Death2gnomes Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 It's still a hacky approach to require an external / 3rd party program. The most the player should be expected to do is clicking "I want that" in the Steam Workshop. They may need to be some way to force a different load order but even that could use an intelligent default when modders get to leave a load order preference in a file somewhere. Oblivion was a major headache to get the right load order...please make it simpler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldranon Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Wait, what? Since when? Since they became smart. I think I can use that against them, but I will need to wait and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gronk Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Gold star! I was waiting for someone to figure that out, since I'm not going to point out every little detail with how this stuff works. So no chance of a truly high-def texture pack? That's gonna annoy at least two people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 There we have an exploit. Keep popping up and down the ladder and the zombies will spend all of their time traveling between your wall and their mine, not actually having time to attack anything and giving you plenty of time to shoot them on the way. I think we are perceiving this in two different ways and it probably can't be resolved until we can actually get in there and play it and see whether the zombies can be gamed as you describe. I'm having a hard time understanding how you are shooting zombies that are outside your base while you are running up and down a ladder inside your base. And then where is your ladder? Against the near wall where the zombies are or in the middle of your base? If against the near wall the zombies at your far wall won't care about you going up and down and if in the middle then none of them will. Experimental is going to be full of exactly that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gronk Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 I think we are perceiving this in two different ways and it probably can't be resolved until we can actually get in there and play it and see whether the zombies can be gamed as you describe. I'm having a hard time understanding how you are shooting zombies that are outside your base while you are running up and down a ladder inside your base. And then where is your ladder? Against the near wall where the zombies are or in the middle of your base? If against the near wall the zombies at your far wall won't care about you going up and down and if in the middle then none of them will. Experimental is going to be full of exactly that. I usually have alternating thick and thin pillars which allow me to shoot through and collect loot relatively safely. There's also a ladder running through the middle of the base that runs from the basement to the roof. Yeah, I'll be interested to see how it works in practice after all of this speculation and supposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 So no chance of a truly high-def texture pack? That's gonna annoy at least two people. If we can find where the altas mapping is, I know a few people who are willing to make a larger atlas. Here is a small shot of the atlas: ...an here is what I /think/ is the mapping for brick in said atlas. The numbers would be coordinates, but I don't know how to apply them to the atlas. <uv id="7" x="0.004150391" y="0.004150391" w="0.04162598" h="0.04162598" blockw="3" blockh="3" color="0.281089,0.2328958,0.2147789" globaluv="True" material="stone" texture="brick.tga" /> ...but I'm sure it involves math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 pillars..... I'm not against that technique in and of itself. I just wish the gap between pillars didn't visually appear as though the zombies should be able to slip between them-- and yet they can't. I think they would be balanced better if there were a couple of smaller zombie types that could squeeze between them so you'd have to be on the lookout for that...putrid girl and the screamer chick for example-- or dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gronk Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 pillars..... I'm not against that technique in and of itself. I just wish the gap between pillars didn't visually appear as though the zombies should be able to slip between them-- and yet they can't. I think they would be balanced better if there were a couple of smaller zombie types that could squeeze between them so you'd have to be on the lookout for that...putrid girl and the screamer chick for example-- or dogs. Yep, the moment dogs can slip through that gap it'll be time for a design change. I'd use arrow slits but they're nowhere as useful in-game as they are in real life, if you put them on the "right" way around you haven't got enough ability to pan your weapon. Putting them on backwards is better, it funnels the zombies towards the gap although looks bloody weird for someone who has grown up around real castles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SittingDuck Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Are you talking about outsmarting Zombies? Seriously I don´t expect them to be super smart at all. But if I build a tunnel into a mountain with a big entrance and defences etc. ... I would realy like to see them take the entrance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cazmyr Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 pillars..... I'm not against that technique in and of itself. I just wish the gap between pillars didn't visually appear as though the zombies should be able to slip between them-- and yet they can't. I think they would be balanced better if there were a couple of smaller zombie types that could squeeze between them so you'd have to be on the lookout for that...putrid girl and the screamer chick for example-- or dogs. Agree completely. And I hope they can fit through them in the future. The pillar base and toothy are the 2 that IMO need to move on. And I hope that A17 will help that happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rassilon Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Ok, so im a complete Noob in IT/Programming Stuff, but is it that hard to expand the Atlas? Not skeptic, just trying to understand. IMO Both, the Building and exploring Aspect, would highly benefit from more Variety and more detailed Textures, so maybe TFP could invest some Ressources in this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faatal Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Reason I ask this, is I swear there were some exploit(ish) base build styles that used the Door targeting priority to essentially mess with Zombie AI and Pathing. I'm guessing no, or at the very best, minimal depth and overall health of depth checking at best could be implemented. Just wondering if we're reintroducing behavior that was "resolved" at one point. Not sure I get the scenario you describe, but doors are now the same as other blocks, they just are considered to have less health than they actually do. Depth is not exactly what it is doing. It is path of least resistance (lowest health) in all directions to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xrt Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Can I presume then, that doors now are "paintable"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guppycur Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 UV, take width/height of image * x y w h Thanks! Little more to it to convert to pixel coordinates in a paint program, but this let me crack the nut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roland Posted May 31, 2018 Author Share Posted May 31, 2018 Can I presume then, that doors now are "paintable"? He meant the same as other blocks in terms of targeting. There used to be an AI Task to break doors specifically as a priority. He probably got rid of that task and now they just follow the path of least resistance which also happens to be doors compared to other blocks. But they cannot be painted as of now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gronk Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Ok, so im a complete Noob in IT/Programming Stuff, but is it that hard to expand the Atlas? Not skeptic, just trying to understand. IMO Both, the Building and exploring Aspect, would highly benefit from more Variety and more detailed Textures, so maybe TFP could invest some Ressources in this ? Depending on how it's implemented you can have larger atlases but that suffers from the exponentially increasing resources associated with large textures, an atlas is simply a single texture that you use little chunks of. If you double the size of a texture you're actually using four times the system resources to hold it, you're doubling both width and height. In theory you can have a single atlas per texture and have 8k textures but having a single texture per atlas negates the advantage of using an atlas. - - - Updated - - - Thanks! Little more to it to convert to pixel coordinates in a paint program, but this let me crack the nut. Gimp has a feature to do this, a lot of people use it to make atlases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damocles Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Not sure I get the scenario you describe, but doors are now the same as other blocks, they just are considered to have less health than they actually do. Depth is not exactly what it is doing. It is path of least resistance (lowest health) in all directions to you. Hi, I have a question about the pathfinding: What is the cost of moving over an unobscured tile compared to breaking a block/door? Eg; at what point is walking tiles on open terrain (detour) have a higher cost than breaking a simple level 1 door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xrt Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 He meant the same as other blocks in terms of targeting. There used to be an AI Task to break doors specifically as a priority. He probably got rid of that task and now they just follow the path of least resistance which also happens to be doors compared to other blocks. But they cannot be painted as of now. Thanks Roland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4sheetzngeegles Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Pillars pillars..... I'm not against that technique in and of itself. I just wish the gap between pillars didn't visually appear as though the zombies should be able to slip between them-- and yet they can't. I think they would be balanced better if there were a couple of smaller zombie types that could squeeze between them so you'd have to be on the lookout for that...putrid girl and the screamer chick for example-- or dogs. Roland: For the pillar scenario is it possible to designate the pillars as a polygon vs a voxel? Because as you wrote a voxel is a complete 3X3 block with only the texture being visible to represent the pillar, but the remainder is still impenetrable. Or for pillars designate them as 1/4 1/3 1/2 voxel volume to free the air above and below. Referring back to one of the original builds the shutters and boards looked like polygon objects when they broke up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gronk Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Hi, I have a question about the pathfinding: What is the cost of moving over an unobscured tile compared to breaking a block/door? Eg; at what point is walking tiles on open terrain (detour) have a higher cost than breaking a simple level 1 door. Depends on the length of the detour and what the values are for the type of door. For example, let's say a wooden door has a value of five, a detour of four blocks or less would be taken. If the door has a value of twenty-five then a detour of twenty-four or less would be taken. Things get a little more complicated when you factor in diagonals which are worth roughly about 1.41 if memory serves. - - - Updated - - - Roland: For the pillar scenario is it possible to designate the pillars as a polygon vs a voxel? Because as you wrote a voxel is a complete 3X3 block with only the texture being visible to represent the pillar, but the remainder is still impenetrable. Or for pillars designate them as 1/4 1/3 1/2 voxel volume to free the air above and below. Referring back to one of the original builds the shutters and boards looked like polygon objects when they broke up. The collider for a pillar follows the same shape as the pillar, although it's placed on a square it's actually a cylinder for all intents and purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damocles Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Depends on the length of the detour and what the values are for the type of door. For example, let's say a wooden door has a value of five, a detour of four blocks or less would be taken. If the door has a value of twenty-five then a detour of twenty-four or less would be taken. Things get a little more complicated when you factor in diagonals which are worth roughly about 1.41 if memory serves. Hm, I actually thought the game does not use diagonals for the pathing (there are those edge cases then, having two blocks at the adjacent blocking, while the diagonal is free..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4sheetzngeegles Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 The Gronk: The collider for a pillar follows the same shape as the pillar, although it's placed on a square it's actually a cylinder for all intents and purposes. Okay that part I understand, But what confuses me is the volumetric calculation of a solid visible object in a voxel. I see it in my head as a lot of tightly packed cubes like a Rubik's. and the pillar is the shaded area the collider is the damage designator, but the non damage are is invisble yet unpassable because the block volume mathematically is still greater than 0. sort of like a long island iced tea as far as layer representation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gronk Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Okay that part I understand, But what confuses me is the volumetric calculation of a solid visible object in a voxel. I see it in my head as a lot of tightly packed cubes like a Rubik's. and the pillar is the shaded area the collider is the damage designator, but the non damage are is invisble yet unpassable because the block volume mathematically is still greater than 0. sort of like a long island iced tea as far as layer representation. Get your head away from the idea of sub-voxels, they would be far too resource intensive to implement. The collider is a cylinder in a very literal sense and has very little interaction with the underlying voxel engine. Once the pillar is placed the only real interaction between the pillar and the voxel engine is that once the pillar is destroyed the block it is placed inside can then have something else placed inside it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XCOUNTRY Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 The point of my original pathing post was not to complain about the digging/knock on the new AI; more to help me determine if I needed to spend the resources to upgrade my floors to the same material as my walls. As of now my walls remain stout and I paint less resource intensive floor blocks to match the walls, or make it "prettier" with the other paint options. Seems I will be fine continuing my normal play. I am always pleasantly surprised when an AI entity deviates from what I expect it to do. Definitely more immersive that way regardless of how "smart" I perceive the threat to be. To me unexpected=realistic. You can only plan for so much IRL. As always thank you Fataal for taking time to answer questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faatal Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Hm, I actually thought the game does not use diagonals for the pathing (there are those edge cases then, having two blocks at the adjacent blocking, while the diagonal is free..) It does not use diagonals in the path grid, but I make diagonals from the resulting path and then I do some random smoothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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