Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Uncle Al]

1 hour ago, Syphon583 said:

 

• Lastly, their comments regarding performance improvements make complete sense from a development standpoint. While we as players sometimes gripe about the poor performance in some cases, focusing on performance enhancements just does not make sense when systems and assets are still being finalized. That would likely result in wasted dev time and resources.

 

It's worth noting that Joel states they have a desired timeline for A21 release to tie in with external factors (I'm betting a dime to a dollar that's 'in time for the holidays and associated Steam sale' but he's not that specific) but they'll delay A21 release past that desired date if they cannot bring performance up to an acceptable level with the new features added in. His tone doesn't indicate they're having especial performance problems with the new content, just that this is standard practice for a deployable release (which it is).

 

It does highlight the 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' nature of optimising before feature lock, though. If they do too little, the game would be nigh unplayable on most systems. If they do too much, alphas would be coming out at a significantly slower rate than they currently do. Either way they get flak from vocal members of the community.

1 hour ago, SnowDog1942 said:

 

Im looking forward to the next 3 years as they get closer to gold

 

 

 

completely fine with me, honestly.

I'm guessing you'll only start demanding gold once working showers are in.

[Riamus]

I like the idea of the chunk reset timer, but am happy it is off by default on SP.  I don't mind it resetting cities after a while, but I don't want it to reset things I build or dig in the world.  I like to add things to the world to make it interesting and only being able to lock 2 things (using LCB and bedroll) isn't enough.  For example, in my current world, besides my base and horde base, I created a long tunnel through a large hill, paved it and cemented it and put a parking lot on the other side with picnic tables and an over look deck area with a sign before the tunnel saying REST AREA.  I also made a small camp area after digging a hole through a large boulder and making a  path through with sand to the road.  I plan to make something in a couple islands as well.  I'd hate if I wasn't able to do this without it resetting on me and default on is a good way to forget and lose everything you have done.  If it could be limited to only reset cities/towns, that might be okay, but still best having it off.

[SnowDog1942]

13 hours ago, Riamus said:

I like the idea of the chunk reset timer, but am happy it is off by default on SP.

 

Would u be unhappy if you had to select "off" from the menu f it was on by default?

[meganoth]

51 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

 

Would u be unhappy if you had to select "off" from the menu f it was on by default?

 

He is happy to not see hundreds of newbies cluttering the forum protesting that their mine vanished suddenly

[SnowDog1942]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

He is happy to not see hundreds of newbies cluttering the forum protesting that their mine vanished suddenly

 

Touche'

[Doomofman]

I wonder if the Chunk Reset feature is a byproduct of something else, for instance, a 'Clear Chunk' quest?

[jorbascrumps]

6 minutes ago, Doomofman said:

I wonder if the Chunk Reset feature is a byproduct of something else, for instance, a 'Clear Chunk' quest?

 

I don't believe so. Seems like it's simply a nice QoL for server owners and players.

[Doomofman]

56 minutes ago, jorbascrumps said:

 

I don't believe so. Seems like it's simply a nice QoL for server owners and players.

 

Well they can have the idea for free 😛

[JamesKirk]

On 11/1/2022 at 5:08 PM, meganoth said:

 

One big problem with water flowing naturally into open spaces is that someone would have to define for the now thousands of blocks how permeable they are for water in what direction. And it even can depend on what block is adjacent.

I.e. a plate would not allow water through the plate but past it. And a plate with a hole would act differently if another plate behind it had the hole at the same or a different place.

I think that could be simplified. If one can shoot through it, then water can also flow through.

[meilodasreh]

I guess the problem is primarily not about that/how water could flow, but more considering its overall amount in those cases.

 

If it flows into an adjacent block, will it leave the block it was in before? Will it split it half the amount (one half stays, one half flows)

Or does it "double up" and exist twice, one in the one block and one in the next?

How do you prevent long term that water doesn't fill up the whole map, or trickle away to bedrock and leave a complete dry map. 

 

Especially that example given by the devs ("there will be no waterfalls") is a good example for what I mean.

If water flows down, there has to be a certain given amount at the top side (lake or whatever).

When it flows over time, that lake would dry up and the lower landscape would be flooded.

It couldn't be refilled by for example rainstorm, because over time it would submerge the whole region.

So there would have to be a mechanism to tell the "bottom" water to disappear...but how to determine that/when/how without making it weird,

especially cause a player can dig down everywhere.

And it also can't flow down and also stay up in the lake, that would fill up the complete map (and create lots of exploits I guess)

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[POCKET951]

25 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

I guess the problem is primarily not about that/how water could flow, but more considering its overall amount in those cases.

 

If it flows into an adjacent block, will it leave the block it was in before? Will it split it half the amount (one half stays, one half flows)

Or does it "double up" and exist twice, one in the one block and one in the next?

How do you prevent long term that water doesn't fill up the whole map, or trickle away to bedrock and leave a complete dry map. 

 

Especially that example given by the devs ("there will be no waterfalls") is a good example for what I mean.

If water flows down, there has to be a certain given amount at the top side (lake or whatever).

When it flows over time, that lake would dry up and the lower landscape would be flooded.

It couldn't be refilled by for example rainstorm, because over time it would submerge the whole region.

So there would have to be a mechanism to tell the "bottom" water to disappear...but how to determine that/when/how without making it weird,

especially cause a player can dig down everywhere.

And it also can't flow down and also stay up in the lake, that would fill up the complete map (and create lots of exploits I guess)

 

 

 

 how does water work in minecraft? how do they get away with the way it works without causing any big performance hitches. water in that game atleast obeys the laws of gravity

[meganoth]

18 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

I guess the problem is primarily not about that/how water could flow, but more considering its overall amount in those cases.

 

If it flows into an adjacent block, will it leave the block it was in before? Will it split it half the amount (one half stays, one half flows)

Or does it "double up" and exist twice, one in the one block and one in the next?

How do you prevent long term that water doesn't fill up the whole map, or trickle away to bedrock and leave a complete dry map. 

 

Especially that example given by the devs ("there will be no waterfalls") is a good example for what I mean.

If water flows down, there has to be a certain given amount at the top side (lake or whatever).

When it flows over time, that lake would dry up and the lower landscape would be flooded.

It couldn't be refilled by for example rainstorm, because over time it would submerge the whole region.

So there would have to be a mechanism to tell the "bottom" water to disappear...but how to determine that/when/how without making it weird,

especially cause a player can dig down everywhere.

And it also can't flow down and also stay up in the lake, that would fill up the complete map (and create lots of exploits I guess)

 

 

 

 

Faatal said 1) water is finite and 2) "It flows into neighbor blocks that are marked to allow it, like into air blocks" and 3) "Water can fall"

 

Water will not drain to bedrock because full blocks like earth blocks will not be marked to allow water to flow into it.

 

As water is finite and flows into neighbor blocks it will only leave the block it was in if there are no partly filled blocks available. Water would just be defined by one bit and essentially a block would be fully water filled or not.

 

But I would guess that water is at least 2 or 3 bits and therefore would have 3 or even 7 water levels so you can have water flowing naturally and with less blockiness into neighboring blocks.

 

I think that would be a good question to @faatal : How many bits in a block are reserved for water level or is it only 1 bit (on/off) ?

2 minutes ago, POCKET951 said:

 how does water work in minecraft? how do they get away with the way it works without causing any big performance hitches. water in that game atleast obeys the laws of gravity

 

It does in 7D2D as well (in principle), but very slowly and often with blocks not getting updated. Just like the SI of buildings where often blocks stay floating

 

[meilodasreh]

that cool "easteregg" POI at the southernmost edge of the navezgane map has some nice outside landscape with cascading water, which does a really good job of "simulating" a flowing river if you ask me.

[Riamus]

6 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said:

 

Would u be unhappy if you had to select "off" from the menu f it was on by default?

Actually, yes.  If I start as new game and forget to turn it off, then I'm unlikely to realize it is on until something disappears and by then it is too late unless I made a recent backup.  Having it off by default  prevents accidentally leaving it on.

[meilodasreh]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

It does in 7D2D as well (in principle), but very slowly and often with blocks not getting updated. Just like the SI of buildings where often blocks stay floating

It definitely does.

Learned that the hard way btw.

First played DF and put a bunch of raincatchers on top of my base (was the "present box POI"), because I assumed those would have either an "empty" or "filled" state and then I can get some murky water out of it to "reset" it to empty.

The amount of overflow messed up the whole base.

I could literally swim up to the rooftop like 20blocks from ground (using the totally submerged ladder was still faster tho) 😅

[Jinx_DG]

2 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

that cool "easteregg" POI at the southernmost edge of the navezgane map has some nice outside landscape with cascading water, which does a really good job of "simulating" a flowing river if you ask me.

Do you have a pic of that poi? I haven't played Nav since I first bought the game and not familiar with the map at all. 

[wolfbain5]

game dev idea, a cross between 7 days to die and no man's sky

[faatal]

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Faatal said 1) water is finite and 2) "It flows into neighbor blocks that are marked to allow it, like into air blocks" and 3) "Water can fall"

 

Water will not drain to bedrock because full blocks like earth blocks will not be marked to allow water to flow into it.

 

As water is finite and flows into neighbor blocks it will only leave the block it was in if there are no partly filled blocks available. Water would just be defined by one bit and essentially a block would be fully water filled or not.

 

But I would guess that water is at least 2 or 3 bits and therefore would have 3 or even 7 water levels so you can have water flowing naturally and with less blockiness into neighboring blocks.

 

I think that would be a good question to @faatal : How many bits in a block are reserved for water level or is it only 1 bit (on/off) ?

 

It does in 7D2D as well (in principle), but very slowly and often with blocks not getting updated. Just like the SI of buildings where often blocks stay floating

 

The water voxel is 16 bits. It is a mass value. Water and blocks can both be in a voxel. Water looks at blocks to see if it can flow through. Rotation/shape of blocks is not a consideration as it would be complex and possibly very slow.

On 10/30/2022 at 8:30 AM, Games'n'Grumble said:

Do I understand correctly that you can enable this function in SP, and it will work almost like a loot update function, but for chunks? Does this mean that the updated chunks will be unloaded from the system memory and will be generated anew (trees, nests, stones, etc., except POI) when the player comes there, facilitating the computer's work?

This will remove the chunk's data and when you visit it again, it is recreated as it was before. Some parts may randomize, like grass, but parts like POIs should come back the same. This will reduce save game sizes, which is actually needed for console, as our worlds can get huge and max out your save space.

 

This feature will be off by default in all cases. Safer than having players getting areas reset for no apparent reason.

[faatal]

On 10/31/2022 at 6:40 AM, Annihilatorza said:

Hi @faatal

 

What are you working on currently?

 

You mentioned that water won't flow into other blocks like Minecraft does, is that for performance reasons or just a limitation of the engine?

 

Would flowing water be a goal for the future?

Lots of things, mostly bugs. Currently POI imposter flickering between road paint vs the block below it, which probably started from the console guys reducing many vertex positions from 32 to 16 bits to save memory. The blocks below don't even need to be there, so fixing it is also an optimization. Console has tight memory constraints, so they are working hard to bring that down, which will also bring PC mem use down too.

On 10/29/2022 at 6:37 PM, Matt115 said:

Chances about bandits in A21 are... pretty low😔

Basically 0% chance at this point. I'm putting my efforts towards must-fixes, before we even start the MF list. Also various features that are not quite done, and code changes to support balancing changes as people who are play testing discover issues.

[faatal]

On 11/2/2022 at 3:01 PM, Syphon583 said:

• One of those QoL changes (again, sounded like it is coming for A21, but I could be wrong) is an update to the UI. Rick mentioned a graphic designer wsa working on that (as a side note, I hope by graphic designer, he meant UX designer. Two very different things. Whoever it is, hopefully they have experience in UX) Regardless, I think most players would agree this is an area that needs some love.
• Lastly, their comments regarding performance improvements make complete sense from a development standpoint. While we as players sometimes gripe about the poor performance in some cases, focusing on performance enhancements just does not make sense when systems and assets are still being finalized. That would likely result in wasted dev time and resources.

A21 does not have any big UI changes. There are a few smaller changes here and there.

 

The game has many optimizations already in it or it would be running at something like 5 FPS. A complex game with no optimizations would be unplayable. The goal is to continue adding optimizations to what has already been done.

[khzmusik]

1 hour ago, faatal said:

 

Basically 0% chance at this point. I'm putting my efforts towards must-fixes, before we even start the MF list. Also various features that are not quite done, and code changes to support balancing changes as people who are play testing discover issues.

 

That's a pity. I know lots of people are looking forward to NPCs being in the game.

 

Out of curiosity, is the in-progress bandit code going to be shipped with the alpha, just disabled/unused? Or is all the work in a feature branch that won't even get merged into the A21 branch?

 

I'm asking on behalf of modders who may or may not be myself.  

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, faatal said:

Basically 0% chance at this point. I'm putting my efforts towards must-fixes, before we even start the MF list. Also various features that are not quite done, and code changes to support balancing changes as people who are play testing discover issues.

While I understand that shipping incomplete/buggy bandits is a no-go for "professional" reasons, I also think that you're all missing an opportunity for early feedback on what actually is ready. So, unless you're in a completely draft phase of development for the bandit AI, I would advise Rick, Joel and everyone in the team, to reconsider adding at least some basic wilderness spawning for bandits.

 

This way you would have early feedback on how players like/dislike the NPCs (from a graphical/looks perspective), if players like the animations and how throwing in bandits along with zombies feels for most players.

 

Thanks 

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, faatal said:

The water voxel is 16 bits. It is a mass value. Water and blocks can both be in a voxel. Water looks at blocks to see if it can flow through. Rotation/shape of blocks is not a consideration as it would be complex and possibly very slow.

 

Thanks. I infer from this that blocks actually have a variable byte size, didn't know that.

 

Concerning the flow through: Whether a block shape has that bit set should be shown by background color in the shape UI !! For water and for shooting through.

 

Builders need to know bullet and to a lesser extent water permeability. And now that we have thousands of blocks shapes nobody knows anymore.

 

[Doomofman]

10 hours ago, faatal said:

Lots of things, mostly bugs. Currently POI imposter flickering between road paint vs the block below it, which probably started from the console guys reducing many vertex positions from 32 to 16 bits to save memory. The blocks below don't even need to be there, so fixing it is also an optimization. Console has tight memory constraints, so they are working hard to bring that down, which will also bring PC mem use down too.

 

Interesting, so the work the console team are doing might bring more optimizations to the PC version that are required for console?

[Guppycur]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Thanks. I infer from this that blocks actually have a variable byte size, didn't know that.

 

Concerning the flow through: Whether a block shape has that bit set should be shown by background color in the shape UI !! For water and for shooting through.

 

Builders need to know bullet and to a lesser extent water permeability. And now that we have thousands of blocks shapes nobody knows anymore.

 

Good idea, but it would be ugly.  How about it uses that different icon atlas only in the prefab editor.