Does the battle axe create the wrong impression?

[Biscoitoso]

33 minutes ago, meganoth said:

And... you are mistaken. Miner69 is the skill, it brings 50% damage increase to melee, same as skull crusher (yes, skull crusher has some more effects). Also strength bonuses (head shot damage and dismember chance work on axes as well.

 

Firemans Almanach is the book series, but only one book directly influences combat with a fireaxe specifically. But night stalker book 3 is for all bladed weapons. By the way, there is also no dedicated book for the knifes and they count as bonafide weapons, don't they?

 

 

Miner 69 is for block damage. It is much more different than other melee weapons who have their own skills, like clubs and spears.

[seagas]

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

I don't understand. You have a cool looking battle-axe here, how much better can it be style-wise ?

So it seems you are actually complaining about efficiency, right?

 

As a weapon the axe isn't the best but with enough sex-rex it seems it could hold up very well (maybe not at end-game, but there you have alternatives, many players seem to switch to ranged anyway), and the compensation for not being the best weapon is its dual-use and a saved toolbelt-slot. It looks well-balanced to me.

 

Maybe someone should post some hard facts about the damage and stamina values and make a real case for why it is too weak.

I agree, mid to late game, the axe becomes my sole melee weapon. I do stealth builds, so bow, cross bow, SMG w/silencer as primary ranged weapon with shotty as back-up. Other weapon combinations for some POIs like Shamway or Shot gun messiah.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Biscoitoso said:

Miner 69 is for block damage. It is much more different than other melee weapons who have their own skills, like clubs and spears.

Don't guess. Start the game, read the description of miner69. It's what I did. Then I spawned in an axe, looked at my character stats which said 38 (power attack) damage. Next i put one or two points into miner69, looked again and it was 41 damage.

 

 

[Boidster]

Working Stiffs announces their new line of high-style "wood" axes, suitable for all purposes! Since we are not a licensed weapons dealer we cannot legally describe this enormous double-bladed "tool" as a fighting implement, but remember...

 

🎶When it's time for attaaacks...

don't min/maaax...

use a Working Stiffs aaaxe! 🎶

[gurutar]

leave my beautiful barbarian axe alone. it might only slay trees but it makes me feel like a big man.

[Maharin]

I actually like using axes as weapons.

[Scyris]

On 7/28/2020 at 3:24 AM, Tahaan said:

I have the opinion that the Tier 3 steel axe which looks like some kind of fantacy battle axe creates the impression that it should be an awesome weapon.

 

TFP says the axes are meant as tools primarily.  Sure I've swung it at the odd zed with success but I agree that it is a tool.

 

And I do get what TFP wants to achieve - eg a more bad-@%$*#! looking axe.

 

With that in mind would it not make more sense for Tier 2 to be a small hatchet and tier 3 to be a Fireman's axe?

 

Or if a double-bladed axe is really desired, there are some woodman's fireman's axe models to be found aplenty on the web.

The fact that we cannot use axe's and pickaxes as effective weapons in 7dtd is a really stupid thing. Look at any zombie movie/game, almost all of them have a fireaxe as a really damn effective weapon for killing zombies. All it needs to be made good in 7dtd is have miner 69'er add benefits to it in combat like how knife perks let you bleed enemies etc.

On 7/30/2020 at 6:03 PM, meganoth said:

And... you are mistaken. Miner69 is the skill, it brings 50% damage increase to melee, same as skull crusher (yes, skull crusher has some more effects). Also strength bonuses (head shot damage and dismember chance work on axes as well.

 

Firemans Almanach is the book series, but only one book directly influences combat with a fireaxe specifically. But night stalker book 3 is for all bladed weapons. By the way, there is also no dedicated book for the knifes and they count as bonafide weapons, don't they?

 

 

Sledgehammer has no books for it either iirc. Could use a line of books that make it better for breaking into things, as for bashing zombie heads it already does a really damn good job there.

[meganoth]

8 minutes ago, Scyris said:

The fact that we cannot use axe's and pickaxes as effective weapons in 7dtd is a really stupid thing. Look at any zombie movie/game, almost all of them have a fireaxe as a really damn effective weapon for killing zombies. All it needs to be made good in 7dtd is have miner 69'er add benefits to it in combat like how knife perks let you bleed enemies etc.

 

Sure, but that would be bad for balance. Other zombie survival games have no dual use of the axe as a wood cutter, so they can have it as a bona fide axe weapon. The knife has a dual role too but harvesting dead animals has not the central role that wood cutting/door breaking of the axe has. Case in point: If I don't play agility I never have a knife constantly in my toolbelt, often not even in the backpack (I use an axe instead for animal harvesting). If I don't play strength I still always have an axe in my toolbelt.

 

Gameplay/balancing trumps realism.

 

[Maharin]

17 hours ago, meganoth said:

Sure, but that would be bad for balance.

I'm not sure it would have to be bad for balance.  They could just make tool mods for axes that convert them to be more weapon-ish and have the perks associated with axes modify melee damage.  An un-modded axe would still work great for chopping wood but you could still mod it and perk-up to become Thor and Paul Bunyan's love child.

[meganoth]

7 hours ago, Maharin said:

I'm not sure it would have to be bad for balance.  They could just make tool mods for axes that convert them to be more weapon-ish and have the perks associated with axes modify melee damage.  An un-modded axe would still work great for chopping wood but you could still mod it and perk-up to become Thor and Paul Bunyan's love child.

Yes, sure. Isn't the fireaxe mod still in the game that does exactly this? If necessary the buffs for damage and debuffs for wood cutting need to be somewhat (or a lot) bigger.

 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganoth That mod reduces entity damage and boosts block damage.

[Maharin]

On 8/1/2020 at 6:23 PM, Maharin said:

I actually like using axes as weapons.

I just wanted to add that for the most part I meant this for in game.  I'm no aspiring axe murderer but I did manage to cut a deep gash into the first finger of my left hand with a hand axe while trying to cut the head off a chicken.  It was a "axident". 

[eXSe]

Yup, steel axe doesn't have that "utility" vibe about it, more like...

 

[Tahaan]

On 7/29/2020 at 11:39 PM, Roland said:

It is valiant to be looking out for all the new players but.....there are two kinds of new players. Those who just play the game and have fun and those who are min/max efficiency junkies. The first type will use the steel axe as a weapon and have fun and feel awesome. They won't really worry about the fact that there might be a melee weapon out there that has better dps and so it really doesn't matter for these folks whether the steel axe was intended as just a tool or not. The second group won't be fooled by the look because long before they ever actually use it they will meticulously compare the entity damage stats between the axe and whatever other melee weapon they have and go with the one that is better. They won't really care about appearances since all they really care about is killing zombies as quickly in as few clicks as possible.

 

 

@Roland I do wish you would not always assume MinMax at every possible oppertunity.  

This is not about what you can do or about what if effective.  Yesterday I killed 3 zeds in a row with a shovel.

 

This is about TFP stating that the axe is not intended as a weapon, and then giving it a skin of something that is clearly nothing but a weapon.

 

This is a conflict.  Either turn it into a good weapon and stop saying it is not a weapon, Or change the model so that the semantics match the intended use.

 

On a side note:

 

An Axe weapons line would be lovely.  Some people in this thread hinted at it.  You'd then have two kinds of axes - the tool axe - better at chopping doors, and the weapon axe - better for killing things.  Related to this:  I do wish the speed of tier 3 axes and clubs were FASTER not slower than tier 2.  I'd accept a penalty in damage per swing to maintain balance.

[SickPuppy]

That things classed as a tool?! 

 

Horde of angry dwarves swarming to TFP office

[caatalyst]

I didn't realise the new steel axe was a tool and so I never bothered crafting it. I just assumed it was a weapon considering it looks like it was meant for war.

I prefer the look of the iron fire axe and to be honest so far it makes an awesome secondary melee weapon even though its main function is cutting through wood. So many times my bat has died so I've pull it out and insta exploded zombie heads 🙂

 

[Roland]

5 hours ago, Tahaan said:

@Roland I do wish you would not always assume MinMax at every possible oppertunity

Then change my mind that it isn’t that issue in this case. The axe can still be a weapon if you want to use it. What would possibly stop you from using it as a weapon regardless of how it is classified?  Classification as a tool doesn’t prevent it from being equipped or used against zombies and it doesn’t prevent them from dying to it. There is only one reason not to use it: It isn’t the most efficient melee weapon. 
 

My point still stands that players who don’t come here and find out “the bad news” and who inherently aren’t concerned with efficiency and obsessively comparing the dps of axe to other will use the steel axe as a weapon and have fun with it. There’s only one reason why killing zombies with the steel axe wouldn’t be satisfying: That niggling idea that there is something out there that can kill them faster....

But show me how it’s a different issue. 

5 hours ago, Tahaan said:

giving it a skin of something that is clearly nothing but a weapon.

At first glance yes. But upon further notice you can see that it is simply pieced together with various garage parts and isn’t really a fantasy battle axe at all. 
 

They don’t want an endgame super tool. That being said, perhaps once legendaries are in you might get an axe that is also as good dps vs zombies as any other melee weapon. As an extremely rare find that would be okay for a game. 
 

4 hours ago, SickPuppy said:

That things classed as a tool?! 

 

Horde of angry dwarves swarming to TFP office

As long as they wield axes I’m not worried... 😜

[Tahaan]

14 minutes ago, Roland said:

But show me how it’s a different issue. 

 

 

Because of what I'm saying.

 

The model semantically means the opposite of TFPs official standpoint.  Whether it is effective as a weapon or not is irrelevant.

 

Let me give you another example:

 

If TFP said Spears were meant to be used as ranged weapons, and the spear model was a mace (which looks like it would be effective as a melee weapon) and I reported that the semantic meaning of the object - being a mace - conflicts with the intended purpose of the item - a spear - you would better understand it.  Of course if it is fun then let people use the spear as a melee weapon, it looks like a mace after all and we are not min-maxing, but the meaning is still wrong.

[Roland]

I understand your point. Here is mine: The only reason you know that the axe isn’t classified as a weapon is because you came here and read the developer say so. The average player would never know and happily use the axe as a weapon....

 

Other RPG games gray out items that can’t be used or prevent the player from putting a tool in a weapon slot. This game lets you do whatever the heck you want. Nowhere in game does it say “Thou shalt not use an axe as a weapon”. Therefore you can and the design doesn’t send the wrong message at all. 
 

Is it the best weapon? No.  Who is going to care about THAT?  Hmmmmmm?

[HungryZombie]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I understand your point. Here is mine: The only reason you know that the axe isn’t classified as a weapon is because you came here and read the developer say so. The average player would never know and happily use the axe as a weapon....

 

Other RPG games gray out items that can’t be used or prevent the player from putting a tool in a weapon slot. This game lets you do whatever the heck you want. Nowhere in game does it say “Thou shalt not use an axe as a weapon”. Therefore you can and the design doesn’t send the wrong message at all. 
 

Is it the best weapon? No.  Who is going to care about THAT?  Hmmmmmm?

You really think someone would make an axe with rounded blades like that to chop wood? I just looks silly for a tool.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Tahaan said:

 

Because of what I'm saying.

 

The model semantically means the opposite of TFPs official standpoint.  Whether it is effective as a weapon or not is irrelevant.

 

Let me give you another example:

 

If TFP said Spears were meant to be used as ranged weapons, and the spear model was a mace (which looks like it would be effective as a melee weapon) and I reported that the semantic meaning of the object - being a mace - conflicts with the intended purpose of the item - a spear - you would better understand it.  Of course if it is fun then let people use the spear as a melee weapon, it looks like a mace after all and we are not min-maxing, but the meaning is still wrong.

So what about the normal axe that doesn't look like a battle axe? Coincidentally axes have a history in zombie movies as a weapon. Still, for people not watching zombie movies would TFP have to change the normal axe to be more martial-looking to show to players they can use it as a weapon? Or should this be one of the things observant users might find out? Does the game have to spell out everything? Users can read the damage values of the axe, entity and block damage is listed for everyone to see. Trying out is a time honored tradition for zombie survival games and especially this one.

 

I see your point about the wrong hints given from the icon, but I see the misdirection as a minor fault and the positive effect from a cool visual as more important. The icon for nitrate powder is a lot worse IMHO, shown with a bottle when you often mine it out of the ground.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tahaan]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

The only reason you know that the axe isn’t classified as a weapon is because you came here and read the developer say so.

Have you actually read the loading screen tips?

[Roland]

1 hour ago, HungryZombie said:

You really think someone would make an axe with rounded blades like that to chop wood? I just looks silly for a tool.

Who knows? They used what they had. If you think it looks silly as a tool then use it as a weapon. You can. 

38 minutes ago, Tahaan said:

Have you actually read the loading screen tips?

Ugh....there’s soooo many of them. 😂

 

Honestly, I doubt that it even matters. People who wish to will chop at zombies and have fun doing it. 

[stample]

How is this NOT a zombie-dismembering bleed-trauma-inducing beast? 😁

 

 

But seriously, I'd love to see a proper bonus from the perk other than just the +50% damage increase.  Ideally, bleeds, but those are in the Agi line which doesn't make sense for a 2h Str item.  Can't add Skullcrusher to its allowed list, because you'd get double entity dmg bonus from having both.  Maybe a +2/4/6/8/10% dismember chance added to Miner69er?  That still only translates to about 4% against glowies, and small dismember bonus to both axes and picks would fit the theme of the items.

 

Side note:  I LOVE the new placement of flames along specified parts of the models.  Seeing flames stream off the leading edge of the axes/machetes is so much cooler than just enveloping the entire thing.

[smokingpaper]

I did a few of those quests where you kill of those frozen lumberjacks, I did it with a steel fireaxe.
Not sure because it was of the high quality axe and/or combination of the skills/books but those zombies lost their heads pretty quickly and did the job. 
So it can be used as a weapon even though it is not recommended in one of those tips you read during the loading screen.

If we talk about real life, well, woodcutters use double headed axes as well, although i must say this one looks a bit "viking battle" style instead of one you would could chop trees or wood with.

I guess those trees and lumberjacks just deserve some severe punishment by your steel axe.