A19 Diary Discussions

[Blake_]

2 minutes ago, meganoth said:

On the other hand a tester does not get a notification if you edited your post and it is a pain in the ass to find out what exactly you edited if he notices by chance. And don't expect everyone being able to read your edits (for example Jugginator probably can't do that).

 

By making a new post in the thread you tell everyone there is new information and exactly what changed or what had to be corrected.

 

 

Not a pain in the buttocks now that we have the Edit history button, isn't it ?

 

I did change the new report screenshots to avoid inventory clutter misinformation plus added the output log of a newly created world while reproducing the bug plus edited the title and the summary to make the report clearer. So I consider your comment to be right on point with my reason why I did edit it. Anyways, checking edited posts is not a pain now that we have an Edit history log, so blocking us people from editing is just detrimental to the process of reporting.

 

When we had the old website sure, but not being able to edit is overkill because the bureoucracy it creates is slowing down the reporting more times than not. 

 

[Adam the Waster]

55 minutes ago, Jay_ombie said:

I notice in game a number of objects do not have LOD, and I suspect objects that are mineable are excluded so we don't then get the POP OUT (items disappear) as LOD isn't updated as we play and add things to the scenery as we get the POP in then. This is the same regarding the things we take out yet the LOD often remains expecting that object to still be there.

 

So I guess TFP try and balance things that the player may mine out from the map and don't use LOD for those objects.

 

This is hypothetical, and my thoughts only.

 

 

It seems to be alot of A18 things like Tool boxes, Car parts, Mobile Tool box, Trash can closed, Trashcan opened, Lights, Ligh bulbs,  and others.   

[Roland]

8 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

@faatal / @madmole

Hi! Just wanted to ask you devs if you've started working on the bandits' AI or anything related.

 

There's still confusion in the 7D2D community as to what the current A19 zombie AI is:

1) A prototype for the bandits AI that after bandits are implemented will be dialed back to "dumb" zombies

-OR-

2) The intended AI for zombies and the bandits AI will have its own way of doing things.

Thanks!

faatal has stated in the past that bandits will not use the same AI. Pathing will probably be same but the AI tasks for bandits will include taking cover, flanking, using ranged weaponry, etc that zombies would not utilize at all.

 

Other than edge cases that faatal continues to sand off the zombie AI is intended and designed for the zombies.

[Adam the Waster]

9 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

@faatal / @madmole

Hi! Just wanted to ask you devs if you've started working on the bandits' AI or anything related.

 

There's still confusion in the 7D2D community as to what the current A19 zombie AI is:

1) A prototype for the bandits AI that after bandits are implemented will be dialed back to "dumb" zombies

-OR-

2) The intended AI for zombies and the bandits AI will have its own way of doing things.

Thanks!

Molemad-"Done it's when done it"

[Jost Amman]

8 minutes ago, Roland said:

faatal has stated in the past that bandits will not use the same AI. Pathing will probably be same but the AI tasks for bandits will include taking cover, flanking, using ranged weaponry, etc that zombies would not utilize at all.

 

Other than edge cases that faatal continues to sand off the zombie AI is intended and designed for the zombies.

Thanks for the reply.

 

So the rumor that the zombie AI was just temporary and that it will be "dumbed down" was actually an urban myth lol

I can already envision a new "AI gate" on the Steam forums when they find out! 

[JCrook1028]

20 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

I've played this game for over 3,000 hours now... and I've only just leant that you can hold down the left mouse button to place down blocks instead of having to click the button every time.

Hehehehehe, that's gotta hurt.

[wolfbain5]

46 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

There is a current exploit that's been around since A18 (possibly earlier) where if you put a mod into a piece of gear like armor, a tool, or a weapon, it increases the sell price of said piece of gear for more than the original sell price of the piece of gear and the mod combined, and by a pretty hefty amount at that. Will this be patched out in A19 or A20+?

makes sense that items sold in a set or in this case already upgraded would bring a better price. I mean you buy a car, you get the radio upgrade. radio costs 50 bucks, but they charge you 400 extra...

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

Thanks for the reply.

 

So the rumor that the zombie AI was just temporary and that it will be "dumbed down" was actually an urban myth lol

I can already envision a new "AI gate" on the Steam forums when they find out! 

Well AI and pathing are pretty intermixed. The zombies HAVE been dumbed down quite a bit from where they were in A17. Technically, the long multiple pathways from them to the player still exist but faatal has made it so a lot of them "forget" the long paths and turn to destruction mode and some do random things that often make no sense at all. So most likely for pathing and knowledge of ways to get to the player the bandits will probably be closer to A17 than A19 on that spectrum and you could say that bandits and zombies share a common knowledge of pathways and how to get to the player. But then there are AI tasks and Bandits will have all new tasks completely different than zombies.

 

So there is a little bit of truth to the urban legend if you include both pathing and tasks under the umbrella of "AI" which in the minds of the players is something everyone already does.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Roland (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

46 minutes ago, Roland said:

Well AI and pathing are pretty intermixed. The zombies HAVE been dumbed down quite a bit from where they were in A17. Technically, the long multiple pathways from them to the player still exist but faatal has made it so a lot of them "forget" the long paths and turn to destruction mode and some do random things that often make no sense at all. So most likely for pathing and knowledge of ways to get to the player the bandits will probably be closer to A17 than A19 on that spectrum and you could say that bandits and zombies share a common knowledge of pathways and how to get to the player. But then there are AI tasks and Bandits will have all new tasks completely different than zombies.

 

So there is a little bit of truth to the urban legend if you include both pathing and tasks under the umbrella of "AI" which in the minds of the players is something everyone already does.

This makes sense. If I had to choose a word, I'd use "Simulated Behavior" more than AI, since that includes every type of action executed by the entities, including how they path through the world. Also, I'd say that when the zombies behave stupidly you can't call that artificial "intelligence"! 

[meganoth]

4 hours ago, Blake_ said:

Not a pain in the buttocks now that we have the Edit history button, isn't it ?

 

I did change the new report screenshots to avoid inventory clutter misinformation plus added the output log of a newly created world while reproducing the bug plus edited the title and the summary to make the report clearer. So I consider your comment to be right on point with my reason why I did edit it. Anyways, checking edited posts is not a pain now that we have an Edit history log, so blocking us people from editing is just detrimental to the process of reporting.

 

When we had the old website sure, but not being able to edit is overkill because the bureoucracy it creates is slowing down the reporting more times than not. 

 

I was specifically refering to the edit history function. Try to compare a two pages long report by looking alternatingly for differences and you know what I mean. Without using a diff utility that highlights differences you can outright forget that. And as I said, many people can not see edits from others.

 

 

 

 

 

[Kosmic Kerman]

23 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

This makes sense. If I had to choose a word, I'd use "Simulated Behavior" more than AI, since that includes every type of action executed by the entities, including how they path through the world. Also, I'd say that when the zombies behave stupidly you can't call that artificial "intelligence"! 

I'm sure you've seen this but Fataal responded to your question in the A19 Dev thread. The bottom line is that the Devs will balance Zombie/Bandit AI when everything is in the game. My read is that people who are hoping for a return to A16 zombies are engaged in wishful thinking and are likely to be disappointed if they don't readjust their expectations.

[MechanicalLens]

2 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

I'm sure you've seen this but Fataal responded to your question in the A19 Dev thread. The bottom line is that the Devs will balance Zombie/Bandit AI when everything is in the game. My read is that people who are hoping for a return to A16 zombies are engaged in wishful thinking and are likely to be disappointed if they don't readjust their expectations.

Truth is, A16 zombie AI could be much more easily manipulated than current. A YouTuber named Vedui has proven this quite extensively. Seriously, all you had to do in A16 was build a 20-30 block bridge with supports on both ends, stand in the middle, and the zombies would just gather beneath you and do nothing whatsoever. 😛

Edit: Maybe closer to 20 blocks vs 30, but you get the point.

[mr.devolver]

If you want to enjoy the view, put everything on high. If you want to enjoy the game, put everything to low. lol

[Jost Amman]

59 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

I'm sure you've seen this but Fataal responded to your question in the A19 Dev thread.

Thanks for pointing that out, I actually missed it until now because sometimes I forget to check the red dot on top of the page! 

56 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

Truth is, A16 zombie AI could be much more easily manipulated than current. A YouTuber named Vedui has proven this quite extensively. Seriously, all you had to do in A16 was build a 20-30 block bridge with supports on both ends, stand in the middle, and the zombies would just gather beneath you and do nothing whatsoever. 😛

Edit: Maybe closer to 20 blocks vs 30, but you get the point.

Yeah, I discussed with Vedui a few times on Steam... he's a good 7D2D "reporter", he always does interesting comparisons and tests. 

[mr.devolver]

4 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Thanks for the reply, I can see how this approach could be optimal (also to save precious dev time!) but what I'm worried about is that most players will see that as an inconsistency in zombie behavior rather than a plus (like I do).

 

I've already read on Steam people complaining about the current (A19) AI because they expect zombies to ALL behave the same way... so when they see 3/4 of them out of 20 going their way doing different things (e.g.: rage mode) they'll just rant about not being able to reliably build a blood moon base because they can't predict where the zombies will go.

 

As always in life (and game development) it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't".

Now that the AI is (IMO) better and more varied people start complaining exactly about that (facepalm).

 

People complain about all kinds of things. Trust me, there are people who can tell you how much they hate tetris and why.

Edited September 29, 2020 by mr.devolver (see edit history)

[MechanicalLens]

This quest location is way, WAY too far away from the trader. It's absolutely ridiculous, do y'all expect me to walk all the way over there? Absolutely unbelievable... This needs to be rebalanced ASAP. Does anyone else see the problem here? And no, it's not me being lazy. I'm not, I promise you.

 

In all seriousness though, I love that traders are within towns now.  My five quest options were of the following distances away: 55m, 101m, 72m, 191m, and 182m

[Roland]

I loved Tetris for a decade. No more.

[MechanicalLens]

14 minutes ago, Roland said:

I loved Tetris for a decade. No more.

Can't wait for your opinion on Flappy Bird.

[Kalen]

16 minutes ago, Roland said:

I loved Tetris for a decade. No more.

Context?   Has there been breaking Tetris news that I've missed?   Or is this just a random thought for the day?

[MechanicalLens]

1 minute ago, Kalen said:

Context?   Has there been breaking Tetris news that I've missed?   Or is this just a random thought for the day?

Other than Microsoft announcing Tetris Effect: Connected a few months ago, which is basically Tetris with good graphics (I couldn't keep a straight face while saying that, sorry), no, not really.

[Roland]

4 minutes ago, Kalen said:

Context?   Has there been breaking Tetris news that I've missed?   Or is this just a random thought for the day?

Two posts up from mine.

[Kalen]

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

Two posts up from mine.

The eyes aren't what the used to be.... damn getting old!

[MechanicalLens]

2 minutes ago, Kalen said:

The eyes aren't what the used to be.... damn getting old!

And yet you are perfectly capable of reading lines and lines of text... With delays in responses lasting upwards of half an hour or more, maybe I'd believe you. 😛 I believe the issue is that it is against human instinct to look up.

Edited September 29, 2020 by MechanicalLens (see edit history)

[Kalen]

2 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

And yet you are perfectly capable with reading lines and lines of text... With delays in responses lasting upwards of half an hour or more, maybe I'd believe you. 😛 I believe the issue is that it is against human instinct to look up.

You got me.... I was too lazy to read all the previous posts!  But, I'd argue thats due to old age too!

[Blake_]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

I was specifically refering to the edit history function. Try to compare a two pages long report by looking alternatingly for differences and you know what I mean. Without using a diff utility that highlights differences you can outright forget that. And as I said, many people can not see edits from others.

 

I see the problem now. Oh well. Not much of an improvement over the former website really. Just catfish fluff.