Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, KhaineGB said:

Have you seen how much I re-write the loot file???

HELL NO! It'd be worse actually

Ok, so... the new water system is finally approved! 

[KhaineGB]

...but that has nothing to do with jars...

EDIT: Ignore me. I had a brain derp. I thought you meant like... literal water blocks.

Edited July 24, 2022 by KhaineGB (see edit history)

[unholyjoe]

Just now, schwanz9000 said:

 

you know.... I heard that is a good game.

 

[Matt115]

8 minutes ago, unholyjoe said:

you know.... I heard that is a good game.

 

Yes  is good but change a lot... you know... first alphas was typical horror game. Now we have this.  And that's frustating as hell you know? i can  name game that was looking much difrent now that was looking in past and...  this is just depressing soo much.  this like... : you have WW2 diorama and after year you came back to your home and your brother added Cpt America and hydra soldiers and mechs... and he said that's still WW2 diorama

[Matt115]

@unholyjoe 

Good is don't mean this same. 

There is a books : Let me in. This book have two movie adaptapions - 1 norway 2 USA version : both have this same story , simliar scenrio just set in diffrent countries etc. 

Both  are good but diffrent so much.

 When i saw 7DTD first what i was thinking? F.e.a.r. , RE2, RE3, MC with horror mods, SCP contaiment breach ( this was typical horror game from 2013-2015  : dark , gore , hard )

( I can't upload screen idk why : Corpse - Official 7 Days to Die Wiki (fandom.com) this  link should first Corpse article). And i loved horrors so much in this period - and 7dtd was looking like typical horror game. And that's nothing bad - yes things were changing - DL1, fnaf etc. but this - creepy right , controversial etc. 

7dtd now just looks like... things from diffrent ways - new armors and guns models could be in Fallout or in Rage 2 , this same thing with  for example drone or turrets. And now  even lighting is less... horror like more like.... MC or ARK. 

Zombies looks like a little bit like for few diffrent games - normal zombie are fine, screamer could be in typical horror game and spider looks like KF2 (KF2 is parody) but you change wight looking like normal zombie. If normal and tough zombie were just zombie and rest was mutants - i woudn't complain. 

And what's the most painful thing? This game have this good gameplay but was change from typical dark horror  into  something like Fallout with zombies. This is sad as hell. 

If you have time check 7dtd A11 gameplay or play a little bit in this version, then check F.E.A.R , No more room in hell , l4d2 or RE2 ( old or new). Just looks on weapons, props, setting  etc. then play in A20 and then check fallout 3 , mad max 

 

but if you don't: 

 

 

Fallout 4 gun

 

 

7dtd

 

 

similiar right? So 7dtd is more similiar to fallout that to horror game

 

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

6 hours ago, KhaineGB said:

You're not SUPPOSED to be struggling at mid game+ . This feels like trying to artificially increase how long it takes for the player to be self sufficient based on feedback of people saying there's nothing to do at end game... so make it take longer to get there.

 

You've only just noticed? This has been one of my main issues with these ridiculous changes 😏

[Laz Man]

26 minutes ago, schwanz9000 said:

Yup! Uses the gas can, cloth, and oil bottle with blood moon morphing physics to turn itself into a flaming beer bottle. 😛

 

With the removal of glass jars, a new default armor has been created for the player character to explain where they all went...😅

 

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

6 hours ago, Matt115 said:

So... jar will be disappear after drinking water or not?

I assume the character eats the jar. 😁

 

 

 

Honestly, I have my doubts that this change will be well received by the players.

 

It does increase the survival factor in the game at the beginning, but people are already annoyed when it comes to having to harvest and replant their garden on a regular basis. Now they also have to set up a field of dew collectors and harvest them on a daily basis in order to have enough water to produce glue in larger quantities. Currently, in Horde Night, my primary weapon is a crossbow with exploding bolts. I use about 100 bolts per horde. That's 100 duct tape and therefore 100 glue every week.

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Roland]

7 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

That's 100 duct tape and therefore 100 glue every week.

 

That's 6 dew collectors dedicated to glue production in order to have enough within 6 days so you have an extra day to finish up the crafting. That's not exactly a herculean task. Maybe if you had to have 20 collectors that you had to harvest every day you might have a point about how tough it will be to mass produce 100 glue a week. But six?

[RipClaw]

12 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

That's 6 dew collectors dedicated to glue production in order to have enough within 6 days so you have an extra day to finish up the crafting. That's not exactly a herculean task. Maybe if you had to have 20 collectors that you had to harvest every day you might have a point about how tough it will be to mass produce 100 glue a week. But six?

Even 20 would not be a problem for me. I usually have a large garden with over 100 planters. I am therefore used to such repetitive tasks.

I was thinking more of the people who don't plant gardens because they find repetitive tasks annoying and would rather go scavenging all day.
 

[maxousara]

Ok i just give up this conversation just turn around and nobody read preview comments and the same question are back again again again and again.

 

How dew water works ???

 

Work with snow please ???

 

Jars in game in alpha 21 ???

 

 

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, PoloPoPo said:

Basically everyone here in any topic agreed on hydration being too easy throughout the game.

Really ? My guy complains all the time that he is dehydrated and his stamina goes down.

That's why I always have to carry a stack of tea around with me so that my character doesn't run out of steam.

[Jost Amman]

33 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Really ? My guy complains all the time that he is dehydrated and his stamina goes down.

That's why I always have to carry a stack of tea around with me so that my character doesn't run out of steam.

I don't think he meant it that way... he means everyone agrees that it's currently very easy to have enough water/drinks to hydrate yourself. 

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, BasicallyACat said:

We have a question about the new looting system with the bonuses to find things in the looter's skill tree.  Does this apply across a party, or is it only character by character?

 

Also, yeah, we don't get the idea of having no empty bottles anymore.  It just doesn't fit the gameworld logic.

 

It fits real world logic though. In real life you would not have hundreds of small jars to store water, you would have a large canteen or bottle (>= 2 liters surely) to hold the water. The small glass jars would be too heavy to carry for the amount of water they contain.

 

Now 7D2D does not simulate the canteen, it just assumes you have such a container in which to store water. The icon of water is just an icon, it represents one unit of water. Maybe they should replace that icon for a simple water drop icon, that would be less confusing for us oldtimers who have been trained to expect a jar.

 

Edited July 25, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[KhaineGB]

15 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

It fits real world logic though. In real life you would not have hundreds of small jars to store water, you would have a large canteen or bottle (>= 2 liters surely) to hold the water. The small glass jars would be too heavy to carry for the amount of water they contain.

 

Now 7D2D does not simulate the canteen, it just assumes you have such a container in which to store water. The icon of water is just an icon, it represents one unit of water. Maybe they replace that icon for a simple water drop icon, that would be less confusing for us oldtimers who have been trained to expect a jar.

 

Speak for yourself. I've got a cupboard full of jars and bottles.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Neminsis said:

As someone that regularly starts with iron gut I don't see how this change to water is going to make any difference to me early game since I'm already drinking the murk and eating the sandwiches anyway,

 

First change then is that it makes iron gut more valuable. In my group of players I know nobody who would "waste" any perk points on iron gut. 

 

1 hour ago, Neminsis said:

but the space required on a roof to put up a farm for glue production is going to limit the number of usable pois for bases pretty severely. 6 dew collectors at 3x3 takes up 54 square meters of space.  There's not a lot of roofs that can handle that and the 30 needed for a self-supporting farm.

 

This is a game where you can build anything you want. Either build more roof space or simply put them on a nearby building and build a gangway to it.

 

You seem to think that bases using existing POI's is a feature of the game instead of an accident of being a fully reconstructable world. I'm not sure TFP is 100% happy about the availability of bases that you can create with just a few simple blocks removed.

 

 

1 hour ago, Neminsis said:

From my perspective this is a pointless change beyond saving me that one inventory slot for empty jars.



 

 

[meganoth]

17 hours ago, Roland said:

 

It was removed at some point and is returning in A21. 

 

 

I know. The change was not to make it more complex. The change was made to remove water bottles. It just happens to make the process of having a renewable water source a bit more complex through the process of building a water farm over time as opposed to bringing home 10+ bottles on day one. I wasn't saying that TFP was trying to make a more complex game with this change.

 

And what are the reasons behind removing the water bottles then ? 

 

If the answer is removing an item without any real purpose, then the follow-up question would be whether the empty cans you get back from eating canned food have been removed as well?

 

 

17 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

100% agree and 100% am confused about why since Joel is such a Fallout fan. I know they started moving towards it and had plans to have radiation zones within biomes and even for individual POIs. I have no idea why nothing along those lines has materialized yet.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

Nevermind. I thought about it, and now I somehow doubt that it is even necessary to keep the game easy/accessible for players that are absolutely new to the game.

Is has been in early access for so long now, that one could think everybody who wants to play the game already has got it,

so when it is finally going gold, every newbie already has at least 1000hours of experience. 😀

 

Each year a new generation of players old enough to play 7D2D will emerge, an endless resource as long as we haven't made this planet unhabitable.

 

Only the aging of the game itself (along with alternative and newer games coming out) is the reason that this resource ultimately dries out.

 

[meilodasreh]

13 hours ago, schwanz9000 said:

You can now drink from bodies

OH MY GOD NOW THEY TURNED IT INTO A F... VAMPIRE GAME!!!!

13 hours ago, schwanz9000 said:

of water

nevermind

 

 

...yes, I recently tend to read the comments i reply to only very superficial. Just ask guppycur, he knows what i mean...

 

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

an endless resource as long as we haven't made this planet unhabitable.

7D2D going gold before the end of days confirmed!!!

Edited July 25, 2022 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[saltychipmunk]

5 hours ago, PoloPoPo said:

Basically everyone here in any topic agreed on hydration being too easy throughout the game.

TFP tries to address this issue and make hydration more of a challenge.

Everyone now: "I can't play this game without empty jars anymore".

 

Sorry?

 

Well the fundamental issue is that no matter what you do the concept of hunger and thirst is tedious. It is honestly the kind of thing players want to solve quickly so they can move on to other things. 

 

And honestly the games with best food and water systems  get there by either simplifying  the process  (dont starve) or downplaying it in favor of some other system (valheim)

 

In dont starve, you only need to worry about food  and even then food in general is pretty accessible  from the word go.  The interesting part is in how that game changes up that accessibility as the world around you changes between the seasons which forces the player into different activities.  Then again I would argue that the seasons in dont starve are the real show stealers. 

 

And in valheim starving to death is far less important than the crippling possibility of not having high enough health and stamina to survive conflict. 

 

In neither case is  the simple threat of dying of starvation or thirst really the point.  They are not worthy goals in of themselves.  

 

I would much rather the fun pimps focus  on making what you eat/ drink more impactful as a driving force  rather than focusing on a struggle to keep two bars topped off. 

 

but that is just my opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

1 minute ago, RipClaw said:

Tons is apparently a term we define differently. Currently, I consume about 100 duct tape per week just for exploding bolts. That's more than I get from looting.

 

Therefore, it is important for me to have a reliable source for glue. Not in the early game, but by day 21 it wouldn't be bad to have at least a limited self-sufficiency. As I understand it, this should not be a problem if you can build enough dew collectors.

 

Yeah it certainly isn’t a perfect fix because I know a high priority for me will be to have 3-5 water collectors per player. Ultimately we’ll be able to craft them.

All survival games get to a point where food/water is meaningless so it is to be expected.

Ive said before I really like how Valheim handles food/water. Your dude never dies from hung or thirst but does have few hit points & stamina. Different foods give different benefits like this gives more hit points, this gives more stamina, this gives a small mix of both.

You cannot shovel tons of food into your mouth in Valheim, I think you could eat three different things and those meals last a good amount of time so you need to plan out what balance of hit points and stamina you need.

Cool simple system that keeps different foods relevant.

[meganoth]

50 minutes ago, mstdv inc said:

Perhaps it makes sense to add a modification for dew collector, which will allow you to collect more water in order to balance the number of new workstations in relation to existing ones.Usually in my game I don't use more than 2 forges, 2 workbenches and 1 chemical station.A large farm of 10 or more dew collector would look strange.Modification (or several levels of it?) would reduce the number of new working combinations to 2-3 in a late game for one player.

Since most often I build my bases from scratch, I will have to spend a lot more construction resources and time to build the necessary base area, taking into account the large number of dew collector.This is unlikely to be convenient.

 

When I played as the farmer in our group in an A19 game last year I put the farm plots in a corner just ~10 meters away from the base. We used that base as a horde base for the first 5 hordes at least and I lost at most 2 plots if any at all.

 

We often put a farm near our crafting base and compared to the effort some others seem to make into securing their farm our losses are definitely negligible.

 

And if we dug holes and dropped the plots into those holes there would be even less chance of a loss, you would need to shoot policemen while they are standing on your plots to make that happen.

 

 

[POCKET951]

3 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Actually a little sad to hear those are gone.  I try to see how long I can go without having to create mines for materials based on either gathering materials through looting /scalvaging or just taking 1-2 layers off of the top (like the ore nodes on top or rocks, or digging two layers down in the ground).  Those cans were a nice source of scrap iron for me.

 

Though I can easily mod them back in if I want to.

 They were a source of iron, but I think in the grand scheme of things if you spent 10 minutes hitting iron with decent harvest perks you would make up any scrap iron deficit from all the cans you can no longer scrap

[BFT2020]

2 minutes ago, schwanz9000 said:

The dew collector is not the only way to get jars of water. Do you guys not quest or loot POI's? There is plenty of murky water out there to be found.

 

No, we focus on one change only and completely ignore all other aspects of the game  😉

 

I think someone mention bottlegate or jargate a few pages back  😁

Just now, POCKET951 said:

 They were a source of iron, but I think in the grand scheme of things if you spent 10 minutes hitting iron with decent harvest perks you would make up any scrap iron deficit from all the cans you can no longer scrap

 

I am on Day 16th with no harvest perks and have yet to use the pickaxes to harvest anything (just to break off the faucets in the POIs to melt down).  I know I can mine (and have done so in the past with some very elaborate mining), but in my more recent playthroughs I am trying to see how far I can go with just salvaging and buried supply quests (for clay in the forge).

 

When I get through my currently playthrough, I am going to mod those out (along with jars) to see what it will be like.  I won't have the dew collectors obviously, but I can always start giving myself the equivalent through CM to see how this goes.

 

I think I will be okay.  First it's lot less paper in bookcases, then they are removing jars.  Now I find out that empty cans are gone too.  It's a lot to take in, but I can be tough when A21 drops.

 

😁

[RipClaw]

36 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

When I get through my currently playthrough, I am going to mod those out (along with jars) to see what it will be like.  I won't have the dew collectors obviously, but I can always start giving myself the equivalent through CM to see how this goes.

A mod to create a dew collector should not be that hard to make. You just have to create a block that uses the game mechanics of the plants. The auto miner in the Apocalypse Now mod and the oil pumps in the Warzuk mod both work on this principle. The autominer uses a existing model and treat it like a plant. After a certain time the block is replaced with another block and in the inventory are the ressources.

 

This is the code from Warzuk Mod for the oil pump.

 

<block name="HDPumpJackE">
	<property name="UnlockedBy" value="HDPumpJackE Schematic"/>
	<property name="DescriptionKey" value="HDPJEDesc"/>
	<property name="Class" value="PlantGrowing"/>
	<property name="CustomIcon" value="HD Pump Jack" />
	<property name="Material" value="Mmetal"/>
	<property name="StabilitySupport" value="true"/>
	<property name="Model" value="#@modfolder:Resources/HD Pump Jack.unity3d?HD Pump Jack Empty.Prefab"/> <!-- Purchased From Unity With Donation Money & Licensed To War3zuk -->
	<property name="Shape" value="ModelEntity"/>
	<property name="MaxDamage" value="1000"/>
	<property name="MultiBlockDim" value="1,3,3"/>
	<property name="ImposterDontBlock" value="true"/>
	<property name="PlantGrowing.Next" value="HDPumpJackF"/>
	<property name="PlantGrowing.GrowthRate" value="20"/>
    <property name="PlantGrowing.IsRandom" value="false"/>
    <property name="PlantGrowing.FertileLevel" value="0"/>
    <property name="PlantGrowing.LightLevelGrow" value="0"/>
    <property name="PlantGrowing.LightLevelStay" value="0"/>
	<property name="Collide" value="melee,bullet,arrow,rocket"/>
	 <drop event="Destroy" name="HDPumpJackE" count="1" />
	 <drop event="Fall" name="scrapMetalPile" count="1" prob="0.75" stick_chance="1"/>
	<property class="RepairItems">
		<property name="resourceForgedIron" value="10"/>
	</property>
</block>

<block name="HDPumpJackF">
	<property name="CreativeMode" value="Dev"/>
	<property name="CustomIcon" value="HD Pump Jack" />
    <property name="Class" value="Loot" />
   	<property name="Material" value="Mmetal"/>
	<property name="Shape" value="ModelEntity" />
	<property name="Model" value="#@modfolder:Resources/HD Pump Jack.unity3d?HD Pump Jack Full.Prefab"/> <!-- Purchased From Unity With Donation Money & Licensed To War3zuk -->
	<property name="Collide" value="movement,rockets,sight,melee" />
	<property name="DisplayType" value="blockMulti" />
	<property name="MultiBlockDim" value="1,3,3"/>
    <property name="Collide" value="movement,rockets,sight,melee" />
    <property name="LootList" value="HDPumpJackF" />
    <drop event="Destroy" count="0"/>
	<drop event="Fall" name="scrapMetalPile" count="1" prob="0.75" stick_chance="1"/>
  <property name="DowngradeBlock" value="HDPumpJackE"/>
</block>

 

This is the code for the autominer in the Apocalypse Now mod

 

<block name="AutoMinerEmpty">
	<property name="Material" value="Mmetal"/>
	<property name="Shape" value="ModelEntity"/>
	<property name="Model" value="Entities/Industrial/controlPanelBase_01Prefab"/>
	<property name="Place" value="TowardsPlacerInverted"/>
	<property name="Path" value="solid"/>
	<property name="CustomIcon" value="controlPanelBase01"/>
	<property name="DescriptionKey" value="AutoMinerDesc"/>
	<property name="ImposterExchange" value="imposterBlock" param1="2"/>
	<property name="CanMobsSpawnOn" value="false"/>
	<property name="Class" value="PlantGrowing"/> 
	<property name="StabilitySupport" value="false"/>
	<property name="MaxDamage" value="5000"/>
	<property name="PlantGrowing.Next" value="AutoMinerFull"/> 
	<property name="PlantGrowing.GrowthRate" value="60"/>
	<property name="PlantGrowing.FertileLevel" value="0"/>
	<property name="PlantGrowing.IsRandom" value="false"/>
	<property name="PlantGrowing.LightLevelGrow" value="0"/>
	<property name="PlantGrowing.LightLevelStay" value="0"/>
	<property name="PlantGrowing.GrowIfAnythinOnTop" value="false"/>
	<property name="PlantGrowing.IsGrowOnTopEnabled" value="false"/>
	 <drop event="Fall" name="AutoMinerEmpty" count="1" prob="1"/>
	<property class="RepairItems">
		<property name="resourceScrapIron" value="10"/>
	</property>
	<drop event="Destroy" name="AutoMinerEmpty" count="1" />
	<property name="FilterTags" value="MC_building,SC_electrical"/>
	<property name="SortOrder1" value="70e3"/>
</block>

<block name="AutoMinerFull">
    <property name="CreativeMode" value="Dev"/>
	<property name="DisplayType" value="blockMulti" />
	<property name="Material" value="Mmetal"/>
	<property name="Shape" value="ModelEntity"/>
	<property name="Model" value="Entities/Industrial/controlPanelBase_02Prefab"/>
	<property name="CustomIconTint" value="141414"/>
	<property name="TintColor" value="20,20,20"/>
	<property name="UMA.Overlay0Tint" value="20,20,20"/>
	<property name="Place" value="TowardsPlacerInverted"/>
	<property name="Path" value="solid"/>
	<property name="Class" value="Loot" />
	<property name="LootList" value="AutoMinerFull" />
	<property name="ImposterExchange" value="imposterBlock" param1="2"/>
	<drop event="Destroy" name="AutoMinerEmpty" count="1" />
	<property class="RepairItems">
		<property name="resourceScrapIron" value="10"/>
	</property>
	<drop event="Fall" name="scrapMetalPile" count="1" prob="0.75" stick_chance="1"/>
	<property name="FilterTags" value="MC_building,SC_electrical"/>
	<property name="SortOrder1" value="70e3"/>
	<property name="DowngradeBlock" value="AutoMinerEmpty"/>
</block>
	

Edited July 25, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Capp00]

11 hours ago, Blake_ said:

Hi Capp00! You seem misunderstand the change. Nothing about the drink crafting has changed, except that there are no glass bottles anymore . You craft teas, coffees,  carry drinks and buy them and, on -rare occasions- find them on specific loot containers. The dew collector generates the old potable water, you take it and put it in the inventory, and you decide when to drink it. Same with the rest, minus the hindrance of the glass jar.

 

The dew collector does not , I repeat, does not directly replenish your drink bar. You take the "water unit with the icon of potable water in a jar" and then decide when to use it.

Gotcha gotcha.

 

I wasn't jumping to conclusions or flying off the handle. Just curious is all. Thanks for the further clarification.