When will the game be released II?

[sandor87a]

If the fun pimps are too bad in terms of estimates then they have a serious problem.

Even programmers would have to be able to give correct estimates, first it was July / August .... then only August and the good conclusion then it is ready when it is ready?

 

Where are all the people who have been recruited?

 

I'm not a madman or a freak but getting half-hearted statements and estimates is trash.

 

and seriously I prefer to play a faulty Alpa 17 as if I could not play at all. Maybe you will find even faster unknown errors and can work with them immediately.

 

And then the thing with the streamers where I wonder what that should .... Can TFP not advertise in another way?

 

 

Written with google translator so do not complain and make the best of it: P

[Aldranon]

Even the best project leads have a hard time "guessing" when everything will be ready.

 

The best advise I got was to take the most outrageous calculation of time needed... then double it.

[TylerDB]

snip

 

You say this now, but if they shipped a halfassed version of a17, everyone would be up in arms qbout having to start over 300 times because of bugs. Not only that the forum bug reports just become a mosh pit of the same stupid reports over and over again, thus making their new job reading through them all trying to find something they don’t already know about and no one ever reports properly. They have a template for what they want to see and they get “game crashed when i looked down.” Also the game was delayed not because they can’t estimate, they decided to do a unity update now rather than later for performance sake, and some new issues arose from that. It’s not far out, but they just need their time, be patient.

[Matt 1977]

Well i had the Creating player bug in A16..... so i for one am glad they are taking care not to release like 16.

 

Gave me a chance to play Fennc Mod which im enjoying a lot.

[meganoth]

If the fun pimps are too bad in terms of estimates then they have a serious problem.

 

The only serious problem is on your side, I haven't seen any signs of impatience by the devs.

 

Even programmers would have to be able to give correct estimates, first it was July / August .... then only August and the good conclusion then it is ready when it is ready?

 

Well, I worked as a programmer and my estimates were never correct.

 

Where are all the people who have been recruited?

 

In the graphics design department, probably working on lighting

 

And then the thing with the streamers where I wonder what that should .... Can TFP not advertise in another way?

 

Really serious now: streamers and youtubers seem to be one of the best advertisement sources anyone could get in gaming. My own opinion of these schoolroom-clowns is very low, but they definitely are a big factor now.

[Red Eagle LXIX]

Even the best project leads have a hard time "guessing" when everything will be ready.

 

The best advise I got was to take the most outrageous calculation of time needed... then double it.

 

http://wiki.c2.com/?ScottyFactor

[Aldranon]

http://wiki.c2.com/?ScottyFactor

 

Man, I miss Star Trek, they were all so professional.

 

[DaVegaNL]

Yeah, TFP are notoriously bad at estimating how long things take. Which is okay, if it's the first two or three times it happens.

 

Plus a lot of people assume that a longer development times equals a better (more bug-free) product. That's a big assumption.

[Faskar]

If the fun pimps are too bad in terms of estimates then they have a serious problem.

Even programmers would have to be able to give correct estimates, first it was July / August .... then only August and the good conclusion then it is ready when it is ready?

 

Where are all the people who have been recruited?

 

I'm not a madman or a freak but getting half-hearted statements and estimates is trash.

 

and seriously I prefer to play a faulty Alpa 17 as if I could not play at all. Maybe you will find even faster unknown errors and can work with them immediately.

 

And then the thing with the streamers where I wonder what that should .... Can TFP not advertise in another way?

 

 

Written with google translator so do not complain and make the best of it: P

 

I've been a programmer for the past 22 years and I still give wrong estimates. The past 3 years I never gave an estimate anymore and I always say "it's done when it's done". Believe, it is really hard to estimate in software development and most of the time it is just guesses. And believe, sometimes hiring more people ADD to the deadline instead of shortening it, because of onboarding, training, management, etc.

 

TFP is doing an amazing work, and since it is just a game (and nothing something important that I need for my life), I'm more than happy to just wait for the release (specially that I know how hard it is to develop a game and fix stuff).

[SnowDog1942]

Yeah, TFP are notoriously bad at estimating how long things take. Which is okay, if it's the first two or three times it happens.

 

Plus a lot of people assume that a longer development times equals a better (more bug-free) product. That's a big assumption.

 

But with more development time you do get more big game changing content like bandits, wait, not bandits - I meant better lighting.

[En_Dotter]

... And believe, sometimes hiring more people ADD to the deadline instead of shortening it...

 

I gotta say one thing about this from my own experience as a game dev and a programmer: What one programmer can do in one month, two can maybe do the same in two months.

 

Anyway, estimates are usually given with 50% extra time, which is never enough. Im not defending pimps, since i have a lot of negative views about 7d2d development (i have positives too, dont get me wrong), but estimates are usually waaaay off...

[Aldranon]

Getting new people "Up to speed" can take up to six months, depending on their skills. Also, everyone is working at home... What I have found is only very exceptional people will work just as hard at home as they do at the office. Some even work harder, because they treat it like a gift.

[spacepiggio]

there is the quote of you saying that

 

Hard to Vote properly when Sep. & Oct. isn't on the List...

[spacepiggio]

The Release Date Saga in a Nut Shell

Long, long ago, in an Alpha far, far away, there was this town called Navesgane. Mayor M.M. promised all the Citizens of Navesgane a Brand New World on a certain date, (This Date Was Not Carved In Stone, Tentative) & when Mayor MM did not keep his (Not Carved In Stone) Promise 80% of the citizens went Mad & turned into Z's & tried to Devour Poor Mayor M.M.. (20% were Fan-Boy's & just watched the Scene in Horror)

 

The Moral of the Story is:

Quit giving Release Dates

[spacepiggio]

Nah, give MM a break, guys. It's the first time he gave a tentative release date, and missed it by a long shot ... this alpha.

 

I am sticking up for him if you read it right, unless you thought I was part of the 80% that went Mad with Mad Mole Derangement Syndrome because he missed a Released Date by a couple weeks long, long, ago & all along he said it was a Tentative or Estimate the 80% took it the wrong way.

 

We have been repeating this process ever since witch some would say was a little insane to keep doing it.

 

I say just release Videos of the progress now & then & surprise us with an Update When It Is Done.

 

I also think we should wait until Beta for giving Streamers Early Access, the Players have made the Game Popular not the Streamers. I have Gifted more Games than they have just like other Players I know, we are the Fan Base.

 

Fan Boys Rule

[beerfly]

..unless you thought I was part of the 80% that went Mad with Mad Mole Derangement Syndrome because he missed a Released Date by a couple weeks long, long, ago

 

They are no more than a few people that actually raged about that. 80% of us really appreciate their effords and accept the fate that we all have to wait. Pimps proved themselves every alpha, so this one is not different. Time is irrelevant.

[Xeen]

I also think we should wait until Beta for giving Streamers Early Access, the Players have made the Game Popular not the Streamers. I have Gifted more Games than they have just like other Players I know, we are the Fan Base.

 

Fan Boys Rule

 

Streamers play a part in the process, we all have our favorites and they serve a purpose, you can relax and watch someone else play the game and possibly get some new ideas but specifically in this case they serve to get the word out that the new Alpha is ready and they fuel the hype train.

[RavenGT]

I've been a programmer for the past 22 years and I still give wrong estimates. The past 3 years I never gave an estimate anymore and I always say "it's done when it's done". Believe, it is really hard to estimate in software development and most of the time it is just guesses. And believe, sometimes hiring more people ADD to the deadline instead of shortening it, because of onboarding, training, management, etc.

 

TFP is doing an amazing work, and since it is just a game (and nothing something important that I need for my life), I'm more than happy to just wait for the release (specially that I know how hard it is to develop a game and fix stuff).

 

LOL Where the heck do you work? If my developers told me that their work 'would be done when it's done', both me and my project manager would sit them down for a serious chat. That kind of stuff doesn't fly in the competitive business world. I'd argue that the gaming industry is a bit more forgiving especially for small studios, but deadlines and goals are a good thing, and saying you have no clue when your work will be done is indicative of management issues.

 

The above is my experience in the civilian and military world. Try telling some full bird that you have no idea when you'll accomplish X and prepare your ♥♥♥♥ for a boot.

 

Note that the above statement isn't in any way a reflection on my thoughts in regards to TFP/7DTD. It's a general principle and each specific case warrants its own analysis.

[Gnomaana]

I also think we should wait until Beta for giving Streamers Early Access, the Players have made the Game Popular not the Streamers. I have Gifted more Games than they have just like other Players I know, we are the Fan Base.

 

Get you a job in the marketing department at a gaming company, work your way to the top of marketing and you can then decide to forgo the free advertising streamers offer games if you want. You should be fired for turning down free advertising but go for it.

 

 

This has been said, I don't know, TWO HUNDRED TIMES. TFP will NOT release an experimental build to the general public on a Friday. The bug reports by Monday morning would be awful to go through. So the streamers getting it on a Friday and us on a Monday IN NO WAY affects us. NONE. You do know the internal testers already get to play A17, right? I mean it wasn't them that made this game popular it was us why do they get it early? *rant over*

[meganoth]

That kind of stuff doesn't fly in the competitive business world. I'd argue that the gaming industry is a bit more forgiving especially for small studios, but deadlines and goals are a good thing

 

In the business world the variable is the quality and finish of the code instead of the time. You surely know the principle that ends with "Pick two" . Yes, you can always finish on time but that doesn't necessarily mean it is what the customer expected or wanted. Lots of times the code might fullfill any item in the specification sheet but is practically an unusable pile of ****. I've heard of some projects where the customer returned to the previous software suite after testing the new software in practice.

 

Deadlines and goals are only partly a good thing for a game developer IMHO. Yes, they can stop feature creep and some developers with no sense of money probably need someone to stop them (Double Fine and Peter Molineux come to mind). Deadlines also work well when you know what game you want to produce in detail.

 

But games need a of process of experimentation as soon as they get away from the true and tried. The goal might be a weapon system or a weather system, but nobody can really know beforehand whether the first, second or fifth version really results in anything fun to play. If you have time or money contraints you have to take the second version whether it works or not, a more relaxed development can shoot for the version that really works.

[RavenGT]

SNIP.

 

I agree with you, and I understand that the gaming industry has its own tolerances for goals. However, a developer who says "I have no clue" as to when their work will be done is probably working with a catastrophic failure that was unavoidable or unforeseen... Or they aren't as strong of a developer and should seek guidance from those with more experience. This is also where development managers, project managers, and operations directors should provide advice/guidance too. Now, when there are regularly scheduled/expected releases, there should be a clear roadmap on what the goals are, who's responsible for them, and how to best attain them. Any modern system of development management (Agile, etc.) can address these issues as they change. Again - none of the above is meant to pertain to the situation with TFP

[Reth]

I wonder how many people chose August 28 because they wanted to participate and it was the latest date available? I know did

[meganoth]

I agree with you, and I understand that the gaming industry has its own tolerances for goals. However, a developer who says "I have no clue" as to when their work will be done is probably working with a catastrophic failure that was unavoidable or unforeseen... Or they aren't as strong of a developer and should seek guidance from those with more experience. This is also where development managers, project managers, and operations directors should provide advice/guidance too. Now, when there are regularly scheduled/expected releases, there should be a clear roadmap on what the goals are, who's responsible for them, and how to best attain them. Any modern system of development management (Agile, etc.) can address these issues as they change. Again - none of the above is meant to pertain to the situation with TFP

 

Acknowledged. But I don't think Faskar meant "no clue" when he said "and I still give wrong estimates.". A wrong estimate is a wrong estimate whether it is a few days, weeks or many months. Internally even the best programmers still give wrong estimates on sufficiently complex problems, a project manager's job is to never let those infos reach the customer.

 

But (and I know you know this, it is for other readers) in the case of TFP there is no single customer with a defined specification sheet and a time limit. And there would be no need for the project or community manager to keep the customers ignorant of internal time tables were it not for people who don't know the difference between estimate and promise or give that estimate a relevance it clearly doesn't have for the developer himself.

 

I wonder how many people chose August 28 because they wanted to participate and it was the latest date available? I know did

 

91

[Wut]

Hey guys remember when this game was on Kickstarter 5 years ago? I betcha didn't think you'd be waiting for another "alpha" for an empty mod-platform game in August 2018.

[Chancer0076]

Hey guys remember when this game was on Kickstarter 5 years ago? I betcha didn't think you'd be waiting for another "alpha" for an empty mod-platform game in August 2018.

 

The game is only "empty" if your head is and you have no imagination, oooosh! Plenty of people find enjoyment in it (obligatory smilie)