Kalex Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 I feel as though we are getting way off topic. Instead of talking about LBD, why don't we discuss skills that you learn-by-using? Same damn thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSBX Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Same damn thing Nothing gets by you, does it? Lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alchemi2 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Probably... I enjoy the game as it is but am looking forward to the A18 changes coming. This is the first Mod version I've read that actually I wouldn't mind giving a go as it appeals to me and would be very different to the base game and yet the same in ways I enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khzmusik Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 The argument is that it is too grindy to hit things with some tool to improve your skills with that tool, but it is never stated that their coding cannot differentiate what has been hit. Armor leveling was bad because you could stand on cactus. No. It was bad because the system wasn't made to understand that you are being damaged from cactus. The "cactus" example, I'm pretty sure, was just an extreme example to show how undesirable the mechanic itself was. The fact that you were damaged by a cactus rather than, say, a boar, was not the problem. The problem was that players were repetitively doing things they wouldn't normally do (like deliberately getting hit by boars) just to level their skills. Coding can't solve that. Contextually differentiating between what has been hit (or what has hit the player) may or may not be possible within the current program architecture, I don't know. But even if it's trivially easy to code, it still won't solve the underlying problem. Maybe I just want to hear that it is too hard for them. Maybe I just want to hear a little humility instead of just ripping out features and pushing the blame somewhere else. The question is not whether it's "too hard for them." The question is how long it would take to "solve" it, and whether it is worth prioritizing over other features or bug fixes. Since it seems TFP were moving away from LBD no matter what, I'm sure it was not particularly difficult to answer "no." And, maybe what you're asking for is not "a little humility" at all, but even more public justification for a gameplay decision that you personally don't like. From their perspective they aren't "ripping out features," they're moving to mechanics that they prefer, and there's no "blame" to push anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldranon Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 The "Shoot-n-Loot" game play style is a popular format for many games. But because of the fully destructible environment, 7D2D could be much more involved than most games and could make it easier for realistic playstyles. However, for better or worse, I think TFP will leave a lot of that to mod'ers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Well... To be honest, if direct player trading were to be introduced to the game giving it a UI would be rather inconvenient as Roland describe in the quote. But direct player trading could easily be introduced without having to make it difficult. I would propose a design where a change to how the drop item button works, the one you press to drop an item from your toolbar. The button should simply drop the item as it does now but if another player is targeted the item should go into an available inventory slot in the other players bag/toolbar. If the other players bag/toolbar are full the item should drop to the ground. This design would enable quick trade of items, without any hassle with adding UI windows or trading systems, for that we have the vending machines. Let me be more clear about my previous answer - there's no reason for the Devs to do this. There are already bots out there that add this if you really want it ... but TBH I didn't enjoy it, but that's just me. I prefer spending a few minutes meeting up with someone and dropping down a chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 The airdrop could be a quest by itself, also making it more plausible for the setting: You find some kind of military terminal that can launch a supply drone. Once triggered, it will state that in a random time (like 5 to 48 hours) the drone will drop a supply crate. So the player needs to first raid a POI to gain access to the supply drone terminal. It elegantly gets around the question why there would be other people (that have access to aviation) but never show up in person, but magically know that you are running around there. An automated drone is a plausible alternative. .. And its using the same mechanics as implemented already, just needs that terminal and a message. I like this idea a lot. But if i have to fight to get to the launcher, I'd like to see the supply drop loot increased in quality a bit. And I think maybe I wasn't clear in my original post. I don't necessarily CARE about the fact I'm waking up naked in the middle of nowhere and that there are supply drones ... we were talking about the story line that Joel was talking about ... and I was just saying I'd like an answer to that. Personally I think the government did it, and we're experiments, like someone else said. - - - Updated - - - It's already a quest... You have an objective, a destination, and a reward. There should also be enemies attracted to the airdrop commotion. Oh my god ... I don't remember which Mod it was, I think Ravenhurst (but I might be wrong) ... when you went to the supply drop it triggered this HUGE zombie spawn, with these giant killer zombies. The first one I went to I literally peed my pants because apparently I didn't read that part of the mod notes and it scared me half to death. I screamed and scared the cat into falling off the back of the couch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Quote Originally Posted by Kage848 View Post Couldn't you just make the melee skill only go up if you hit a moving entity? The game can tell the difference between a zombie and grass cant it? Quoting this because every time this is brought up, there is never an answer, only crickets. I have always felt that the bad parts of LBD were the results of how they were implemented in the past in this game, and not inherent of the concept itself. Well, if you really want to get technical and "real" the way they teach melee combat is hitting non-living things (zombies don't count). You don't learn hand to hand combat by walking around on the streets punching people ... you learn coordination and moves by hitting stationary bags, and doing exercises to improve your footwork. You move onto bags that move more, etc, but learning by punching inanimate objects isn't immersion breaking. Thinking you can only learn how to use a weapon by going out and poking at things that try to eat your face off is pretty silly, IMO. Before you try to fight for your life, don't you think you'd spend time on a weapons range first? You're not going to go down to the katana store tomorrow and buy a katana and expect to go out on the street the next day and start ninja chopping everyone in your path, you're more likely to cut your own leg off. That being said, while I do miss a little the LBD for some stuff, I'm more a fan of the way things are now. And I don't see any reason for the Devs to try to change it at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pegasus Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 The "Shoot-n-Loot" game play style is a popular format for many games. But because of the fully destructible environment, 7D2D could be much more involved than most games and could make it easier for realistic playstyles. However, for better or worse, I think TFP will leave a lot of that to mod'ers. I actually think this is for better. Because it allows for flexibility. If you want a certain play style, chances are there's a mod out there for it. And this way it leaves the options open, instead of boxing them in. And I'm ready for them to get out of Alpha. I know they need to, and I'm 100% in support of them doing what needs to be done (as long as that whatever it is includes putting the paints back in the game or allowing for them to be modded in) to get the game finished and out the door. I don't mod, and i don't program, so I have no idea what is involved other than a LOT of time and a LOT of effort and probably a whole bunch of alcohol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gronk Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Quote Originally Posted by Kage848 View Post Couldn't you just make the melee skill only go up if you hit a moving entity? The game can tell the difference between a zombie and grass cant it? Well, if you really want to get technical and "real" the way they teach melee combat is hitting non-living things (zombies don't count). You don't learn hand to hand combat by walking around on the streets punching people ... you learn coordination and moves by hitting stationary bags, and doing exercises to improve your footwork. You move onto bags that move more, etc, but learning by punching inanimate objects isn't immersion breaking. Thinking you can only learn how to use a weapon by going out and poking at things that try to eat your face off is pretty silly, IMO. Before you try to fight for your life, don't you think you'd spend time on a weapons range first? You're not going to go down to the katana store tomorrow and buy a katana and expect to go out on the street the next day and start ninja chopping everyone in your path, you're more likely to cut your own leg off. That being said, while I do miss a little the LBD for some stuff, I'm more a fan of the way things are now. And I don't see any reason for the Devs to try to change it at this point. You _can_ learn hand-to-hand combat by trial and error, the negative reinforcement of getting punched in the face provides a definite incentive for improvement. There are plenty of bare-knuckle boxers out there who have never set foot inside a gym never mind a dojo. You can meet many of these people by visiting a large UK city on a Saturday night and wearing a t-shirt of the wrong football team. For formal-informal unarmed combat training any decent rugby match will do the trick. If you've never seen rugby imagine American football without the armoured pads and as many fistfights as a hockey match :-) As for informal weapons training the Irish sport of hurling was used for centuries to train people in sword use with fewer (deadly) injuries. There's also Morris dancing for the English whose stick techniques were used as a way for the young men in the village to train in sword techniques when the general populace was banned from openly wearing weapons. Weapons training can also be done by trail and error but if your enemy is also armed the learning curve can be fatally steep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slingblade2040 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Any chance of adding in underwater buildings with loot? Or maybe ships with loot containers? I wouldn't mind if these were part of fetch quests for the trader. It would give us a reason to get the perk for swimming and extra oxygen otherwise its kinda pointless since we don't do anything underwater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerfly Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Any chance of adding in underwater buildings with loot? Or maybe ships with loot containers? I wouldn't mind if these were part of fetch quests for the trader. It would give us a reason to get the perk for swimming and extra oxygen otherwise its kinda pointless since we don't do anything underwater. There is a chance, but how big it is we will find out when water get fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomicUs5000 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Coding can't solve that. I disagree. Anything that can be described through logic can be coded. Any one of these developers can tell you it is possible to do. Sometimes it hurts to think. Contextually differentiating between what has been hit (or what has hit the player) may or may not be possible within the current program architecture, I don't know. But even if it's trivially easy to code, it still won't solve the underlying problem. Probably not because some of the problem still exists even without LBD. The question is not whether it's "too hard for them." The question is how long it would take to "solve" it, and whether it is worth prioritizing over other features or bug fixes. Since it seems TFP were moving away from LBD no matter what, I'm sure it was not particularly difficult to answer "no." Like I said before, I appreciate that. I wish they would have just said that from the beginning. It became a flat out no when it became tiring trying to beat around the bush. And, maybe what you're asking for is not "a little humility" at all, but even more public justification for a gameplay decision that you personally don't like. From their perspective they aren't "ripping out features," they're moving to mechanics that they prefer, and there's no "blame" to push anywhere. No. It is humility. I say what I mean. I do hope that the newer systems satisfy what I miss about about LBD. I have no problem with that. This blame is in the context of the history behind this change. It moved from people are exploiting it without addressing that it's the code's fault, to that nobody should have to grind for levels when essentially at the time they just replaced the grind with a different grind (killing zombies), to finally realizing that that was exactly what happened so they add in some balance by getting xp elsewhere (to which some people are complaining about since it is possible now for miners to gain more xp than fighters), to a flat out no because it's not what they want. Most of us who enjoyed LBD were ok with the new system, but what we were hoping for is a hybrid system.... something that took the best from both systems. Kage was asking for just a small bone. A little something, not a complete dismemberment of the current replacement system. Can or cannot the code differentiate between grass and a zombie when you swing at it with a weapon? It would be nice for example, to improve my archery skill based on the number of head shots I actually pull off. If I hit a cactus with my arrow and it levels me up, it is not the fault of LBD. It is the fault of the code, and you can't tell me that is hard to differentiate a cactus from a zombie head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khzmusik Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Oh my god ... I don't remember which Mod it was, I think Ravenhurst (but I might be wrong) ... when you went to the supply drop it triggered this HUGE zombie spawn, with these giant killer zombies. The first one I went to I literally peed my pants because apparently I didn't read that part of the mod notes and it scared me half to death. I screamed and scared the cat into falling off the back of the couch. Pretty sure it was Starvation. I didn't like this at all - combined with the fact that Starvation added animals that one-shot killed you, it just made for a "death loop" where you would go to the airdrop and get the items, then get killed, then run back to the point where you were killed, and get killed again, etc. It's really too bad, because it had some really interesting NPC ideas. I never got to them, though, because you simply can't leave your base to do the necessary scrounging without getting almost immediately murdered. Played probably 100+ hours and never got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menace312 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 -snip- Most of us who enjoyed LBD were ok with the new system, but what we were hoping for is a hybrid system.... something that took the best from both systems. Kage was asking for just a small bone. A little something, not a complete dismemberment of the current replacement system. Can or cannot the code differentiate between grass and a zombie when you swing at it with a weapon? It would be nice for example, to improve my archery skill based on the number of head shots I actually pull off. If I hit a cactus with my arrow and it levels me up, it is not the fault of LBD. It is the fault of the code, and you can't tell me that is hard to differentiate a cactus from a zombie head. This is exactly what I thought would happen eventually. Change the old grindy system, but retain the parts that were good/made sense. But, TFP decided to totally change the system to a new one, without retaining what they had learned from LBD. Ultimately it is TFPs vision that makes this game good, so I'm not about to say that this change is bad. I dont have nearly enough information yet... Looking forward to A18 in this regard. BUT, I reserve the right to make observations. Which I have, and which is what Atomic is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khzmusik Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 I disagree. Anything that can be described through logic can be coded. Any one of these developers can tell you it is possible to do. Sometimes it hurts to think. My point was that it can't be described through logic alone. The game could easily solve the particular issue that was asked about, and it still wouldn't make LBD viable (to TFP) because it doesn't remove the grind. It has nothing to do with "thinking" and it would probably be better if you stopped insulting TFP developers. Like I said before, I appreciate that. I wish they would have just said that from the beginning. It became a flat out no when it became tiring trying to beat around the bush. TFP already said in no uncertain terms that they didn't like the core mechanics of LBD and want to move to a more "class-friendly" system. Joel in particular said this many, many times in these forums. If you really don't want to do the work yourself I can probably dredge up his posts. Can or cannot the code differentiate between grass and a zombie when you swing at it with a weapon? As I keep trying to tell you: This is not a problem with the code. Let's say this is the answer: "Yes, it's trivially easy for the code to distinguish between hitting grass and hitting a zombie." What would that answer tell you? Nothing - because that feature isn't getting put in the game either way. All that answer would do it cause people to ask "Can you put that in the game?" And TFP would answer, for the millionth time, "no because we no longer want LBD in the game." It would cause more drama over a subject that already has been beaten to death. EDIT: ...which I'm contributing to, so I'll stop now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerfly Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Had a pretty busy few weeks and couldn`t play, but only read around. Finally found a time to have some fun on a17.2. Hell of a fun, lots of cool moments and thanks guys for your work. You are on the right way no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Can'tadian Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Hey sorry if this isn't in the best place but can anyone answer this question for me? https://steamcommunity.com/app/251570/discussions/0/1813170373229960644/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareee Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 Any chance of adding in underwater buildings with loot? Or maybe ships with loot containers? I wouldn't mind if these were part of fetch quests for the trader. It would give us a reason to get the perk for swimming and extra oxygen otherwise its kinda pointless since we don't do anything underwater. Agreed... but a17 didn't really have any deep bodies of water...it looks like a18 will. Since quests reset anyway, maybe they could reset at a pier, and the reset would actually spawn the wreck poi so they wouldn't have to generate with the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archergod Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 Not cool dude... not cool It is not a mass multiple player game, Trading is not part of this concept. That is why they nerf the Trader so much. So I think for this game scope it is good trading system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay_ombie Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 There is a chance, but how big it is we will find out when water get fixed Don't hold your breath (ha irony) I don't think they think water is high up on the to do list. If they fix water to a degree that it at least doesn't spaz out when a block is destroyed will be a blessing. Other than that i don't see any underwater activities any time this side of A19. Call it a hunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerfly Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 Thats right. Fortunately, there`s been noone around, that begs for water, more than for balance and performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ladarian Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 You hold E and it vacuums things up too you know. E hasn't vacuumed things up in a few alphas. It does drag them to you but you have to E mash and target every single item to actually get them into your pack. I miss this feature while mining after a gravleanche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kage848 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 Killing zombies is riskier but should the reward be greater xp? Isn’t the reward a cleared and safe area or loot that was guarded but is now available? If you are just out hunting zombies to farm xp that seems counter intuitive to survival unless it was a job assigned to you by the trader for a valuable reward. IMO, no xp reward simply for killing zombies is best. Xp for completing a mission to clear them yes. Otherwise the reward is removing them as an obstacle to your objective. Nerfing zombie loot was a good step. Now xp needs to follow. Madmole, please ignore this loon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trankitas Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 It is not a mass multiple player game, Trading is not part of this concept. That is why they nerf the Trader so much. So I think for this game scope it is good trading system. I mean, Borderlands have a trading system and its a 4 player coop max. Diablo, Titan Quest, Sacred, Torchlight, etc. Non of those are MMO, all of them have trading system, so i don't know what you mean. - - - Updated - - - E hasn't vacuumed things up in a few alphas. It does drag them to you but you have to E mash and target every single item to actually get them into your pack. I miss this feature while mining after a gravleanche True. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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