A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[doughphunghus]

I wrote up a post on valheim vs 7d2d and chose not to post it, but the gist of it was to (as a 7d2d player who tried valheim) see what 7d2d could improve to make the game more fun/neat. 
 

the short answer: not much.  

Sure there’s a lot of little things that valheim does well (like making chopping down trees fun again) but trying to translate that to something 7d2d could actually (practically? From a non developer perspective) improve upon was not easy. For the tree chopping example, all I could come up with was “7d2d should probably take a branch or two off of the trees and use the triangles to put a bottom/roots on the trees , or leave stumps like valheim does, and make chopping down stumps kinda worthless (like valheim does) so the landscape looks not so flat when you’re done. 
 

another example: valheim has “lush looking landscape”. The only possible 7d2d improvement I could come up with was maybe make the grass blocks “scaleable” via mods (so no new blocks) So all the grass isn’t the same  height. If you cannot scale it, then add a few taller grass blocks. Maybe add some trees that could spawn “in a fallen state”, at least in the deeper forest.

 

lots of little Stuff, nothing big.

 

I think the love for valheim (other than being new) is that it’s like 7d2d but the graphics are very nostalgic/fun, and it’s fun to build in.  Another item is that in valheim, time doesn’t matter. You can take as much time as you want to do whatever, or just hang out and build. In 7d2d, time matters, you can’t easily just do nothing all the time.  I think people who love valheim like the grind, or at least “I can pace myself and just enjoy doing my thing”. Of course, you can simply turn off zeds/blood moons in 7d, so it’s kinda a wash.  
 

also: one is about Vikings and has really hypnotic music. The other is not about Vikings, and having a music track would be wrong. I personally like the “comes and goes” music in 7d, though I wish it didn’t tell me before I was aware that I was in danger, only triggered after I was being attacked. 
 

also: valheims “water” is awesome, and using the boat(s) are their ways of handling grinding/atmosphere. It’s like they wanted you to have to sit on a boat for a long time to bask in peacefulness/danger. But even then, I see all sorts of posts for “why can’t we teleport ores! Sigh! It’s so annoying!” So it’s “good gaming mechanics to make it unique” are just like 7d2d as well , as some players just want to become gods immediately and win the game as fast as possible, choosing to not “become absorbed in the game” and just “get it over with”.   I hope both games do not cater to these people, at least in their vanilla version.

Edited March 19, 2021 by doughphunghus (see edit history)

[uncle.heavy]

It makes one wonder how that image still is instantly recognizable after all these... ahem... weeks.

Maybe everything in gaming since then were steps in the wrong direction in the first place 🤔

Then again, the not-quite-so-pixelated Joel model does look really impressive,

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Guppycur said:

And we are practically on rails these days... Do this, in this order, or die.  Sandbox play is broken... I guess you technically could, but it's no longer fun.  Not enough to do.  And there used to be.  The devs (well, Joel) have said time and again "we want you to do xyz".  And it shows.  

 

Say what...? What rail? What do you mean there is less to do than there used to be? I don't agree with this at all. I guess I would agree that we briefly had caves and they were a fun thing that we don't have any longer but we also didn't have caves before we did until we didn't again. What else was there that we could that we can't now? I don't feel anyone dictating how I play or how I build. POI's are exponentially more interesting than they used to be. I guess there are "rails" there IF you follow the path-- which I don't. But even with the lighted path, the POIs are more interesting than the empty cardboard boxes we used to have.

 

I understand and have the same frustration about some of the simplifications but that doesn't put the game on rails or mean there is less to do. Wait...are you talking about LBD? I really don't like the LBD in Valheim. It kills replay value for me. I will never restart a new game with a new character the way that game is set up. Valheim will be a one-time playthrough for me...

[doughphunghus]

1 hour ago, Guppycur said:

Not enough to do.  And there used to be

I do agree with this, as I really like having “too much to think about” when playing, meaning: so I go get water now, or craft xyz? I’m going to need xyz for something things, but I also need to mine abc for coal....  I like having a ton of stuff to have to manage and find and sell/hoard. Just like I like a lot of crafting stations in order to need to build more rooms/area for a base to handle them.  But that’s just my fun way, I know.

 

I kinda wish there were a few more tiers of stuff above what we have today, that were not lootable, and could only be attained after clearing some hurdle/gate in the game. Not just “more powerful gun” but like special traps, or even blocks, recipes, etc. to craft special/niche items. 
 

ive never really played sandbox mode in any game besides Factorio, as ... there was so much to try to figure out I actually needed to use it to plan stuff out!  Of course, some would argue “but that’s the fun of factorio! Time and resource management under threat of enemy hordes coming at your factory!  Don’t use sandbox mode to prebuild blueprints and just and import them”(this would be like making an awesome base in the prefab editor and placing it down on day 1.... which kinda ruins the beginning of the game, IMHO). yeah, there’s so much to do that keeps the fun going after the game has been “won” that I do go back and play factorio quite a bit.  I really hope 7d2d is like that when it goes gold: lots of stuff to do so you can play it many times over in different ways/goals and still enjoy it. I think it is/has/will but having “less” (blocks/items/etc) in vanilla than we have today seems hard to imagine right now.  I also personally want “more” unique vanilla stuff than we have today. Maybe the TFP goal is to have a lot of simple “mechanics” worked out, just enough content for a normal game, and then hope modders will fill in a lot of unique content.  If this is true, I really wish that things like icons/models would be sent to the clients, and several other things were done to beef up modding capabilities. I’ve heard steam workshop might fix these issues a bit.

 

 

[Gazz]

Yeah. The model on the right has some serious detail.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, doughphunghus said:

I do agree with this, as I really like having “too much to think about” when playing, meaning: so I go get water now, or craft xyz? I’m going to need xyz for something things, but I also need to mine abc for coal....

 

I see what you're saying and maybe this is what Guppy was talking about as well. I agree that Valheim really starts stacking up the tasks you need to do in order to reach whatever your next objective is and there is a lot of "I want to do A but that means I will first need to do B which requires I do C" type of thinking. Personally, I do that same type of thinking about 7 Days to Die as well-- although I am much more familiar with 7 Days to Die. Valheim required a lot of figuring out how to do C so I could get B which would let me do A and that exploration space is fun the first time you experience it for any game.  but then--you've learned the process and it becomes just a process to play through. 

 

The thing about Valheim, though, is that working through your list of tasks is pretty casual. I never feel that time matters. As novel as the tree chopping was at first, I hate chopping trees because it is click by click on the mouse. and now the novelty has worn off and really all I want to get is fine wood. Same thing when I need to go hunting for hides. When I know I need like 30 and so all my playtime is going to be running around shooting animals, it makes me not feel like signing on. Am I excited to reach the next boss and get to the next biome? yes. But the tasks I must do to prepare have become mundane and require a lot of time and effort- so.....I find myself playing less often now.

 

Of course, that's just me. Plenty of people are continuing to have lots of fun with Valheim. Nothing Valheim does right, btw, will change 7 Days to Die. The dye is cast for this game. But perhaps they will be inspired for the next game.

 

I LOVE the spatially relevent upgrades to workstations. I love the variety of workstations. I also wish 7 Days had more workstations and higher tiers of existing workstations. I also love the boss progression and the biome progression. It is a great way to pace the game and open new items and resources. Biome progression is coming to 7 Days but I doubt it will be quite as pronounced as Valheim. I don't think people will get absolutely rekt by going into say the desert in 7 Days before they are ready like you do in Valheim if you wander into or even sail too closely to a biome you aren't ready for yet...lol

 

 

 

 

[pregnable]

19 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

What is funny is how many more copies you would likely sell, just from the novelty alone. 

[Guppycur]

One thing I discovered with Valheim is that if you just play, not min max, the progression just sort of works, without even really trying.  I like that.  There is a um... Special person... on the server that has crates and crates of stuff... That works for him.  I like that.  I chose to work with others, this person was more solo, but both worked.  He was a little faster on boss beating than we were but it wasn't that far off.  Both play styles worked.  I had fun, and presumably he had fun, that's what counted...   I don't have that experience with 7 days.  7 days forces you to a pace. 

 

With 7days I don't get that sandbox feeling.  I *have* to play by their rules, and the progression is always the same.  There are some deviations between skill trees but ultimately it comes down to making lots of bullets and shooting lots of things.  

 

Anyway, I didn't really intend to do a side by side comparison (although 7days of old did have those trees).

[pregnable]

2 hours ago, Guppycur said:

One thing I discovered with Valheim is that if you just play, not min max, the progression just sort of works, without even really trying.  I like that.  There is a um... Special person... on the server that has crates and crates of stuff... That works for him.  I like that.  I chose to work with others, this person was more solo, but both worked.  He was a little faster on boss beating than we were but it wasn't that far off.  Both play styles worked.  I had fun, and presumably he had fun, that's what counted...   I don't have that experience with 7 days.  7 days forces you to a pace. 

 

With 7days I don't get that sandbox feeling.  I *have* to play by their rules, and the progression is always the same.  There are some deviations between skill trees but ultimately it comes down to making lots of bullets and shooting lots of things.  

 

Anyway, I didn't really intend to do a side by side comparison (although 7days of old did have those trees).

 

I do not really know a lot about Valheim.  It looks fun, but I probably will not try it for a while. 

 

One cool thing about 7days is that you do not have to even bother building a base after a while.  You can just fight the horde at night, without a base, even on the hardest settings, even horde every night. 

 

You can basically just loot or do whatever you want all day and just fight the horde at night.  I am starting to do that in my current world, but I still like starting off inside my base for fun, and faster exp. 

 

Oh, and I fight them with melee so I do not make or use bullets. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by pregnable
stuff (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

Happy birthday to me, happy birthday to me, yadda yadda yadda... Now where's Alpha 20? 😜

[HungryZombie]

On 3/16/2021 at 3:14 AM, MechanicalLens said:

 

So basically, despite the fact this is where balance was not focused, the four other attributes could hold their own solo, to varying degrees (depending on the type of weapon), but the Intellect built would have the most trouble in this regard. M60 vs horde? Easy. Shotgun vs horde? No problem. Sniper + explosives vs horde? Doable. Pistols + SMG against horde? A cakewalk. Turrets vs horde? Obscenely difficult.

 

Not complaining, just making an observation.

 

I think you are overlooking some possibilities.  Like M60 + 2 Turrets. Rocket Launcher + Turrets, etc.  You also are not considering things like blade traps and electric trip wires and fences. This is where an intellect build thrives in a nicely built kill corridor with turrets and blade traps with electric wires that stun the horde. This takes care of any horde, any size just about.

 

Int is totally sustainable as a build.

[CypherTodd]

On 2/20/2021 at 11:44 AM, Shineblossom said:

The survival is purpose.  It is not games' fault if you can not be entertained if game isn't a theme park. How can you call it your "favourite game"  when you hate its very basics. There are tons of game with "no purpose". Look at WoW. League of Legends. Cities: Skylines. They are all popular.

and that is where you are wrong.  All those games HAVE purpose.  Gear/boss/advance.  Kill the enemy base, win.  build bigger, fix issues that arise because of city size.  they ALL have a purpose.  so......

[CypherTodd]

On 2/20/2021 at 5:44 PM, Roland said:

The developers are aware of and impressed by Valheim. There is definitely some inspiration to be found there for them to possibly think about for a sequel-- but 7 Days to Die is what it is. It's practically done. There are some additional features still in the works including an over-arching goal regarding Noah vs the Duke. But no matter how cool Valheim is or what amazing innovative features emerge in the next few months in some other new release, it isn't going to affect this game very much. But Valheim definitely is inspirational in what it does well and any development studio should take notice and spend time talking about why it has skyrocketed like it has.

Ya I get it, they are still a small team.  And that sucks I am in no way trying to be a critic.  4656 hours.  So ya, I was just really wanting it to be more.  I know that is not going to happen, and I do feel modders will be have a huge impact after full release.  I just some times go to bed thinking wouldn't it be cool to have a hub city with a massive underground base where you have to finally find the cure, or reason, and then get rescued, or a massive quest were you have to repair a damn, and provide power to XYZ.  Just bigger, cause that is what, I humbly feel, is the one missing ingredient.  The reason to push on, a goal.  7days to die the sequel maybe.   

[hiemfire]

I'm going to drop this here instead of in the Dev Diary where the argument keeps coming up, but the disagreements over the balance between the different perk lines seems to be falling into a difference between those that love living by the dice (The "It's fine. Just take x, y or z rng drop dependent items with it and you're set." group) and those that don't (the "Running spec a eats x times more resources, including time, than running running spec b. And that is if I even find the items my spec works with." group).

Edited March 21, 2021 by hiemfire (see edit history)

[morggin]

On 10/29/2020 at 2:50 PM, Mattjo6294 said:

Hoping to see dual wielding in a future alpha, dual revolvers would look cool, also a few variations of revolvers too like a mosin nagant or something to that effect 

mosin nagant is not a revolver it's a russian military rifle.

[beHypE]

One huge asset Valheim has over 7 days to die is that, as some have stated, time is no issue. You could be grinding the starter biome for 20 hours if that's fun to you, just casually hunting birds and deers, or you could try to rush as quickly as possible to the next biome until you finish the game (or get rekt and realise you need to prepare). This also brings a level of flexibility 7 days doesn't have. We've had days with my group where we really wanted to push it and get a challenge, and then there were days of "let's just hunt some meat and feathers and maybe do a low level cave because we need early game mats". You can't do that with 7 days. The way the game is designed, it's basically a rush against the clock to be prepared by the next horde. Sure, you can turn off hordes or just play on 2 hours days with easy settings, but then the whole challenge is gone for the entirety of the game. You can't just hop in and do whatever you feel like depending on the day and your IRL energy level, you'll have to live with the decision you made when you first started playing (unless you constantly change settings which would feel gamey to the point of being close to cheating the game).

 

In addition, the biomes really feel different, as in, different monsters, different ressources, different milestones in crafting/building. The biomes in 7 days feel like basic reskins with the odd wildlife difference, but zombies are all the same especially in their mechanics. Hopefully A20 will turn that a bit around, but unless we get special creatures for the harder biomes, just "raising the gamestage" won't give biomes a different combat feel. Oh yeah, combat. Valheim's combat is simple but it's fun and engaging. 7 days melee combat is quite frankly subpar on so many levels, especially compared to how awesome the game is in other areas. 

 

Lastly, bosses. We've had crazy fun doing the 2nd boss to the point we're thinking about picking up Monster Hunter. There's a great sense of adventure when you sail off with the purpose of defeating a boss in Valheim, and a great feel of accomplishment once you're done. There's really no milestone in 7 days that is comparable. Sure, the hordes are fun, but the aftermath doesn't change jack to your game besides you having repairing to do and less bullets to expend.

Edited March 21, 2021 by beHypE (see edit history)

[yisssnakk]

3 hours ago, morggin said:

mosin nagant is not a revolver it's a russian military rifle.

There is a Nagant revolver but the Mosin-Nagant is most definitely a bolt action rifle with a 5 round internal magazine that can be fed from stripper clips (and would be pretty darned cool to have in the game!). To the original post though, dual wield would also be cool but potentially difficult to map for - currently on the PC you have one function for attack and one for heavy attack. There could be a weapon specific mapping (say, two machete's, for example) where left and right mouse corresponds to that weapon hand and a power attack could be triggered by clicking both attack buttons at once...

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by yisssnakk
clarity/expansion (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, beHypE said:

One huge asset Valheim has over 7 days to die is that, as some have stated, time is no issue. You could be grinding the starter biome for 20 hours if that's fun to you, just casually hunting birds and deers, or you could try to rush as quickly as possible to the next biome until you finish the game (or get rekt and realise you need to prepare). This also brings a level of flexibility 7 days doesn't have. We've had days with my group where we really wanted to push it and get a challenge, and then there were days of "let's just hunt some meat and feathers and maybe do a low level cave because we need early game mats". You can't do that with 7 days. The way the game is designed, it's basically a rush against the clock to be prepared by the next horde. Sure, you can turn off hordes or just play on 2 hours days with easy settings, but then the whole challenge is gone for the entirety of the game. You can't just hop in and do whatever you feel like depending on the day and your IRL energy level, you'll have to live with the decision you made when you first started playing (unless you constantly change settings which would feel gamey to the point of being close to cheating the game).

 

In addition, the biomes really feel different, as in, different monsters, different ressources, different milestones in crafting/building. The biomes in 7 days feel like basic reskins with the odd wildlife difference, but zombies are all the same especially in their mechanics. Hopefully A20 will turn that a bit around, but unless we get special creatures for the harder biomes, just "raising the gamestage" won't give biomes a different combat feel. Oh yeah, combat. Valheim's combat is simple but it's fun and engaging. 7 days melee combat is quite frankly subpar on so many levels, especially compared to how awesome the game is in other areas. 

 

Lastly, bosses. We've had crazy fun doing the 2nd boss to the point we're thinking about picking up Monster Hunter. There's a great sense of adventure when you sail off with the purpose of defeating a boss in Valheim, and a great feel of accomplishment once you're done. There's really no milestone in 7 days that is comparable. Sure, the hordes are fun, but the aftermath doesn't change jack to your game besides you having repairing to do and less bullets to expend.

Honestly, what you're describing is just the well known difference between a story based game and a sandbox.

7D2D is not story based, so you won't get different "levels" for each story step. 

 

I agree though on the need to add more variety, if possible, but that's already being covered by the future addition of special infected and bandits.

[Demonoid74]

On 3/18/2021 at 1:35 PM, Gromit said:

Those are some meaty shotgun shells... He's going to sell whatever shotgun those are for right?

Yeah those look like some of the shells for my 42mm grenade launcher lol

[beHypE]

7 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Honestly, what you're describing is just the well known difference between a story based game and a sandbox.

7D2D is not story based, so you won't get different "levels" for each story step. 

 

I agree though on the need to add more variety, if possible, but that's already being covered by the future addition of special infected and bandits.

 

"Story-driven" is a stretch for Valheim lol, it's more of a system where 1 biome = X monsters + 1 ressource + 1 boss. But you can totally "sandbox" the experience and go visit (almost) all areas on day 1, just like in 7 days to die. The key difference in 7 days to die is that there really isn't a huge difference between say the snow biome and the forest. Blueberries, differently skinned zombies, cold weather and cougars but... that's it. Meadows and the swamps are nothing alike in Valheim, to only name a few.

 

Then again all those "story driven" elements and bandits and such are yet to come but... yeah, they have been for years now with not even a glimpse of what it will look like.

[Gazz]

22 minutes ago, beHypE said:

The key difference in 7 days to die is that there really isn't a huge difference between say the snow biome and the forest.

Yes, but that's been planned for a while now. Gamestage variation between different biomes is already possible (A19) with a simple XML mod but that's only part of it.

[beHypE]

43 minutes ago, Gazz said:

Yes, but that's been planned for a while now. Gamestage variation between different biomes is already possible (A19) with a simple XML mod but that's only part of it.

 

I know but that "mid to end game content" has been on 7 days to die's roadmap before Valheim even started being under development, not to mention Valheim has a roadmap of its own, so I think it's only fair comparing what the products have delivered as of today without taking into consideration any "will have should have"s.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by beHypE (see edit history)

[Morloc]

11 hours ago, Horatio Chachi said:

...player-built NPC settlements will be used to provide automation to things like mining/farming/crafting/defense and to defeat AI cheesing horde night strategies by having the horde target NPC's in the player's settlement. Is there any truth to this...

 

I've never seen that mentioned by anyone with authority, but I've posted suggestions along those lines on at least two occasions here. The idea seemed to be a solution to making horde night more fun and relevant while being only moderately difficult to implement.


-Morloc

[Roland]

15 hours ago, beHypE said:

You can't do that with 7 days. The way the game is designed, it's basically a rush against the clock to be prepared by the next horde. Sure, you can turn off hordes or just play on 2 hours days with easy settings, but then the whole challenge is gone for the entirety of the game. You can't just hop in and do whatever you feel like depending on the day and your IRL energy level, you'll have to live with the decision you made when you first started playing (unless you constantly change settings which would feel gamey to the point of being close to cheating the game).

Well...you can ignore the first two or three bloodmoons and stay pretty safe on the roof of larger POIs if you just want to spend time clearing POIs or doing quests, or harvesting resources. That’s 21 days of playing however you want without feeling rushed to prepare for the horde. 
 

You can also decrease the frequency of bloodmoons to once every 10 days or once every 14 days etc. 

 

7 Days definitely has a tower defense emphasis that Valheim doesn’t. I see that as them being different types of games and I wouldn’t want either to change what they are to be more like the other in that regard. I’d rather just be able to play both depending upon my mood. 
 

The boss progression is something I think 7 Days could definitely add to great effect. They could do it with bandits having a forest lieutenant, desert lieutenant, snow lieutenant, and wasteland lieutenant. Killing each one opens the way to the next and culminating in a showdown with either the Duke or Noah depending on which faction you went for. 
 

But....they could also just as easily decide to save something like that for a sequel. 

[Roland]

4 hours ago, beHypE said:

 

I know but that "mid to end game content" has been on 7 days to die's roadmap before Valheim even started being under development, not to mention Valheim has a roadmap of its own, so I think it's only fair comparing what the products have delivered as of today without taking into consideration any "will have should have"s.

 

I’m glad Valheim came out and the devs were able to play it before completely implementing their own biome difficulty progression. Hopefully, the things they like about biome progression in Valheim can inspire them as they design biome progression in 7 Days. 
 

As Gazz said, they’ve had biome difficulty progression planned for awhile and it has to be a good thing to be able to analyze the pros and cons of a popular game that already has that part of the game implemented. 
 

Same for Valheim— if they ever decide to go deeper with their own random nights of base defense, they have the benefit of having played 7 Days to Die to see what works and what doesn’t for them.