Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Adam the Waster]

24 minutes ago, Dreyseth said:

 

Trader Joel is struggling to pay the bills; he always comes up a little short.
Secret Stash may be gone, but Trader Joel will do special deals under the table.
Trader Joel apears to be ahead, compared to the other traders.
Trader Joel is very wise; he tries to see things from different perspectives.
Trader Joel is a prominent advocate for Learn By Praying.

 

he a little shy

or giving @SnowDog1942 a good time

[Guppycur]

28 minutes ago, Riamus said:

As I mentioned yesterday, the game only represents getting better at something when talking about quality levels.  Everything else is a new skill.  So having LBD for quality levels could make sense but not for everything else.  The problem is that everyone would max their quality levels in a very short time, which is what they don't want.

 

 

Two quick points.  First, if someone has fun spam crafting what's the harm?

 

Second, you could introduce a high failure rate that scales down as you get better, so you're wasting materials.

 

...point is, there are ways to balance it, but nay sayers need to get their heads out of the a16 box.

 

LBD was implemented poorly, which is why it failed. 

 

...heck, the devs could learn by doing.

[Krougal]

So I really wasn't looking forward to this update at all, thought I was going to hate it, but I gotta admit I am really enjoying it!

I'm not thrilled with the magazines but they aren't as bad as I thought they were gonna be. Not thrilled with some of the more gamey stuff, but I think somewhere between A19 and A20 I just accepted it and moved on.

 

Like Guppycur said above me, LBD isn't necessarily bad but it was poorly implemented and instead of fixing it they opted to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" as seems to be par for the course around here.

 

The POIs as always keep getting better and better, serious kudos to the team that does them!

 

One huge gripe I have though, WTAF were y'all thinking with the entitygroups.xml ???

I can't figure out how to properly xpath what I want to do and went the brute force method of copying the entire file and modding it directly (which I hate to do) and even trying to do simple find/replace was serious effort. Like I'd have written a py script if I knew how much trouble it was going to be. I just wanted to remove a few mobs from hordes and tweak the vulture spawns, but the "simplified" file is a disaster to work with, not to mention how many  #!@*&% horde group gamestages do we really need?

 

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, Guppycur said:

 

Two quick points.  First, if someone has fun spam crafting what's the harm?

 

Second, you could introduce a high failure rate that scales down as you get better, so you're wasting materials.

 

...point is, there are ways to balance it, but nay sayers need to get their heads out of the a16 box.

 

LBD was implemented poorly, which is why it failed. 

 

...heck, the devs could learn by doing.

I never said there was anything wrong with people liking to spam craft stuff.  I said that some people like it and some people hate it.  Neither side is more right or wrong than the other.  It is entirely an opinion and therefore cannot be right or wrong.

 

Making it more annoying by wasting more resources isn't going to make it any more enjoyable for people who hate the process.  The process doesn't change by doing that.  It only makes you waste even more resources than you did previously.  Those who like the process might like that but that doesn't make it more likely to change people's minds about whether or not it is good.

 

LBD for crafting in every game I have seen has been implemented poorly.  I've yet to see any where it was not a grind.  If you like the grind, that is fine.  But if you don't, you aren't going to like LBD crafting.  It necessarily requires crafting a ton of stuff you have no need for and wasting resources to do so.

 

LBD is good for skills that you use regularly and not ones that are used for a single purpose occasionally.  Crafting is the latter unless you are playing a game where you are specifically a crafter (and likely merchant) and that is the actual intended role rather than a self-imposed role.  You will generally want to make only what you or your teammates need and unless forced to make other things or more things just to fulfill a LBD to make other things you want, you would have no reason to do so.

 

Maybe someone can give me a good reason why some people are so focused on LBD for crafting.  In what way does it actually benefit crafting?  I don't mean what makes you personally like it as that is an opinion that anyone can have regardless which side of the issue you are on.  I mean, what tangible benefit does it offer over other options?  Grinding isn't a benefit for a lot of people and can be a negative.  Immersion is iffy at best because you can absolutely learn to craft by reading instructions.  Balancing isn't a reason because that can be done with any system regardless whether or not TFP does a good job at it or not.  Speed at learning seems to be what a lot of people who want it are going for but there isn't any real reason why a game should offer a speed mode.  Games can be enjoyed without a fast track to the end of the game.  I am really curious what real benefit it offers.  And, to be clear, I'm not saying that the current magazine system is great.  I'm saying there are a variety of possible options that do not include LBD for crafting and one of those could be suggested instead of LBD and could get more support.  I personally could get behind another option more easily than LBD.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

You mean about Pluto being no planet? Yes, what a shame 😉

Why would Pluto be a planet? I don't get it. 

Spoiler

 

[4sheetzngeegles]

@Jost Amman

 

I understood the basics of the statement, when I quoted you i should have only used
the second comment. It was more of a self reflection. So many new aspects have been
added,changed and removed. I found myself focusing more on trying to use all the new
ideas and tools, and modes of play to more clearly understand some of the conversations.

 

But I realized that i wasn't actually doing what first drew me to the game. Simply surviving
and wandering through the wilderness. I like the views, landscapes and panoramas. The other
aspects are appendages or enhancements to make it a more well rounded game, "personal opinion"
But I love the root aspect of explore, and don't die.

 

From many of the conversations that I have read, I agree with you, the simple concept of
"just survive and enjoy the journey" has taken second place to all other modes of play. That
may be because the game has grown and will continue to because of the Pimp team breaking new
ground at an almost exponential rate.

 

When I read it, I realized that I had gone away from my own basic play.

[Javabean867]

On 8/3/2023 at 9:42 AM, Adam the Waster said:

Also I was thinking about this. 

 

Will animals get a New update. Again.  For alpha 22+? 

 

I know we got one on alpha 16 and 19 but bears, deer, boars, wolf's rabbits still look like playdoe. And the animations aren't as good as the zombie dogs 

 

I CAN'T WAIT for it to come to console! I get to play with my work homies 

 

As long as they don't get rid of the derpy deer head bobble as they walk I'll be happy.

[Guppycur]

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

I never said there was anything wrong with people liking to spam craft stuff.  I said that some people like it and some people hate it.  Neither side is more right or wrong than the other.  It is entirely an opinion and therefore cannot be right or wrong.

 

Making it more annoying by wasting more resources isn't going to make it any more enjoyable for people who hate the process.  The process doesn't change by doing that.  It only makes you waste even more resources than you did previously.  Those who like the process might like that but that doesn't make it more likely to change people's minds about whether or not it is good.

 

LBD for crafting in every game I have seen has been implemented poorly.  I've yet to see any where it was not a grind.  If you like the grind, that is fine.  But if you don't, you aren't going to like LBD crafting.  It necessarily requires crafting a ton of stuff you have no need for and wasting resources to do so.

 

LBD is good for skills that you use regularly and not ones that are used for a single purpose occasionally.  Crafting is the latter unless you are playing a game where you are specifically a crafter (and likely merchant) and that is the actual intended role rather than a self-imposed role.  You will generally want to make only what you or your teammates need and unless forced to make other things or more things just to fulfill a LBD to make other things you want, you would have no reason to do so.

 

Maybe someone can give me a good reason why some people are so focused on LBD for crafting.  In what way does it actually benefit crafting?  I don't mean what makes you personally like it as that is an opinion that anyone can have regardless which side of the issue you are on.  I mean, what tangible benefit does it offer over other options?  Grinding isn't a benefit for a lot of people and can be a negative.  Immersion is iffy at best because you can absolutely learn to craft by reading instructions.  Balancing isn't a reason because that can be done with any system regardless whether or not TFP does a good job at it or not.  Speed at learning seems to be what a lot of people who want it are going for but there isn't any real reason why a game should offer a speed mode.  Games can be enjoyed without a fast track to the end of the game.  I am really curious what real benefit it offers.  And, to be clear, I'm not saying that the current magazine system is great.  I'm saying there are a variety of possible options that do not include LBD for crafting and one of those could be suggested instead of LBD and could get more support.  I personally could get behind another option more easily than LBD.

 

Why not both?  Keep the magazines, let the spam crafters spam; hell add the ability to buy training from a trader.  

[Matt115]

5 hours ago, zztong said:

 

I don't think that's the whole story, or even the correct story. Yes, there is truth to "practice makes perfect" and "necessity is the mother in invention." But they're not the only sources of the information, techniques, and ideas that lead to improvement. People learn much more quickly as part of a community where they trade information, techniques, and ideas. Magazines and books would be really valuable in allowing our survivors to learn more quickly than just starting with medieval blacksmithy and reinventing centuries worth of wheels.

 

And Trade Schools do not involve extensive repetitive manufacture. They have lots of topics to cover. That said, a career machinist has lots of tricks of the trade that separate them from the fresh graduate. LBD certainly was part of that machinist's education to date.

 

But I don't think this is supposed to be a perfect simulation of education, but a game instead. To me, the best argument for mixing in some LBD beside the LBL approach is (1) the magazine points offer a decent enough system for accounting for an accumulation of knowledge, and (2) some LBD tasks would both give the player some agency and break up any monotony associated with collecting magazines alone.

to be honest : i would agree about that 5 years ago but after change 7DTD into Mad Max it's not such simple. looks like in this universe most thing go rusted for some reasons. 

So... such knowledge would be totaly useless. AWs-36 and SWT-38 story is good example : in short - Soviets wanted to make automatic rifle but barrels were not enough durability because of steel. Because there exist many variants of steel. And here similiar story - so informations from handbooks about modern weapons are totaly useless when you have medieval like tools. So you have to improves and check : this work this not , such pipes can be usefull this not etc. And... looks like this world is again similiar about community etc. you know - Mad Max mentality. So what you saying would have sense in Days gone or Metro yet here we have strange mix of fallout and Mad Max xd

LBD was good because there everything was useful - you swim ? increase perks, cook? again. you jump? again. So whatever you were doing it was useful. Now? not too much.

 

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, Guppycur said:

 

Why not both?  Keep the magazines, let the spam crafters spam; hell add the ability to buy training from a trader.  

I doubt that would be a good system to offer it multiple ways like that.  It would just be messy.

 

Buying training (LBL) is something I mentioned as an option that could be added, however.  But it would need to have very limited use and not add a way to level things already leveled through other means because money is extremely easy to amass.

[BFT2020]

6 hours ago, Krougal said:

One huge gripe I have though, WTAF were y'all thinking with the entitygroups.xml ???

I can't figure out how to properly xpath what I want to do and went the brute force method of copying the entire file and modding it directly (which I hate to do) and even trying to do simple find/replace was serious effort. Like I'd have written a py script if I knew how much trouble it was going to be. I just wanted to remove a few mobs from hordes and tweak the vulture spawns, but the "simplified" file is a disaster to work with, not to mention how many  #!@*&% horde group gamestages do we really need?

 

Go to the mods section, specifically tutorials & guides, go to the Xpath modding explanation thread, and go to page 28.  Spereii does an excellent job explaining the new entitygroups structure.

[Laz Man]

8 hours ago, Dreyseth said:

 

Trader Joel is struggling to pay the bills; he always comes up a little short.
Secret Stash may be gone, but Trader Joel will do special deals under the table.
Trader Joel apears to be ahead, compared to the other traders.
Trader Joel is very wise; he tries to see things from different perspectives.
Trader Joel is a prominent advocate for Learn By Praying.

 

 

He's probably reaching for his shotgun considering you walked up with a knife in your hand...🤔

[Guppycur]

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

I doubt that would be a good system to offer it multiple ways like that.  It would just be messy.

 

Buying training (LBL) is something I mentioned as an option that could be added, however.  But it would need to have very limited use and not add a way to level things already leveled through other means because money is extremely easy to amass.

I have a vehicle trader for a vehicle mod I use that "rents" a workbench in his shop for a limited time when you purchase a rental agreement; since it's a necessary workbench in the autoshop it becomes very useful until you can make your own.  Point is, there are cool things you can do if you try hard enough.

 

It's all on how they do things.  Messy was a16 and the learn steel by spamming stone axes.  It doesn't have to be that way.

 

@Adam the Waster 😉

 

[Krougal]

2 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Go to the mods section, specifically tutorials & guides, go to the Xpath modding explanation thread, and go to page 28.  Spereii does an excellent job explaining the new entitygroups structure.

 

Thanks once again old friend.

[Doomofman]

Air drops still broken in b15?

[meilodasreh]

should be fixed since b12

 

------------------------------------------

Fixed

• No airdrops in A21.1 b6

 

 

nothing known about b15, as you're the first one to bring up such a build

Edited August 5, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Doomofman]

5 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

should be fixed since b12

 

------------------------------------------

Fixed

• No airdrops in A21.1 b6

 

 

nothing known about b15, as you're the first one to bring up such a build

 

It appears b15 is the same as b14 (same patch notes anyway), I did eventually get an airdrop but at 19:00 which is odd. Maybe they've randomised the timing?

[Adam the Waster]

8 hours ago, Guppycur said:

 

 

@Adam the Waster 😉

 

Wrong guy but Damn look at them bones @Matt115

 

I love my crispy zombie tho

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Adam the Waster (see edit history)

[Adam the Waster]

14 hours ago, Javabean867 said:

As long as they don't get rid of the derpy deer head bobble as they walk I'll be happy.

This video reminded me of this comment lmao 

 

Zombie deer

 

 

[Guppycur]

31 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

Wrong guy but Damn look at them bones @Matt115

 

I love my crispy zombie tho

 

Adam, Matt... Same difference.

[Adam the Waster]

34 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Adam, Matt... Same difference.

I mean. Your not wrong lmao 🤣 

[meilodasreh]

2 hours ago, Doomofman said:

I did eventually get an airdrop but at 19:00 which is odd. Maybe they've randomised the timing?

Not sure, at least I can't find any more about airdrops in the patch notes besides the "fixed an issue with..." 🤔

But as you say it, I should have got an airdrop by now, and I can't remember having heard the plane...well was clearing higashi tower, so I might just have missed it, because it was during one of those "why is there this strangely calm passage with all these exhaust vent walls?-situations"😄

 

[q123]

4 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

nothing known about b15, as you're the first one to bring up such a build

 

my game is at b15 too

[Eduho]

Recibo la gota de agua sin problemas en la versión b15, es cierto que en la versión anterior no la recibí

[Matt115]

4 hours ago, Adam the Waster said:

Wrong guy but Damn look at them bones @Matt115

 

I love my crispy zombie tho

 

To be honest- such models could be perfect for corpses props