Do you max out?

[Crater Creator]

I've been wondering how far people get in the character progression before they've had their fill of that game and start over.  Do you keep playing until you have enough skill points to unlock all levels of all skills, under every attribute?  Do you pick your attribute specialty, and max out that tree?  And is reaching max level(s) a major milestone that affects when you are 'finished,' or is it just something that can happen along the way as you pursue other goals?

 

 

For me, I can't help but hoard skill points.  I fear getting into situations where I'll really want to unlock something, but I won't have the points.  So I usually have quite a few in reserve.  It feels like too many points to spend to actually max out skills.  I don't need to spend them to survive, so it seems wasteful to spend as many points as it'd take to max out a skill.  I pace myself with what's good enough, and consequently I find myself finishing a game before I've unlocked many late-game skills.

 

For example, I get a bicycle from questing as soon as I can, but I know what I really want long term is a motorcycle.  Spending points to unlock the bicycle and minibike first, then, feels like wasting skill points: just a means to an end, that doesn't benefit me beyond getting a number closer to my actual goal.  There's not enough time/resources to bother using each vehicle in sequence, which is what it would take to appreciate each level of the skill.  Or maybe it's really cool to jump 1 or 2 meters higher, but I'll never know, because level 1 of Parkour is too meh, and there are too many other places to spend points.

 

I know I can crank up the XP gain.  But I don't want to just make the skill points cheaper, and spend a bunch of them on incremental increases.  I'd rather feel the difference with each skill point spent.  I think I'd enjoy the game more if skills were compressed in most cases, to have the same effects in 3 levels instead of 5.  It's not so much that I want to become more powerful sooner, as I want to get on to other interesting things I could spend skill points on sooner.

 

Anyway, that's how I'm feeling about the skill tree.  I'd like to hear how others feel.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Crater Creator (see edit history)

[playlessNamer]

In my last runs and in every run in the future i play with 2 skillpoints per level instead of 1. Feels like you bought premium membership instead of beeing a free2play player to avoid the very unfunny gap when you just farm xp only for xp. This way the game feels perfectly right for me. You can spend your coreskillpoints and some quality of life ones for free. You dont throw around with skillponts, doesnt feel rich but always when you need anything you can at least spend 1-3 levels in it.

The other way is to play 200% xp. Its the same time and grind reduce but your gamestage climbs faster. But i increase my difficulty by zombiespawnx12 modlet.

 

Its about time you have to spare to play videogames. I dont wanna cheat the game but i absolute dont want to spend time in the game just repeating tedious stuff just to increase numbers. For me the doubleskillpoints per level perfectly balance it out and it feels just right at any point of the game.

 

Edited March 6, 2022 by playlessNamer (see edit history)

[RyanX]

I tend to spend them as I get them because I'm usually bored with a seed by level 50 or so.  I've found enough schematics to make my base almost AFK during horde night.  Every point after that just seems to put icing on an already easy cake.  I will say that I do get the first extra jump height from parkour, especially since the fall damage mitigation helps early game.  I just put points into the INT tree for trading, forge efficiency, and a vehicle (I usually stop at motorcycle but sometimes I have the schems for the gyro).   I'll put points into heavy armor.  I sprinkle the rest of the points around for QoL stuff like sexy rex, mining, run and gun, etc.  I don't really put more than one point into any ranged weapons because they are good enough as is.

[ElDudorino]

I've never even filled out one skill tree, let alone all of them. Like playless, I'm usually 'done' around level 50 where I more or less feel like a god.

 

I definitely always take at least the first two levels of Parkour, though. I usually grab those early on then max it out after I've gotten my main skills out of the way. That skill changes the game more than any other skill for me.

[theFlu]

I mostly end a run around day 50, not necessarily by decision - often due to a patch, or the playthrough starts feeling stale. So I never have enough points for everything.

 

I mostly beeline the weapon-of-choice tree, often pretty strictly. Usually that means crafting a blue melee weapon for day 7 horde (60 min) and maybe branching out a bit after that. Nerd glasses for most of the time; if I have the points available at a suitable horde night, I might use the spec-glasses for one horde to get some early 5/5's.

 

The only real exception for beelining is if I play a base-day-one; then it's usually a mix of Str and Int and I'm kinda desperate for every single point..

All of that means I don't really have points to save; occasionally I might keep one for a forge or some such, but usually I'll just improvise if things aren't going too great with the RNG. There aren't that many hard decisions later in the game (where the skill points would be coming in too slow to warrant waiting). Or maybe rather; once I have my weapons maxed out, the game isn't really able to throw any curve balls after that; I'll be fine whatever I do with the points...

 

Since you mentioned Parkour, do try the 2/4, the 2,5m jumps are quite the game changer. Takes getting used to, but hopping fences is pretty fun. Plenty of good escapes all around, just too few threats to actually get to use them.

 

Vehicles; I only craft them in multi. For solo I get a motorbike from a trader, running around in my padded armor until that. The rest get crafted if I happen to acquire the recipes and have a good stack of steel.

[POCKET951]

I am a grinder. In my current alpha playthrough I am level 230-ish and day 150? I am going to keep going for the 500 game stage achievment, also that damn anvil schematic.

I haven't really done Tier5 Pois  yet even though I have unlocked them. I want to be able to get tier 5's from all 5 traders and have mini bases every where and an empire.

still also plenty of stuff I want to build. also learning how to make structures with the shape menu.

sitting on lootstage 300+ in the wilderness and I plan to keep on going. someone needs to test lategame looting afterall

[Ramethzer0]

 

18 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

I've been wondering how far people get in the character progression before they've had their fill of that game and start over.  Do you keep playing until you have enough skill points to unlock all levels of all skills, under every attribute?  Do you pick your attribute specialty, and max out that tree?  And is reaching max level(s) a major milestone that affects when you are 'finished,' or is it just something that can happen along the way as you pursue other goals?

 

 

I get about 2-3 points and then spend them.  In MP I typically get to level 150 ish before I feel the rest of the group feeling a little strained to keep playing.  I very much prefer early play.  The first 30-40 levels are usually the most exciting and challenging, particularly on warrior difficulty.   In a long game, I'm often maxing out at least 2 trait lines, and I tend to max out the necessary combat/stamina related perks.

 

Mostly, perking just happens as I grind out.

 

In a solo game, I rarely last past level 50.  I get bored easily if I'm just playing on my own.  I prefer playing with a group by far because I'm always thinking about them and what they need to get on.

[Sal]

Its very rare for me to play long enough to max out everything. I don't have a specific level on when/where I stop...... I just play it by feel. If it starts to feel like the game is getting too easy and I virtually have everything I need then I might bump up the difficulty and BM to every night and play for a little while, but ultimately that's just a sign to me that the game is getting boring and it's time to start over.

 

tl:dr I don't enjoy the game when I feel invincible. Basically, I only need roughly 30 skill points and I'm done when it gets to a point to where I'm just running around scrambling for ammo and nothing else. 

 

Perception: I rarely put any points into perception. The only sub perks I care about are lucky looter, demo, and MAYBE 1 point in salvage (depending on whether I can find 2 wrenches or not to build a workshop and have another to use, which is largely based on RNG), and even those are pretty much optional--they're nice perks to have but I can live without them. I don't care about the rest of the perks at all.

 

Strength: I only need strength to level 7 to get the most out of what I want from this tree and that only takes 9 points to do. L7 is enough to max out most of the useful perks in the tree; rex, miner, heavy armor, AND mother lode...AND it's enough to unlock L4 boomstick and pummel pete. That's enough for me. I use the club/bat alot so L4 pete helps a bunch, and shotguns are already OP as hell so L4 is more than enough. I prefer the club so I don't care for the sledge. Pack mule is utterly useless to me. I can easily and with regularity unlock 8 of the 18 slots by day 5 by being able to craft 3x clothing mods (on day 2) and either finding multiple armor pocket mods, or being given one as a quest reward. I don't care about master chef because food is easy to find and you can find the recipes fairly easily.

 

Fortitude: I only need fortitude to L5 and that only takes 5 points. Fortitude has alot of useful perks but the only ones I absolutely have to have are pain tolerance, healing, and machine gun (for horde night only) and I'm good with those being capped at level 3 each. Cardio is a good early game perk but I don't feel like I need it either. The rest of the perks are useless to me. Brawler....why? Sure, it's fun to try once in a while and the T5 steel knuckles are a beast, but that doesn't help me in early game when I could have a club that has a longer reach and a higher probability of hitting multiple targets with one swing.

 

Agility: I only need Agility to L7 and that only takes 9 points. It has alot of useful sub perks that are good to have but it's not a necessity for me. Run and gun, gunslinger, parkour, and flurry of blows are the only perks I'm interested in and two of those perks can be maxed out at L7 and parkour at 8--- but a parkour L3 instead of L4 parkour is more than enough for me.

 

Intellect: I only need Intellect to L6 and that only takes 7 points. I only care about better barter, daring, engineering, and grease monkey and L6 is enough is for me. It unlocks L3 barter, daring, and electrician. Which is enough to get more from quests and unlock a forge, bench, chem, and the motorcycle (which is all I ever use because it's slower than the 4x4 and I dont care about space and the gyro controls are a pain in the butt).

[pApA^LeGBa]

Playing since A8 (i think it was A8 when it released on steam) i only maxed out in one playtrough. That was A18 when we build our own village from scratch. In a normal playtrough things get way too easy far before even getting close to level 100. We are basically invincible once we reach like level 50.

 

I do get the hoarding part, i also do that after a few days. In the beginning i would like to, but i really need every single point in the first days. 

[ElCabong]

I usually start to get bored about when things begin to get easy. I have all the food I need, all the ammo, got the motorcycle, there's very little left to be done on my base, then I think of different ways I could spec out when I'm starting and I'll generally start a new game after that.

[Rotor]

I wonder at how many hours played did you guys get to the this point mentioned above? heh.

 

For me maxing it, at the moment, entails getting past day 21...and so far the only thing I've been able to build on any of my plays is a forge hehe.  Well, besides the initial horde base, and base weapons, tools :).

[Sal]

2 hours ago, Rotor said:

I wonder at how many hours played did you guys get to the this point mentioned above? heh.

I can't speak for everyone, but I think alot of us have been playing this game for years and have racked up over 1000 hours.  And it does get easier the longer you play it, just like all games do. The first time I played was A13 but I didn't really start playing it religiously until A14 and I have over 2500 hours (albeit some of this is leaving the game running in the background too because of real life--sometimes for hours at a time). 

 

 

17 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

That was A18 when we build our own village from scratch

Getting off-topic here, but I would love to do this with multiple people. I suck at building so I would def need some help from others. My wife and kids are worse than I am haha.

[Fenris]

I've never maxed out a character. I pick a play style for whatever character I create and just concentrate on skills that make sense for that character. That is kinda my way of roleplaying in the game. Like my M60 toting Heavy Armor character, he goes in loud, chopping through doors, walls, and whatever else gets in his way. Slaughtering zombies in a hail of gunfire, a steel club, and explosives (when I remember I have them). I maxed out agility for him as well, just for using a .44 magnum because I felt it fit the play style, but I'll never have him take a single point in From the Shadows or Parkour (even though I love that skill). When I feel like  I've maxed everything that fits that play style I stop leveling up .. which usually means I start a new character always planning on going back to the previous one, but never doing so. I do break the rule form time to time if I'm struggling when it comes to finding some crafting stations or vehicles I want.

Edited March 8, 2022 by Fenris (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

I've never gotten to the point where I maxed out my character level.  I leave EXP gain at 100% and don't do anything simply just to harvest XP.  By day 105, I tend to get bored with the current playthrough and start over.

[Scyris]

In Vanilla I am usually bored a bit after day 7-14, just isin't much to do really. I used to play A16 much longer, before we had the 5 stat gates to enjoy the game's skill system. Wasn't the reason they switched to 5 stats was to get rid of a level gate? to me they made the problem much worse. As instead of one gate (your char lv) you now have 5 gates, which is the varying stats. Kinda seems like 4-5 steps backwards not forwards to me. Kinda like how A21 is dumbing down the equipment system, multiple steps backwards instead of forwards imo.

 

I Loathe the stat system the vanilla game uses now, It needs to be redone. IMO all weapons should be under a one stat, then you have a survival stat, and maybe a 3rd for misc perks. Ilike using bows and pistols, but stealth was completly gutted in a20 with all the pois being mostly ambush sleeper volumes, and its not worth investing in a stat just for one weapon when it offers nothing else I want.

 

You wanna see a16.4 skill system done right? Play the darkness Falls mod. It fixes the vanilla a16.4 issues and improves on the skill system. Undead legacy mod is another good one that has a far better thought out skill system than vanilla ever had.

 

I may have 6000+ hours of 7 days to die, but I bet 80-90% of that or more, is in overhauls like darkness falls or Undead legacy.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Scyris (see edit history)

[Crater Creator]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.  It sounds like a lot of people get bored long before they run out of skills to get, even within an attribute.  I've also read repeatedly that many players enjoy starting over, because the early phase of the progression is most enjoyable.  Plus, TFP have said they're most interested in people's experience in the first few hours of playing.

 

So this sounds weird to say, but it seems like the skill tree is just deeper than necessary.  This thread has strengthened my belief that compressing all the same effects into 3 levels per skill instead of 5 would be better.  Maybe the attribute bonus could even be flipped on its head.  Instead of spending points in, say, Fortitude to unlock high levels of Survival and Recovery perks, it's spending the points on those individual skills that bumps up your headshot damage and dismember chance with fists and machine guns, as a side bonus for specializing in that tree.

 

Just as another example of where I'm coming from in the current game...  I had my core base set up, which uses a lot of barbed wire. After a few horde nights, I wanted to supplement the barbed wire with electric fences.  But I wasn't doing an Intellect build per se, so I needed to spend 6 skill points to get that one thing I wanted.  That's the kind of situation I run into: why I was keeping 5 points in reserve, and it still wasn't enough.

 

It also sure does feel like certain tracks are skewed towards different stages of the game.  Strength is most useful in the early game, when you don't have powered vehicles or motor tools yet, and stamina is a constant problem.  Intellect is most useful in the late game, when you have the basics covered and can focus on things like chemistry and more advanced base defenses.

 

P.S. I didn't mean to single out Parkour, but it's good to hear people like it. I may have to give it a shot some time.

 

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Crater Creator said:

So this sounds weird to say, but it seems like the skill tree is just deeper than necessary.  This thread has strengthened my belief that compressing all the same effects into 3 levels per skill instead of 5 would be better.

I think I disagree; if people are quitting the moment the chosen skill tree is full, making it shallower will just make people quit sooner, no? I don't see how it would solve much.

1 hour ago, Crater Creator said:

Instead of spending points in, say, Fortitude to unlock high levels of Survival and Recovery perks, it's spending the points on those individual skills that bumps up your headshot damage and dismember chance with fists and machine guns, as a side bonus for specializing in that tree.

That... well. The primary problem there is that Fortitude gives you headshot damage. At all. Much less on a specific weapon. Making "mystical metabolism" give you as much headshot damage as "how to grow plants" could be described as 'sane', but only in the case of the amount being 'zero'. Only in the current implementation of the game would that make any sense whatsoever, and if something is to be changed there... just don't make it even more @%$#ed, please.. pretty please? ..

 

For me, the best thing that would keep me going would be to "require" a base and upgrading and improving it constantly. At the moment, I end up 'living' in a random shoe box somewhere, with stash chests in front of traders. The base is a concentrated spot of crafting stations and wall safes, the smaller the better, as long as it can keep my stuff "spit-safe". The other shoe box (for the hordes) might be attached or not, but 90% of my time is spent questing and so the base doesn't matter one bit. Once I'm done with the quest tiers and the character progress, there is nothing I want; the only way to keep going from that point is to start building the base. That could be nice, but .. I don't care for the shoe box, since it's .. completely inconsequential to the game?

[POCKET951]

1 hour ago, Crater Creator said:

Thanks for the replies, everyone.  It sounds like a lot of people get bored long before they run out of skills to get, even within an attribute.  I've also read repeatedly that many players enjoy starting over, because the early phase of the progression is most enjoyable.  Plus, TFP have said they're most interested in people's experience in the first few hours of playing.

 

So this sounds weird to say, but it seems like the skill tree is just deeper than necessary.  This thread has strengthened my belief that compressing all the same effects into 3 levels per skill instead of 5 would be better.  Maybe the attribute bonus could even be flipped on its head.  Instead of spending points in, say, Fortitude to unlock high levels of Survival and Recovery perks, it's spending the points on those individual skills that bumps up your headshot damage and dismember chance with fists and machine guns, as a side bonus for specializing in that tree.

 

Just as another example of where I'm coming from in the current game...  I had my core base set up, which uses a lot of barbed wire. After a few horde nights, I wanted to supplement the barbed wire with electric fences.  But I wasn't doing an Intellect build per se, so I needed to spend 6 skill points to get that one thing I wanted.  That's the kind of situation I run into: why I was keeping 5 points in reserve, and it still wasn't enough.

 

It also sure does feel like certain tracks are skewed towards different stages of the game.  Strength is most useful in the early game, when you don't have powered vehicles or motor tools yet, and stamina is a constant problem.  Intellect is most useful in the late game, when you have the basics covered and can focus on things like chemistry and more advanced base defenses.

 

P.S. I didn't mean to single out Parkour, but it's good to hear people like it. I may have to give it a shot some time.

 

as someone who plays for super lategame I am not sure how I would feel about compressing the skill tree.

 

How ever I would really appreciate a setting outside of modifying the XML's where I could toggle a slider for skill points per level when making the game so I can play on 100% xp and feel like I have a chance of getting to the end of the tree in a reasonable amount of time. currently  I always play on 200% because 100%  feels far to grindy for what I want to achieve in a play through.

I play alot of RPG's like borderlands 3 or Path of exile. They are games you grind for gear, and much like those games I like to grind to find the best gear in this one. I want perfect or near perfect items and for me thats a good enough carrot of a stick as long as I can still feel like a god mowing down hordes of zombies.

even when I do get bored of it, theres a whole new shape menu to build and experiment with

I am probably part of small bracket (maybe 5-10%) of players who don't get bored playing past day 100? (just ballparking numbers since I don't have analatyics, I am sure TFP has a sense with gamespark though and I am sure they are gathering alot of data. 

on a side note it seems like all this data they get helps them make balance changes/tune the game

[Maharin]

I would definitely vote for more shallow skill trees, even if the trade-off is slower leveling (which can be adjusted with the experience modifier option).

 

I would also like them to have fewer skills, maybe by having some of them rolled up into the skill points of the primary stat.  So have carrying capacity, for instance, get better with more points in strength instead of an additional skill.  You get the idea.

[Catdaddy]

Our perception of how well the skill system fits into the gameplay loop will likely change once the end-game content is added.

 

If there were more to do, we might feel inspired to extend our game, which would allow us to see more of the skill tree.

 

I think it would be a mistake to spend more time tweaking skills at this point. Progression should be balanced around the finished product, otherwise we would be guessing as to how it would feel in the final game. 

[Rotor]

14 minutes ago, Catdaddy said:

Our perception of how well the skill system fits into the gameplay loop will likely change once the end-game content is added.

 

If there were more to do, we might feel inspired to extend our game, which would allow us to see more of the skill tree.

 

I think it would be a mistake to spend more time tweaking skills at this point. Progression should be balanced around the finished product, otherwise we would be guessing as to how it would feel in the final game. 

 

 

Not only that, in my noob opinion, as a new player I am not even close to getting anywhere.  

 

For you guys that have been playing for Eons and get to invincible in 3 weeks, I see how it would seem meh.

 

For me, I am cool the way it, maybe 1000 hours from I will feel different, although some of the gating is weird.

[canadianbluebeer]

I get bored once I can do the base that lets me snooze through horde night.

I do 90 min days, so by day 63 - 70 I can have that set up.

 

After that, it's just a matter of feeding the thing.

 

enough pts in demo for gunpowder stacks.

str enough to max mining/mother/heavy arm/sexrex

Fort goes up for max brawling, machinegun, healy, pain.

agi comes very late to the party. (when I want parkour)

Int goes to 9 + nerdy.  better barter, etc. gotta have the get 50% xp from traps.

 

60 dart traps, can set it to insane, 64 zeds for BM and... just pick off the stupid vultures that fly at the cage.

 

Takes a LOT of steel, cement and darts, but, zeds are not getting through the traps.

(with that much work, they shouldn't)

 

After a few horde nights, it comes down to "ok, now what?"

I usually try to get all the books done, even the ones I never ever use. (spears)

 

I dunno about shortening the trees though, would end up getting to end game somewhat sooner.

(although not by as much as you'd think. Still takes TIME to mine all the stuff and smelt it.

Finding all the books though, is RNG)

 

Now, the ability to have more than one profile and be able to swap'em.. that would be nice.

 

FO76 has that, and I do use it.  1 for going out and killing stuff, one for crafting/repairs etc.

WoW has had it for ages.

 

Fergeting elixer isn't the same.  That's a total restart on the skill trees.

 

[pahbi]

I dislike the skill system, its to long and drawn out, so I use a modlet to quickly level through it.

 

The skill system could use some consolidation.

 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

Now that i started to play Darkness Falls, i doubt i can go back to the vanilla system and actually enjoy it. It didn´t bother me before though, but now that i have seen how it could be, the vanilla system seems unecessary restrictive. I think going back would be kinda frustrating, even when i can see that there isn´t enough challenge to give us more freedom and it would mess with the balance a lot.

[eXSe]

I mostly give up by the time I get my strength and intellect up to max-ish (I do throw in a couple of things from other skill trees in there for good measure) because at that point I can be confident enough to come into any POI and not hear my teeth chattering and feel my butt clenching.

 

Things that keep me on my toesies are number of zombies. not their sponginess, so I try to facilitate my own danger and add to the game longevity by adding more spawns and bigger wandering hordes. It works to a degree, especially in the beginning stages of the playthrough.

 

I do feel that developers should give some love to the survival aspect of the game. For me, at least, current food system is just bad because it feels so "arcady" or dumbed down... especially with those candies that are just ridiculous (I do know that some people may love them and I'm not, by any means, asking for them to get taken out. Just saying that I do not use them.) What I'm trying to say is that I'm looking for some immersion and realism in the survival aspect of a survival game and this just doesn't have that feel.

 

Just spitballing here, but maybe Fun Pimps could borrow some survival aspects of Zomboid and cram it into 7D2D