A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Adam the Waster said:

they tryed that before A long time ago when i was a little boy! and i never heard of 7DTD cuz i was eating dogfood and i was like 6 or something

but it would be nice. Hell just some extra zeds would be nice!

like a Zombie that is super rotten like the crawler but it walks, or a Armored survivor zombie, riot zombie, A full radioactive zombie (it takes the role of all rad zombies)  

like this is one of my Rad zombie! 

 

i' have idea to create a two variants of proposition what's types and variants should be added into 7dtd. What do you thing about this ? 

[TWORDY]

I believe 7DTD devs are doing fine with conceptualizing new types of enemies. I understand that players would like to see some mini-games like bosses or enemies that require some longer encounters including countering their attacks (abilities) and so on, and so forth - I`m not quite sure if this should be the case with 7DTD. 

 

The studio is doing well when it comes to creating new POIs (dungeon system). Sometimes I think that level 5 POIs are too huge for the average bread eater, but levels are designed in a brilliant manner (I couldn`t do it better by myself that`s for sure). World generator improves with each update so there is hope also.

 

I`m not sure if storages with loot should be that relevant/prevailing in stage/LVL1,2,3 POIs. Many players asked for small POIs, just to hide and set up a base in the early game I suppose. The uncertainty while entering a given POI has been the best experience in its own way (lack of wandering zombies counts into this too). Right now just drilling a hole to the basement, or building a scaffold to the attic solves a looting problem (finding proper boxes with content) - that`s kind of my feeling after many hours of (hopefully unbiased) play. Progressive loot quality bound with player level or game stage makes me skip storages with "beverage" and leave them to be opened on day 5th or 6th or just before 1st blood moon (because with every day passed the content tastes better 🌞). I`m not sure if it`s the best solution in progression, some players already expressed their concerns in this matter. So there is a replayability and progression issue that has to be looked into with every update. I`m not sure but perhaps excellent loot (5, 6 quality level items) should be gated behind trader mission (actually that's implemented now). Honestly, I have no bloody idea, but there are more reasonable possibilities that must be explored. 

 

The best part is in building and defending the base - the creation of bases is the most solid and fun aspect that can be found hardly in any other title rather than 7DTD.

 

What I would love to see is some sort of a transformation when it comes to the look of the interior and exterior graphics (general look of the POIs). Higher coherence, better complexity (geometrical) of certain elements of the environment is welcome after so many years, and there is one talented lad working on the environment already. A Group of artists transforming the look of the terrain, objects, fx in the world would transform the game.

 

The game probably asks for a highly skilled animator. Also, someone who could develop combat systems and work on their general feel. Some brilliant guy who might improve physics in the game, improve net code, etc. - there should be put enormous effort. Some of the systems and mechanics developed might be used in the next titles so I wouldn`t think about any work done as redundant or too costly - for example, swimming animations. Some systems might be continuously being developed and implemented in other titles also.

 

 

[ShellHead]

3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

I can't agree , there is not enough variants in "Vanillia" version and what is a problem in my opinion with mods - like in l4d2 most custom model of enemies are added for fun. I found a "lore friendly" 2 weaks ago - new hunters , chargers, witch variants - in the past i was founding only stupid ones - shrek tank , witch with well "toy " or dorito boomer minecraft zombie or cod zombie. Now they add a more "lore friendly" like more types of workers , new zombie soldiers prisoners etc. You know what i mean. And yeah everything can works alright as mods but it doesn't mean it shoudn't be in clean game. 

 

@ShellHead what do you thinking about this proposition?

I agree that having meaningful variety is really important, and i think adding some more unique characteristics would be good. That being said, adding separate loot tables and new abilities is a lot harder to do and more time consuming than new models alone would be as well as spreading the work to more than just the art and animation staff. I think the ideas you have are definitely worth considering and taking into account in terms of making zombies more engaging but I don’t think i’d put the entire amount you have listed here as it seems like it’d be kind of overwhelming both for TFP to make and for the playerbase to learn about. But i think your point about not just leaving it to the mod community is correct, it has no guarantee of quality or of being cohesive with the vanilla game even if there are a lot of good mods as it stands.

My thinking is that more zombie variety both horizontally (more variants within threat categories) and vertically (more threat categories for enemies to fall into) is good, makes the combat more engaging and enables more interesting base designs and trap usage. Bosses (while the demo is currently holding this role, I don’t think it should as all it does is just obliterate chunks of your base without really creating interesting counterplay, it should have its defenses reduced and be used like a nastier cop IMO) create memorable horde nights and could be fun capstones to tier 5 POIs.

special zeds like the cop demand new strategies in both regular combat and base defense while making sure no one weapon or fighting style dominates.

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, ShellHead said:

I agree that having meaningful variety is really important, and i think adding some more unique characteristics would be good. That being said, adding separate loot tables and new abilities is a lot harder to do and more time consuming than new models alone would be as well as spreading the work to more than just the art and animation staff. I think the ideas you have are definitely worth considering and taking into account in terms of making zombies more engaging but I don’t think i’d put the entire amount you have listed here as it seems like it’d be kind of overwhelming both for TFP to make and for the playerbase to learn about. But i think your point about not just leaving it to the mod community is correct, it has no guarantee of quality or of being cohesive with the vanilla game even if there are a lot of good mods as it stands.

My thinking is that more zombie variety both horizontally (more variants within threat categories) and vertically (more threat categories for enemies to fall into) is good, makes the combat more engaging and enables more interesting base designs and trap usage. Bosses (while the demo is currently holding this role, I don’t think it should as all it does is just obliterate chunks of your base without really creating interesting counterplay, it should have its defenses reduced and be used like a nastier cop IMO) create memorable horde nights and could be fun capstones to tier 5 POIs.

special zeds like the cop demand new strategies in both regular combat and base defense while making sure no one weapon or fighting style dominates.

Yeah and i'm rly tired about 1242534 talks about " lighting" or "FOV" - okay it be "simpler" - weak, teen,  normals , tought and armor have this same "behave" just difrrent stats - weak can't run , teen walks faster and can respawing like" sleeping zombie" but outside POI too. If i good remever Loot can be easy to implement -  like now but  backpack have change chance into 100% ( and ofc respawn chance is need to be added but it easier that animations). And argument like " moders can add this" is pointless because - junk guns can be add too, new POI'S too , FOG too , new armors too etc

 

Demo in my opinon would give some "helm deps" vibs you know he is slow but you need to put a some bullet before he die - something like berserk urk hai and legolas. 

Cop zombies? Well they outside a hordes too so i prefer to jest elimate them ability of jumping and forced them to be "zombie mortar" .

 

But i fell kinda deppresed now XD because i think  a small number of members cares about this " problem" , i wish to create some "propopsition" to TFP but i need a support of comunnity to exist any chance to "consider" this suggestion by them .

 

[ShellHead]

3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Yeah and i'm rly tired about 1242534 talks about " lighting" or "FOV" - okay it be "simpler" - weak, teen,  normals , tought and armor have this same "behave" just difrrent stats - weak can't run , teen walks faster and can respawing like" sleeping zombie" but outside POI too. If i good remever Loot can be easy to implement -  like now but  backpack have change chance into 100% ( and ofc respawn chance is need to be added but it easier that animations). And argument like " moders can add this" is pointless because - junk guns can be add too, new POI'S too , FOG too , new armors too etc

 

Demo in my opinon would give some "helm deps" vibs you know he is slow but you need to put a some bullet before he die - something like berserk urk hai and legolas. 

Cop zombies? Well they outside a hordes too so i prefer to jest elimate them ability of jumping and forced them to be "zombie mortar" .

 

But i fell kinda deppresed now XD because i think  a small number of members cares about this " problem" , i wish to create some "propopsition" to TFP but i need a support of comunnity to exist any chance to "consider" this suggestion by them .

 

They might not really care if your idea has support, just if it’s well thought out.

i do think people want more variety and so i think you are in the ballpark. You might want to look at it from how l4d2 did their zeds, 90% of them were a single type with different clothes so they looked a bit different but had no gameplay changing characteristics, uncommons had 1 unique trait but either the trait was weak/situational (hazmats were immune to grenade effects) or they were rarer (riot cops were bulletproof from the front), and there were even fewer special infected which was where most of the designing and player skill went towards. Loot is also game changing, so unique loot tables for particular zeds have to be focused on gameplay as opposed to realism (a simple example would be making tougher zeds drop better loot) so like giving the tourist zed a higher chance to drop old world money would be flavorful but would require making it a less common unique type, not just a reskin of another.

[bloodmoth13]

On 5/9/2021 at 12:55 AM, Adam the Waster said:

not really.

tier 0: i would see the Pipe rifle as the old Hunting rifle but it only has one shot and is made of pipes. 

tier 1: Hunting rifle. it would look the same as the classic one we have but it has a Small clip (3 shots) can get 5. and thats a right amount for a Deer rifle and it would still want players to get that over the pipe rifle.

tier 2: the Marksman rifle would be the lever action and it would have 8 shots. (think it will be neat if it shot 44.mag rounds)

tier 3 would be the Sniper it would have 15 and still deal high damage and can be Pimped out more, with stuff like a drum mag

 

Also a little change for the Sniper so they can be used over say a AR. sense most people uses stuff like the TAR or AK as a sniper.

maybe the sniper will deal more damage the farther the target. so you could uses it as a closes range weapon but its better for long range

I think just give snipers penetration baseline to differentiate them from machine guns.

 

I dont see any reason to remove the current t2 sniper, but giving the current hunting rifle a clip would go a long way. I dont see a winchester replacing the t2 tbh, and they did say they were removing the current hunting rifle, i figure its getting replaced by the lever action while its current functionality is relegated to the pipe rifle.

[Gazz]

There are no rifles with a clip (like the SKS uses) in the game and AFAIK, none are planned.

[bloodmoth13]

6 hours ago, Gazz said:

There are no rifles with a clip (like the SKS uses) in the game and AFAIK, none are planned.

What are the rifles going to be in the new patch?

Im guessing:
pipe > lever action > marksman > sniper

is that about what i can expect?

If so that would be pretty big for rifle builds and i will try out a rifle set up on the first patch. 

[Matt115]

13 hours ago, ShellHead said:

They might not really care if your idea has support, just if it’s well thought out.

i do think people want more variety and so i think you are in the ballpark. You might want to look at it from how l4d2 did their zeds, 90% of them were a single type with different clothes so they looked a bit different but had no gameplay changing characteristics, uncommons had 1 unique trait but either the trait was weak/situational (hazmats were immune to grenade effects) or they were rarer (riot cops were bulletproof from the front), and there were even fewer special infected which was where most of the designing and player skill went towards. Loot is also game changing, so unique loot tables for particular zeds have to be focused on gameplay as opposed to realism (a simple example would be making tougher zeds drop better loot) so like giving the tourist zed a higher chance to drop old world money would be flavorful but would require making it a less common unique type, not just a reskin of another.

Reskins i mean : boomer have male and female, tank have default/sacrifice skin,  witch have 2 variants etc You know change camos will be easy for zombie soldiers .  But  "uncommon" can be usefull in 7dtd you know- biker is tought but  commando zombie is toughter and can give you better stuff ( or more exp because their target is that a zombie drop lot rare). I don't know if you play in l4d2 after the last stand update but they added a small think. zombie cop can drop nightstick now but they are still common infected . And this "unique"  loot isn't gamechanging at all - you know "gary" have only 5% chance to respawn on gas station and when hit you he put oil on you so you see less, gasmask is sitting in lab and still 5% etc You know something like fallen survior from l4d2 - they are more " oh i found it radomly' that hunting target becouse it is pointless to hunt "vampire" for 1 blood pack or gasmask when you can find it somewhere else .

So  Toughter zombie drops  better loot still working by just realism - Biker helmet isn't as good as soldier helmet , strongman can give you a lot of exp and sterids etc 

And it keep zombies in diffrent difficulty places like - bar is easier POI that military base. 

 

And sometime exp can be usefull too like : (fat group) zombie turist can drop old cash and it type zombie respawn in city ,bars , gas station etc

(Fat group) drowned respawn near a rivers like , and is more powerfull and don't drop anything but give you a lot more exp that zombie turist - exp is loot to but guaranteed .

And have to implement it : something like - 

 

Weak zombies have 20-40% chance to respawn depends on biom

Teen have 10- 30% chance depends on biom 

normal - 30-50% depends on biom

Armored - 5%-15% depends on biom

tought  - 5%-15% depends on biom

Special -  5%-15% not depends on biom - it depends on POI and game stage only

Boss - 1% not depends on biom - it depends on POI and game stage only

Zombie animal - it depends on biom.

Backpack 5% - but what variant have a chance a respawn depends on biom and PoI

Unique 2% - outside , 5% in their POI- (vampire girl on bridges and tunnels, pilot in hotel , gasmark on military outpost and bunker etc)

 

Well l4d2 have a problem with uncommons/special that they are rarely dangerous in " normal" mode . In  realism or versus splitter and charger can be overpower , on versus  riot can block you and make you easy target for hunter or charger etc

In 7dtd zombie are more "individal" but some mixes like  vulture + biker can kill you easy

[ShellHead]

Numbers seem reasonable, looks like it would get a good mix of types in a horde.

Seems solid.

[Matt115]

Just now, ShellHead said:

Numbers seem reasonable, looks like it would get a good mix of types in a horde.

Seems solid.

Yeah but i have no idea how to conect this with gamestage and hordes 

[ShellHead]

44 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Yeah but i have no idea how to conect this with gamestage and hordes 

I’m not sure how much you’d need to tweak for hordes, seems like it would use normal spawn ratios just more spawns and faster.

as for gamestage, you just shift the weaker zeds into ferals/irradiated, maybe bumping up the % of specials vs regular zeds.
Don’t forget, a lot of the specific numbers are based on balance and internal data that we as players don’t have access to, so what you should be focusing on is making sure that the concepts behind your new zeds and what you want fighting them to feel like are really clear. Ultimately you want your idea as easy to bring in as possible while being easily tweaked once the idea is picked up, so the numbers are only important insofar as they help you get your concept across.

[Adam the Waster]

4 hours ago, Matt115 said:

SOME OF THEM HAD MINING HELMET - ZOMBIE ACCESORY CONFIRMED 

but srly i he thinking about something like minecraft zombies and skeletons - zombie can respawn with armor so they have better protection 

Well that was just a cut zombie type. the zombie miner.

but it would be net if when bandits come out, you can find them and White river people as zombies and they would spawn in with there armor!

there face would turn into a Generic rotten face and uses the body of the bandit as a template for a zombie

 

[Matt115]

2 minutes ago, ShellHead said:

I’m not sure how much you’d need to tweak for hordes, seems like it would use normal spawn ratios just more spawns and faster.

as for gamestage, you just shift the weaker zeds into ferals/irradiated, maybe bumping up the % of specials vs regular zeds.
Don’t forget, a lot of the specific numbers are based on balance and internal data that we as players don’t have access to, so what you should be focusing on is making sure that the concepts behind your new zeds and what you want fighting them to feel like are really clear. Ultimately you want your idea as easy to bring in as possible while being easily tweaked once the idea is picked up, so the numbers are only important insofar as they help you get your concept across.

Yeah , demolithion zombie is on 153 stage so i will just put 0-50 early, 50 - 150 medium stage and 150- 999 as end stage

[Matt115]

1 minute ago, Adam the Waster said:

Well that was just a cut zombie type. the zombie miner.

but it would be net if when bandits come out, you can find them and White river people as zombies and they would spawn in with there armor!

there face would turn into a Generic rotten face and uses the body of the bandit as a template for a zombie

 

I Know it was joke XD i'm trying to became this forum comic XD 

 

Yeah i think they will just make them in two versions :  normal human and  zombie . And when respawn they will chance a chance to get a armor like minecraft mobs

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, Games'n'Grumble said:

Dear developers, perhaps @faatal or @madmole, will there be blocks with particles in the game? Or just additional visual effects, for example, sparks from faulty electric lamps, steam from an air duct, smoke, drops from a pipe in some basement? In addition, to enhance the atmosphere of the post-apocalypse, I think it would be interesting to see some blocks with animation - wobbling lamps, curtains that move in the wind, slowly rotating fans, and so on. The animation on the trees looks great, I would like to see something similar in the houses. Are there any plans?

You mean like the dumpster, burning barrels, or the bar neon sign?

[PoloPoPo]

This game desparately needs more zombie models and more variation in zombies' abilities. Even a beginner notices after an hour of gameplay that there are the same zombies all over the place and they can't do anything but getting close and swing after you. They don't have to be completely new models from scratch with costly artist work required. Variation in colors, maybe just a variation of faces on the same body, add some scars here and there for variation, different hair, let some zombies spawn with only one arm etc.

[meilodasreh]

45 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Giant Zombieboss: Cut from the game. Won't be included ever in this game.

The Bandits: Will not be in A20 but the player animations as well as the new models for the NPCs in A20 are all more steps towards bandits.

Flying Drone: Ready to go for A20. Won't be postponed again.

NPC system: If you're talking about reputation or the random encounter system then there is no word on when or if those systems are coming to this game at this point.

Pets/Followers: Replaced by the drone. The drone is the evolution of the pet/follower idea. There will not be other pets or followers in the vanilla game other than your faithful drone.

Survivor Rescues: No word on when or if such a feature will make it into this game. The stretch goals mention NPC characters (which could be fulfilled by bandits) and merchants.

Build NPC village: Most likely not happening for this game. This feature was mentioned as a dream feature by Madmole but is not listed in any of the original goals. What is listed is an NPC controlled safehouse.

 

There are lots of things the developers would love to do beyond the scope of their original goals that will become part of their next game. Their focus is on getting this game finished so they can achieve some of these dream features that couldn't quite make it for this game into the next one. 

Cool Roland thx for the update,

way better than the "any features might be added, changed, postponed, cancelled,... that's why it's called development" reaction i expected from staff here, love it! 👍

 

Any chance btw the first post gets an update too? There's still much stuff saying "details coming", and it don't.

If it is just to keep me excited, I'm ok, but the others might not understand 🤪

[meilodasreh]

39 minutes ago, PoloPoPo said:

This game desparately needs more zombie models and more variation in zombies' abilities. Even a beginner notices after an hour of gameplay that there are the same zombies all over the place and they can't do anything but getting close and swing after you. They don't have to be completely new models from scratch with costly artist work required. Variation in colors, maybe just a variation of faces on the same body, add some scars here and there for variation, different hair, let some zombies spawn with only one arm etc.

Last weekend I played 7D2d 2 with madmole, and it was so annoying: the biker zombie stole my motorcycle, and when I tried to chase him by foot I stumbled over a pile of bricks the construction guy zombie placed in my way. Laying there, a nurse zombie intoxicated me with a fully drawn up syringe of some tranquilizer.

Last thing I saw was a lumberjack zombie throwing all the wooden ammo crates in my base into my freshly crafted industrial forge, then everything went BOOOOOM.

 

So if you ask me:

No Sir, no zombies with abilities, I will stay with the boring dumb ones!

 

sidenote: I might or might not have just envisioned smaller parts of or the whole story above

Edited May 11, 2021 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[playlessNamer]

50 minutes ago, PoloPoPo said:

This game desparately needs more zombie models and more variation in zombies' abilities. Even a beginner notices after an hour of gameplay that there are the same zombies all over the place and they can't do anything but getting close and swing after you. They don't have to be completely new models from scratch with costly artist work required. Variation in colors, maybe just a variation of faces on the same body, add some scars here and there for variation, different hair, let some zombies spawn with only one arm etc.

 

Exactly but actually they are on a pretty good way. There are tons of options to improve the diversity of zombies and zombietypes without crazy stuff outside any zombielore.

 

Spiderzombie: small, very agil, can jump and climb, fits perfect.

fat zombie: much HP, exploding is nice (seen in dozeens of Z-games, they just explode)

burned zombie: can ignite you

fat mama zombie: tons of hp

crawler: crawling!

demolisher: no zombiebreaking lore, he has just a bomb on.

screamer: very nice!

army zombie: headshot resistance.

football zombie: faster or perma running

 

There are allready a lot of different styles based on the type of zombie.

There couldt be easy much more:

 

stripper zombie: long nails do scratch/bleed dmg

muscle zombie: very strong, has a short range charge attack.

bulldozer zombie: fat and fast. accelerate and wanna crash into you.

half mutated zombie, infection not completed: can use weapons, has creepy voicelines because he can still barely talk.

the doctor or scientist: still as zombie more clever than the rest, he can open doors and acts smarter in any way.

police zombie: bulletproof jacket, aim to other bodyparts.

nurse zombie: care for infections

feral wight: running at night (see below)

 

This are just the ones without crazy stuff. Spitting zombies, poison aura or any other superpowers are possible too.

 

When there are all different zombies, different strenght and weaks, different movespeeds, behaviour and special abillitys you can finally reduce the green horde to a minimum and get rid of this "running at night" feature because its all coded on the zombies. Mayby some spawn only night, hide at day.

Some mods out there made allready epic stuff with the new debuffs.

Edited May 11, 2021 by playlessNamer (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, meilodasreh said:

Cool Roland thx for the update,

way better than the "any features might be added, changed, postponed, cancelled,... that's why it's called development" reaction i expected from staff here, love it! 👍

 

Any chance btw the first post gets an update too? There's still much stuff saying "details coming", and it don't.

If it is just to keep me excited, I'm ok, but the others might not understand 🤪

 

Once another dev stream happens that is dedicated to A20, the info will get updated. The developers decided to make big announcements and reveals in the dev stream format after their success in A19. So until then we get little bits and updates but once they are ready to show actual A20 gameplay and features then I will be able to give more details on the first page. 

 

No. I don't know when the next dev stream will air.

[SxR]

ronald pls..

[playlessNamer]

thx for moving the post, i realized it myself allready while typing it derails the thread but i couldnt stop.

 

45 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

Last weekend I played 7D2d 2 with madmole, and it was so annoying: the biker zombie stole my motorcycle,...

 

nice to have exactly opposite opinion on it.

You describe a crazy zombieabillity szenario, thats not in my favour too. Spitting zombies, poison aura zombies, stealing bikes zombies, flying ones, fire shooting or flamethrower zeds,... dont like this.

 

I talk about very basic things. When you get attacked by a 20year old, 50kg zombie its a complete other fight than a bodybuilder zombie. Just this different bodystyles and abillitys they had as humans make them unique. We can scratch the border to "superpowers" but i dont want riddicioulus things.

A scientist zombie couldt really be smarter, a fat agressive zombie slowly accelerates in your direction and cant brake anymore and will crash into walls or have a long way to brake. Maybe some @%$#ed zombies falling down and be partially crawlers but can stand up again.

football zombies have still better legmuscles and can always run.

Maybe a lumberjack is sometimes so familiar to his axe he intuitive still can use it as zombie due to musclememory.

Half mutated can easy use mellee weapons.

Nurses worked till last minute in hospital where all kind of infections go crazy, reasonable.

 

When all zeds are different and you face a small horde of different types its a complete other challenge to deal with them. I am a fan of the basic NOT RUNNING zombies too but this doesnt mean every zombie must be the same.

 

but most important:

child zombies: never ever think about it. This will instaban this game from germany like dying light. Banned only because childzombies, pls not and they are way to creepy too.

[Fanatical_Meat]

^^^^Yeah I really love how every year or every few months 7D2D is basically a new game been a great ride however at some point it needs to move forward and constantly adding thing because they are cool only delays stuff.

i would be perfectly happy having boss zombies or pets or whatever added as a fair priced dlc.

[Adam the Waster]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Giant Zombieboss: Cut from the game. Won't be included ever in this game.

The Bandits: Will not be in A20 but the player animations as well as the new models for the NPCs in A20 are all more steps towards bandits.

Flying Drone: Ready to go for A20. Won't be postponed again.

NPC system: If you're talking about reputation or the random encounter system then there is no word on when or if those systems are coming to this game at this point.

Pets/Followers: Replaced by the drone. The drone is the evolution of the pet/follower idea. There will not be other pets or followers in the vanilla game other than your faithful drone.

Survivor Rescues: No word on when or if such a feature will make it into this game. The stretch goals mention NPC characters (which could be fulfilled by bandits) and merchants.

Build NPC village: Most likely not happening for this game. This feature was mentioned as a dream feature by Madmole but is not listed in any of the original goals. What is listed is an NPC controlled safehouse.

 

There are lots of things the developers would love to do beyond the scope of their original goals that will become part of their next game. Their focus is on getting this game finished so they can achieve some of these dream features that couldn't quite make it for this game into the next one. 

I hope with the NPC camps. 

i hope we can mess them up!

and have zombies attack them XD