Simple improvements that fun pimps should make to the firearms in 7d2d

[Nifty_games]

First off the firearms in 7d2d are fairly decent at this point, but there are a few things I would like to point out. 1 - The fact that some of the weapons are unrealistically shiny. Like the AK47 for example, AK's and most rifles IRL are not very shiny, they are usually a matt color but in 7d2d the AK47 and other weapons have a very shiny tint to them and personally it looks bad. I would suggest that the fun pimps make the weapons a more matt like color except for the chrome weapons like the 44 magnum. 2 - The lack of sights on weapons and the improper use of iron sights. In 7d2d the AK47 sight picture looks like this - https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/774041235622854657/883839343125467136/AKAim2.jpg. But the sight picture should look like this - https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/774041235622854657/883838552708882452/AKAim.png. I know it's not that big of a deal but it still bothers me. In my opinion I also think they should make iron sights more accurate and remove the screen crosshair when aiming weapons with iron sights. Weapons like the AK47 should also have a more "oomphy" and realistic recoil. And that's it, besides that the weapons in game are not half bad. So those are a few suggestions in my opinion that would make the firearms in 7d2d more immersive / realistic. Feel free to comment and tell me your opinion.

 

 

 

 

[geengaween]

The sounds are the main thing that need to be overhauled IMO. All the sounds make the guns feel underpowered, especially the pistol and AK47

[warmer]

anyone notice the blunderbuss sound is a mix of dog attack and a shotgun.

[Nifty_games]

54 minutes ago, warmer said:

anyone notice the blunderbuss sound is a mix of dog attack and a shotgun.

I have never noticed that... that is interesting

1 hour ago, geengaween said:

The sounds are the main thing that need to be overhauled IMO. All the sounds make the guns feel underpowered, especially the pistol and AK47

Yeah they should make the sounds deeper and louder

[unholyjoe]

1 hour ago, warmer said:

anyone notice the blunderbuss sound is a mix of dog attack and a shotgun.

no blunderbuss in a20 so not an issue and yes they were/are aware of it... i still think it was a joke... but no one admits it.

 

[Gazz]

Sight pictures are intentionally unrealistic in order to "work" in a game.

[Survager]

1 hour ago, Gazz said:

Sight pictures are intentionally unrealistic in order to "work" in a game.

 

Isn't this picture from another game? Do you think the weapons don't work in that game?

Edited September 5, 2021 by Survager (see edit history)

[TWORDY]

My biggest problem with weapons is the texture itself that looks blurry and rusty instead of high res-worn weapon theme. For most of the time players stare at those guns. I would rather expect after all of those years some fine-looking toys.

 

The same goes for scopes, that red tint effect just kills me in dark places. I can`t see anything with this effect, very unpractical. I believe many players figured that one out by themselves.

 

I would deeply appreciate some cool-looking scope with tactical yellow filter-tint that helps to locate enemies in dark spots. Just an idea. 

 

Devs pay more attention to what`s on the screen all the time, such an approach sells the game quicker... aesthetics for me is turbo important.

Scopes and some mods should be interchangeable and fit on some weapon types without any problem.

 

Devs must work on animations so the guns don`t feel too stiff. Some weapon sway, even minimalistic while moving from left to the right would bring some fresh air too (while zooming-in/scoping also).

 

Also, players might stun the zombies with a gunstock or something, or have an attachable bayonet - possibilities are endless.

 

On top of that melee combat needs some rework with new attack animations etc.

[meganoth]

On 9/5/2021 at 1:38 PM, Survager said:

 

Isn't this picture from another game? Do you think the weapons don't work in that game?

 

How would this work well with the circle of varying size that shows your targetting area, which is determined by RPG stats and the time you aim?

 

Edited September 6, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Ramethzer0]

On 9/4/2021 at 5:31 PM, Nifty_games said:

Feel free to comment and tell me your opinion.

 

My opinion is that I have so many fine points to debate about realism and firearms from actual real life experience to debate your entire reason for posting.

 

Not that I want to come down upon you and make you feel bad for posting, no.  Actually, I encourage the exchange of ideas.  However, there's this .. gut wrenching knot im left with and you DID solicit us for our opinion.

 

 

[Roland]

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

How would this work well with the circle of varying size that shows your targetting area, which is determined by RPG stats and the time you aim?

 

This is the  key issue. The game is not a shooter where your skill with a mouse or game pad is the be all and end all of hitting the target. You might be 100% accurate with your motor skills and still miss when you pull the trigger because this game has those elements of RPGs where probability based on your stats is also a determining factor. 
 

The reticle shows your hit area and your bullet could land anywhere in there. The reticle shrinks based on how long you aim and the stats created by perks and weapon mods. Without that feedback you could just always wait before firing but brand new players would have no idea why they were missing their shots so often. 

[Maharin]

One more...

 

Edited September 7, 2021 by Maharin (see edit history)

[bdubyah]

Sounds could be better, but aren't bad by any means.

 

I will agree that every gun in the game not using the rear sight annoys the crap out of me. Some guns it isn't so bad on, but the Tac AR and auto shotty are the worst. It might be a "design decision" due to the rng on accuracy, bu it still looks bad. And from what I've seen adding in new weapons, the camera has an odd angle to it when aiming down sights, making it an absolute pain to line up the sights. Which makes me wonder if it was just easier to design all the new weapons without rear sights, rather than address the camera instead...

[theFlu]

On 9/6/2021 at 7:21 PM, meganoth said:

How would this work well with the circle of varying size

How? Well, gun weave. The laser dot sight shows that the point of aim is chosen before firing as a traveling point in the crosshairs. Just make the gun graphic animate to match. Would I like it, not necessarily, but, I'm answering the "How"

 

Another improvement which might be interesting for aiming down the sights would be a "two eye" vision.. make the current gun semi-transparent, and make another copy of it to the right (and maybe a little down) to simulate your left eye field of vision giving you vision "through" the gun. The areas where the images overlap should be fully opaque over the world. No idea how popular this would be, but it could be pretty decent - would likely be a good candidate for a toggle setting somewhere.

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, theFlu said:

How? Well, gun weave. The laser dot sight shows that the point of aim is chosen before firing as a traveling point in the crosshairs. Just make the gun graphic animate to match. Would I like it, not necessarily, but, I'm answering the "How"

 

Another improvement which might be interesting for aiming down the sights would be a "two eye" vision.. make the current gun semi-transparent, and make another copy of it to the right (and maybe a little down) to simulate your left eye field of vision giving you vision "through" the gun. The areas where the images overlap should be fully opaque over the world. No idea how popular this would be, but it could be pretty decent - would likely be a good candidate for a toggle setting somewhere.

 

I can't imagine anyone really liking those changes. I accept that they are solutions, in the same sense as cyanide pills are a solution to headaches. 😉

 

 

 

[theFlu]

27 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I can't imagine anyone really liking those changes.

For me, I would have to see them implemented before judging; the double vision especially. It would allow to make a somewhat realistic view of the sights without blocking 90% of the screen, but getting used to it might take a while. With that, scoping would be real interesting ..

 

The gun swaying, I think I'd prefer that to the completely "blind" crosshairs, I tend to like having as much control/skill involved as possible over randomness. If the gun is dead on, I'd like it to shoot where it points..

[meganoth]

17 minutes ago, theFlu said:

For me, I would have to see them implemented before judging; the double vision especially. It would allow to make a somewhat realistic view of the sights without blocking 90% of the screen, but getting used to it might take a while. With that, scoping would be real interesting ..

 

The gun swaying, I think I'd prefer that to the completely "blind" crosshairs, I tend to like having as much control/skill involved as possible over randomness. If the gun is dead on, I'd like it to shoot where it points..

 

There is no question that some people would like this to be a shooter without randomness, but this is beside the point.

 

This is an RPG and there can't be a way around this "randomness" if the RPG part has to have relevance. The randomness is a direct representation of your toons skill determined by his perks and the quality of the weapon.

So if the swaying still allows you to shoot exactly if you have good reflexes and it sways slow enough then it does NOT work as a solution. It would need to be just a visual "gimmick" to make the randomness more believable. And that is a lot of discomfort to swallow for just some hint of realism IMHO

 

 

 

 

 

[theFlu]

20 minutes ago, meganoth said:

This is an RPG and there can't be a way around this "randomness" if the RPG part has to have relevance.

Well, I agree with the basic ideas you're describing, RPG-skills need a built-in place; I do disagree with the "because RPG, it MUST be this way".

 

The laser dot suggests that the pimps aren't against revealing that randomness, so there's clearly a way weapon sway could agree with their vision.

 

For the RPG-must-be-involved version, you could also make "sway based aiming" a perk in perception, or a completely unique LBD-gun-at-75/100-skill, or a character creation perk or ... what have you. You could still have the sway become more manageable with aim-related skillls (if one feels they need such a thing) etc etc.

[meganoth]

21 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Well, I agree with the basic ideas you're describing, RPG-skills need a built-in place; I do disagree with the "because RPG, it MUST be this way".

 

The laser dot suggests that the pimps aren't against revealing that randomness, so there's clearly a way weapon sway could agree with their vision.

 

For the RPG-must-be-involved version, you could also make "sway based aiming" a perk in perception, or a completely unique LBD-gun-at-75/100-skill, or a character creation perk or ... what have you. You could still have the sway become more manageable with aim-related skillls (if one feels they need such a thing) etc etc.

 

I already said that I accept your ideas as possible solutions, so I never said "because RPG it must be the way it is now".

 

I just added that they can*t provide a way to avoid the random hit chance (like you seemed to alude to in your post above, quote "I tend to like having as much control/skill involved as possible over randomness"). So normally they would just act as "window dressing". And for merely "window dressing" the idea with the sway seem relatively uncomfortable to me and (I assume) other players.

 

I would guess that the laser dot functions as "window dressing" as well, i.e. it provides a center point, but the circle around it still determines the area where the bullet could hit. If it really provides accurate shooting I would consider this a (small) bug.

 

Edited September 8, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

7 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I assume that the laser dot functions as "window dressing" as well, it provides a center point, but the circle around it still determines the area where the bullet could hit. If it really provides accurate shooting I would consider this a (small) bug.

Go ahead and file that bug report then. It's a little while ago, but I did tests with it early on.. set up a 2x2 wall, aimed at the cross between them, and destroyed one of the blocks based on the dot. Didn't hit the three other blocks once. I think it also worked with the crossbow, the bolts that remain landed exactly on the dot.

 

EDIT add: A good use for the dot is to land sneak attacks.. it shows the distance to target with its size, so you can be relatively sure you're not aiming at a door frame or some such nonsense ..

Edited September 8, 2021 by theFlu (see edit history)

[wizard puke]

Your gun is in your chin and renders through walls in almost every fps game but this is the thing that makes it unrealistic for you? 😋

[theFlu]

Ok, I might be a taad slow today, but, I went back and understood the issue (I think):

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

And that is a lot of discomfort to swallow for just some hint of realism IMHO

If you assume that the sway would be random AND unrelated to the actual point of aim, then absolutely, I'd be filing bug reports. The current "Crosshairs even while aimed" would be better, because a sway animation without relevance to the shooting would just drive me up a wall ...  

 

But as I assume the current system is sway-based already, I didn't even think to suggest otherwise.

Edited September 8, 2021 by theFlu (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

Ok, I might be a taad slow today, but, I went back and understood the issue (I think):

If you assume that the sway would be random AND unrelated to the actual point of aim, then absolutely, I'd be filing bug reports. The current "Crosshairs even while aimed" would be better, because a sway animation without relevance to the shooting would just drive me up a wall ...  

 

But as I assume the current system is sway-based already, I didn't even think to suggest otherwise.

 

The current system sway-based? What evidence seems to point in that direction? This would (IMHO) only be the case if they had inherited code from or adapted a shooter game where weapon sway was included.

 

The devs and Roland (to my knowledge) have always said that the actual hit is just a random spot inside the "accuracy" circle you see in the HUD.

And how they produce that randomness internally is not known, but getting two simple random numbers that depict a specific point in a circle only when you shoot uses MUCH less cpu and is much easier to program than an invisible swaying point that needs to be updated continually. Occams razor decidedly points to no invisible sway being used.

Edited September 8, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

What evidence seems to point in that direction?

The Laser Dot mod I've been railing about. It's quite a good pointer at that.. Try it. I just tried in my current game with a crossbow, bolts on the dot, always. Dot travels like sway.

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

This would (IMHO) only be the case if they had inherited code from or adapted a shooter game where weapon sway was included.

Might be plausible there's a mechanic for it in the game env they're working on top of.

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

And how they produce that randomness internally is not known,

Test the laser, guess more after. I agree it is a more expensive way, but not THAT much more expensive, couple of cycles (x_travelSpeed + rnd(-0.5,0.5)  .. x_coord + travelSpeed, every 1/60 sec)

Edited September 8, 2021 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Urban Blackbear]

We need to make it even more complicated. We need a found ammo type and a self-manufactured ammo type that each have their own failure rates. then we need to program the game to simulate getting powder blow-back in your face.

 

Also, I'll give a cookie to anyone who can post the formula for the area of a circle without googling it first.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Urban Blackbear (see edit history)