incentive to retreat when required and not get in to risky situations without an escape plan. I am loving it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaeliorin Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I’m perfectly fine with the death penalty AND I find it fun because it creates the risk of a death spiral.Gotta be honest, that's the first time I've ever seen anyone say anything positive about a death spiral mechanic. Personally, I don't mind the death penalty (the only thing that really bothers me is losing my pack mule points, but that's because I'm not a huge fan of the limited inventory) and I've played with it without any real problems (other than the aforementioned.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SickPuppy Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 there has been a consequence to death from the first time i played the game. you lost wellness. it made you play more cautiously because you knew you had less room for error because of the lower health. the new consequence is boredom. being unable to do the things that i want to do. for an hour. which most sane people with jobs and families recognize as being a exceedingly long period of time. and this "challenge" bs is bs. if i hadn't been killed twice so far by enemies that did not make a single sound until they hit me in the back, maybe you'd have a leg to stand on. if i hadn't seen a pack of dogs on day 3 maybe. but having all of my abilities taken away because lumberjacks can walk silently on snow? no. the death penalty doesn't add challenge. it doesn't ADD anything. it only takes away. i cannot for the life of me understand why you think being put on "time out" improves this game in any way. this is a game. games are meant to be played. but this penalty is taking all my toys away. failure is its own penalty. there is no need for this. This thread is starting become one big troll bait. How often are you all dying? Every play session? Every real life hour so the penalties are consecutive? The amount of complaining and whining is a joke. + Yes and when ppl reached 70 wellness they would abuse that system to fast travel back to base. - "Whatever, I have another 20 purple snipers back home" + Play on easier settings? - No! Don't u dare insult me u 'unemployed hardcore elitist bastard!' + There's a console command u can delete the penalties however long u deem fit. - No! I want it at 15mins....No! I want it 30mins, because I am part of the sane majority. Don't u dare tell me to cheat u 'unemployed hardcore elitist bastard!' - Meh! I'm bored for an hour coz I can't think of anything to do in an open voxel game. I have a whole arsenal of weapons n toys I can't use! I have a job dammit! Rabble! + TFP now have to cater for unemployed & employed or else they have failed. - I was jumped by silent/ninja zombies because I refuse to check my surroundings and I will open the menu whenever and wherever I choose WTF TFP how is that realism?! Rabble! + U heard it, TFP please install speakers and neon signs on zombies. I have a job I can't play all day, I'm fine with the penalties, there's methods to disable penalties. People have also suggested ideas to make it less harsh on lower settings, but making things easier only promotes more bad play. To bring your job into it and using that as an excuse? I'm done with this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Gotta be honest, that's the first time I've ever seen anyone say anything positive about a death spiral mechanic. Personally, I don't mind the death penalty (the only thing that really bothers me is losing my pack mule points, but that's because I'm not a huge fan of the limited inventory) and I've played with it without any real problems (other than the aforementioned.) Please don’t misunderstand. Being in a death spiral is not good . The RISK of a death spiral is what is good. When the consequences of death are inconsequential so is the thrill and fear. I don’t want to be in a death spiral but I damn well want the risk of one in the game so that I worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordwaster Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 This thread is starting become one big troll bait. How often are you all dying? Every play session? Every real life hour so the penalties are consecutive? The amount of complaining and whining is a joke. + Yes and when ppl reached 70 wellness they would abuse that system to fast travel back to base. - "Whatever, I have another 20 purple snipers back home" + Play on easier settings? - No! Don't u dare insult me u 'unemployed hardcore elitist bastard!' + There's a console command u can delete the penalties however long u deem fit. - No! I want it at 15mins....No! I want it 30mins, because I am part of the sane majority. Don't u dare tell me to cheat u 'unemployed hardcore elitist bastard!' - Meh! I'm bored for an hour coz I can't think of anything to do in an open voxel game. I have a whole arsenal of weapons n toys I can't use! I have a job dammit! Rabble! + TFP now have to cater for unemployed & employed or else they have failed. - I was jumped by silent/ninja zombies because I refuse to check my surroundings and I will open the menu whenever and wherever I choose WTF TFP how is that realism?! Rabble! + U heard it, TFP please install speakers and neon signs on zombies. I have a job I can't play all day, I'm fine with the penalties, there's methods to disable penalties. People have also suggested ideas to make it less harsh on lower settings, but making things easier only promotes more bad play. To bring your job into it and using that as an excuse? I'm done with this thread. someone is cranky. i'd argue over how many marks you missed. but you're done with this thread. so...bye. - - - Updated - - - Please don’t misunderstand. Being in a death spiral is not good . The RISK of a death spiral is what is good. When the consequences of death are inconsequential so is the thrill and fear. I don’t want to be in a death spiral but I damn well want the risk of one in the game so that I worry about it. see now...that's the thing. i messed up on day two and didn't have the resources stored; main issue was food, to recover from it. (i mistook a poi for a trader base...oops) it really, really, really isn't fun to actually be in that early game death spiral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombiepoptard Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 30mins please for death penalty. love the penalty but an hour is a bit much. Thank you for a17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaeliorin Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Please don’t misunderstand. Being in a death spiral is not good . The RISK of a death spiral is what is good. When the consequences of death are inconsequential so is the thrill and fear. I don’t want to be in a death spiral but I damn well want the risk of one in the game so that I worry about it.I suppose it's probably because most of the time when discussing game design I'm discussing RPGs that it surprised me. Generally, in my experience, death spirals existing in a game is considered a bad thing, so I was startled that someone was happy that it existed. Honestly, I don't think the death penalty is super death-spiral-y. Most of the bonuses you get from perks are small enough (well, depending on how big the penalties actually are, I've yet to see someone high level get hit with it, so it's always reduced everything from, at most, 3 to 1 in my experience) to not make the game unplayable when penalized, or even necessarily that much harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue0mt Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Please don’t misunderstand. Being in a death spiral is not good . The RISK of a death spiral is what is good. When the consequences of death are inconsequential so is the thrill and fear. I don’t want to be in a death spiral but I damn well want the risk of one in the game so that I worry about it. I'm mostly fine with the penalty. I've died only thrice now. Once on day 20 and twice on the day 21 horde night. Take all the quality of life perks away, hell take all the exp from the current level too + make it so that leveling is impossible for the duration of the debuff, I don't care. But not being able to remember how to craft something is just bad. You die, lose the ability to craft defenses for the base and yourself, die because of it and you are now in the death spiral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 someone is cranky. i'd argue over how many marks you missed. but you're done with this thread. so...bye. - - - Updated - - - see now...that's the thing. i messed up on day two and didn't have the resources stored; main issue was food, to recover from it. (i mistook a poi for a trader base...oops) it really, really, really isn't fun to actually be in that early game death spiral. ...and you likely won't make those same mistakes again, so we agree this is a non issue, right? =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordwaster Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 gup, don't i always agree that nothing really matters? particularly if xmls are involved? i just like to have friendly discussions with friendly people about the things that give us hard gameplay at night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 I must admit, I could be an idea if the death penalty couldn't lower paid perks below a certain level (1 or 2 perhaps) or forgo the perk loss if the character is below a certain level (10 or 20 say). Have you even tried it? That is how it already works. You do not "lose all attributes" or "lose all progress". That's all hyperbole. You cannot lose more than 1/2 of a maxed-for-your-level attribute. I’m perfectly fine with the death penalty AND I find it fun because it creates the risk of a death spiral. Again, it gets somewhat harder but a higher level penalty of more than 1 point declines as the buff keeps running. After 30 min it's only 1/2. Players have to get used to any penalty at all because A16 had none. =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzHawkeye Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Have you even tried it? That is how it already works. You do not "lose all attributes" or "lose all progress". That's all hyperbole. You cannot lose more than 1/2 of a maxed-for-your-level attribute. Again, it gets somewhat harder but a higher level penalty of more than 1 point declines as the buff keeps running. After 30 min it's only 1/2. Players have to get used to any penalty at all because A16 had none. =) Sorry Gazz, I haven't died in either of my two test games so far.... hehe. ;-) I's bein' careful. Well, actually, I did in the first one, but right away, so had no perks anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawth77 Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Players have to get used to any penalty at all because A16 had none. =) Honestly, i'm good with that. Especially on consoles, where you could build a base using poles and wedge tips to make enemies essentially just targets, it's good to have ramped up difficulty. As a player coming from other games like State of Decay, where the penalty for death is completely losing a character and never being able to get them back, a stat penalty seems like a small thing. You could, in theory, try to work it so that the penalty is focused on more specific stats. For example, you get mauled by a camp that has 3 dogs, 3 snakes, and 2 vultures (which is, honestly, what happened lol) when you jump over the wall without looking. You die, but instead of all stats, you would lose only a couple of specific ones, like -2 perception and -2 agility (or more, depending on stats, etc). Of course, this could stack, and you'd lose all of your strength and nothing else for a little while. Even allowing for the use of some sort of "wellness item" to mitigate the injury or remove a small amount of time remaining? Personally, I'm really enjoying everything overall, and i'm thankful you guys put the update out. It's good to see the additional challenge (though we may need to talk about scaling back sleeper zombies in every house, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wordwaster Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Have you even tried it? That is how it already works. You do not "lose all attributes" or "lose all progress". That's all hyperbole. You cannot lose more than 1/2 of a maxed-for-your-level attribute. um...yeah, it will take you down to level 1 if you are at level 2. that is "all" progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 um...yeah, it will take you down to level 1 if you are at level 2. that is "all" progress. No, it does not affect any of the early T1 perks. Hyperbole is ineffective if it can be fact-checked that easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juliet_Capulet Posted November 21, 2018 Share Posted November 21, 2018 Players have to get used to any penalty at all because A16 had none. =) If A16 had a death penalty, I still wouldn't have liked it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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