Feedback for The Fun Pimps on Alpha 17

[Grue]

I know a person or two who would. Generally only the firearm enthusiasts though. I literally know a few people who have bunches of like lower receivers, upper receivers, stocks, barrels etc lying around so it does happen. 9/10 times you would find them fully assembled though which is why finding whole ones is actually more realistic for the most part, but I still think you should be able to dissemble them.

 

For that matter, you could just split the difference. Drop whole weapons that can be broken down into parts so people can mix and match just like occasionally happened in 16.4.

Then if they want mods, add in the mods to either the assembled product or individual parts, whichever works better for the coding.

[Ranzera]

Seems like if they made all guns broken and unusable and the only way to get them to work was to fill every mod slot you'd have something pretty comparable to A16. Is that something that would excite you Jacklemeyer? No incremental improvement of the gun. You find it and then have to go out and find mods to fill every slot and then HURRAY you'd have a working gun.

 

Looking past your usual troll bait...

 

A combination of the two systems would be neat. Clearly some of the mods are part replacements that act differently than stock parts.

 

I don't think anyone thinks you shouldn't find completed guns. If we're being honest, you find more assembled guns in a gun store than not.

 

So maybe you find a completed stock gun, with individual parts with individual qualities (can we go back to 1-600 with actual progression, not this pretend ♥♥♥♥?) each part contributes to the performance of the gun in its own way. The higher quality of the internals maybe affects fire rate. Different types of barrels of different qualities affect general handling (hipfire spread and whatnot) and aimed precision. Magazines affect capacity. Scopes are optional for completing a gun and of course have all the different types. And of course a dye slot for more damage, because that makes sense obviously *eye roll*.

[Roland]

Looking past your usual troll bait...

 

Honestly, I didn't mean it that way. Went back and read it from the expectation that I would be posting in that regard and changed it to hopefully sound less baiting. Sorry dude.

[Exxodous]

More Feedback on A17

 

So, I've been reading the "Constructive" posts about A17 and while a "few" are actually constructive, others seem more like the rantings of a 5 year old. Additionally in an age where the squeaky wheel gets the grease I thought I'd add my two cents to let TFP know there's another side.

 

DISCLAIMER: The following is just my opinion and in no way reflects upon the community as a whole.

 

The "not so good"

 

Weather - still kinda wonky guys. Not really a problem for me, I just modded it a bit.

RWG - Honestly at this point, pretty bad. But I'm not concerned as I'm confident changes are coming. (at least please reduce the number of radio stations and water works lol)

 

Ya, that's it from me.

 

The "What I like"

 

New AI - Non horde night, it's awesome. The paths they take to find me is beyond cool. Horde night, well it's still exploitable but build 9 fixed several and is improved. The part I like however is that I have to test several designs to find something that works. In the end there will always be a way to prepare for the horde (which is reasonable) as long as it takes time, energy, resources and thought. I think we are moving in the right direction. Veterans will find this easier, but newbies (no offence) the learning curve will be slow. Sometimes I miss the newbie learning curve to be honest. The game is at its purest during that time and is probably what attracted most of us to the game.

 

New POI's - I suppose at some point I'll see and learn all of them, but so far I keep being surprised with new layouts. Regardless of the "repetition of jumpscare" some seem to not like, for me it is still far better than the old stand in the doorway and shoot em from A16. Is it possible to make a lot of noise and draw them outside? Sure and that is your choice, you just shouldn't complain about it if that is the "choice" you make

 

New Vehicles - For us and I mean the wife and I, this couldn't be better. She sucks at controlling a motor bike and now she can just ride with me as we do quests, treasure maps, etc together. This one is an A+

 

Speaking of quests - Although I feel it still needs fleshed out, I love the concept. The risk, ie all the radiated I'm encountering for the "reward" seems a little off but I like the premise and see it's potential.

 

Stamina usage - This one has drawn lots of ire from folks. Different? Yup Manageable? You betcha! Patience is the key along with a few skill points. For me after a few days it is a non issue. I still find myself in some tight spots during fights, but isn't that what makes it interesting? A few points in 69'r and T-rex and I can mine, chop non stop especially with coffee.

 

Skill points vs LBD - This seems to be a big point of contention amongst some. It's different for sure, but in MP it works well for us. The wife does Int and gathering stuff while I kill, loot and explore. Win/Win for me. The wife has played more A17 than any other version which means so have I lol. While some LBD might be nice, don't cave on this one as the "choose a playstyle" progression works well for my crew.

 

Mods vs Gun parts - This is definitely an incredible improvement. In the past I could collect 100's of parts to "improve" my gun by damage only. (seriously guys, this was the only improvement) Now I can add a number of scopes, increase it's magazine capacity, improve the rate of fire, prevent rad regen, increase dismemberment, improve control etc. How some perceive this as a step back is beyond me. Especially with the ability to expand on the system vs the simple "more damage" that the old system had.

 

Wellness system - Admittedly after bacon and eggs I am not sure there is much need to advance the chef perk. However I like that fact that I actually need to pay attention to food and water throughout the day. I'm at lvl 90 currently and water is the only "concern" so food intake still needs tweaked imo. I'm guessing that future improvement to food will include buffs that were previously unavailable and if so would be a welcome addition.

 

Resource gathering - If it were easy in the beginning what would be the point in improving? In the first few days it's a struggle for real, but again isn't that the point. I must "improve" in some fashion or else just turn on god mode. Not trying to be crappy here, but the initial struggle is what the game is about to me. Try, fail, improve and pretty soon you've mastered survival and it's time to start anew and try a new path.

 

Xpath modding - OMG for the win. Adapting the game to your prefered playstyle has never been easier. By far the best change to date for me. Don't like the backpack size? Install a mod. Easy peasy. Home run TFP

 

I'm sure I'm missing a lot of changes but A17 is by FAR the most interesting build I've played so far. Yes it's way different but my life in general has taught me that life does indeed change and you can either adapt and thrive or be stuck in the past and fail. I suppose that's why at age 48 and my third marriage (with 7 kids and 2 grandkids), I've never been happier. Life (games) are going to change/evolve....adapt or be swallowed whole. Enjoy the ride or get off the damn roller coaster

 

So in closing to TFP, Kudo's for creating a game you envisioned and not everyone "hates" it. And before anyone else claims I'm a whiteKnighter....I'm in first as saying overall....it's kewl. (at my age I probably shouldn't say "kewl" but my kids keep teaching me new words lol, change doesn't scare me!)

[Aldranon]

Obviously, some people want a lot more from this game than it has currently. Its a safe bet most people want more to the game.

 

The Cliff Notes of most complains are this:

 

Gun parts/No gun parts - This is not only about guns, but how detailed some people want the game to be.

 

Too easy/Too hard - Hopefully the sliders should make most people happy here after the AI is tweaked a bit.

 

Finally, a reason to play:

1) Plots: Dynamic Multilayered (ideally) - I believe most want a reason to go out and risk their life when they no longer need to. ( I.E. Good Farm, Good Ammo inflow).

 

2) NPC's - A reputation system. Factions that want the players help or want his stuff!

 

 

Done!

[Jackelmyer]

Seems like if they made all guns broken and unusable and the only way to get them to work was to fill every mod slot you'd have something pretty comparable to A16. That would eliminate the incremental improvement of the gun. You find it and then have to go out and find mods to fill every slot and then you'd have a working gun.

 

Lol. Pretty much. Back to square one. Though it'd be nice to have the mods tiered like gun parts too so eventually, you could have an epic weapon.

 

I mean, there's also just changing how easy it is to get stuff including guns.

 

Make the shotgun boxes more rare (they're all over the POI's now).

 

Make a new Gun Lock Box that only have 9mm and SMG guns and/or mods.

 

Make army bases or shotgun stores (won't ever remember the whole name of that store) the only place to get sniper rifles.

 

Make army bases the only place you get rocket launchers.

 

 

Add an exception where Trader's, with high enough skills for secret stash will occasionally sell those for extremely high prices.

 

 

I think the new progression system in part wanted to kill RNG complaining. In part wanted a simplified and more obvious path to progression. Maybe. But I think it just went overboard in targeting all aspects of game play without realizing how easy some stuff became and what cool aspects of 7D2D we're being lost.

[Cirion]

Yes, I think at the end of the day... Having more unique fun things to do helps a lot.

 

When you do that, people no longer notice the "Grind" in a game because everything is fun.

 

The fact is that once you notice the grind, that means somewhere along the line, the gameplay in a game has failed to deliver fun. Games should be fun. Not grindy or feel like a job (Maybe this is why I never play MMO's anymore LOL)

 

This is why, in my opinion, artificially increasing game time by merely level gating and lowering the rate of exp progression is almost never a good solution. Yeah it increases gameplay but at the expense of fun. If increasing game time is the goal, the better solution is add more unique things to do that are interesting.

 

I now leave with a humorous quote from 7-of-9 from Star Trek Voyager:

 

"Fun will now commence!"

[Roland]

The beatings will continue until morale improves!

[Feycat]

My take on A17

 

In the midst of the people who hate it, I'd like to throw my 2 pence in. This is for me and my gaming group, who have been playing the hell out of A17 every weekend.

 

1. The new POIs - love them. I love the difficulty, I love how it now scales properly with gamestage (as opposed to early release, when we ran into 2 rad ferals, a cop and zombies bears and dogs in a barn on day 2!!) so that it becomes a real trial as a mass of rad zombies rush mindlessly at us, cutting through doors and walls and down the pre-made floor holes. Our group actually had a full wipe in one hallway of the apartment building, which we now approach with care every time because it's a massive ambush. Super good!

 

(Please leave the ranger station and forge houses as non-dungeon POIs, I love them and they make great early bases!!)

 

2. RWG: honestly, I don't have a problem with it at this point. Yes, the distribution of way too many apartment buildings, water works and cell towers is somewhat aggravating, but it's not hard to just not worry about them.

 

3. Quests: love them. They're keeping my group playing long past "we don't need loot anymore." And honestly, don't care about the loot, or the rewards. They give us a reason to go out, give us a fun thing to do. I've seen people complain that it's repetitive: so? Clearing old POIs for loot was just as repetitive. Or that they aren't rewarding enough: they're plenty rewarding if you're not min/maxing your time - and honestly, if you're here just to min-max, why even play a game with no endgame?

 

4. New zombie AI: it's fine, meh. Our group hasn't taken advantage of it to the point of making mazes, because it wouldn't be fun. We've actually had zombies breech our early walls on BM night (3 x thick cobblestone walls) and it's terrifying. I can't remember the last time we had a breech before this! They started cracking a 1 x 2 door for themselves and they all converged on the weak spot. We had to keep running laps around the top of the wall as they climbed/leapt up there with us, shooting backwards.

 

5. Resources: seem pretty balanced at this time. Early versions they felt too hard to gather, given stamina drain. They seem pretty balanced right now.

 

6. Perks/traits: I love these, honestly. I love specializing, I love the fact that the choices I was forced to make genuinely changed my gameplay. I'm the int/building/taking things apart member of the team. That meant I had no spare points for things like healing, much stamina, pack mule etc. My teammates kept me on the back line shooting and kept me safe in my light armor, I got our first vehicle because it meant I wasn't slowing them down with my slow-ass run, and I got all the pocket mods we found until I had extra points for some pack mule. Meanwhile, one of my teammates was focused on gathering and ranged, the other was focusing on sledgehammer melee. They didn't have to worry about crafting for themselves, and they kept me safe on quests. Pretty great!

 

7. Partying up. LOVE THIS. One of the best things ever put in the game. Being able to see my friends' health is great, and sharing xp is also great. And on the days I had to stay on the base to build while they went out looting, we upped the sharing range so I wasn't missing out. If only physician worked as described and let me bandage them!! And sharing quests is fantastic!

 

8. Stamina use: ugh, my bane. BUT coffee and management was the answer. I suffered because I couldn't afford to dump points in the way my friends did, but they having put points in, never even touch coffee. It's a giant PITA in early game, but as soon as you get coffee or a bike, it's manageable without putting points in.

 

9. Mods: another great thing. They add soooo much. I love my flaming cactus that shreds armor and cripples zombies so I can back up. I love my pink shotgun that sprays anti-rad bullets in a wide flat cone. I love all the pockets and padding I could put on my armor to make up for not taking pack mule, and so I could be protected without draining all my stamina. Definitely A+, can't wait for vehicle mods.

 

10. Which reminds me: VEHICLES! The motorcycle is my favorite thing you've ever added to the game. At around Day 40 we decided to move our base to a new location with more convenient access to more traders, made jeeps, loaded them up and were able to move 99% of our base in a single trip. Boy howdy, that would have taken AGES back in A16! Running over zombies and sending them cartwheeling is the best thing ever!

 

11. The loss of gun parts and zombie loot. I thought I'd hate it, but I LOVE IT. Not having a loot delivery system dumping resources on my doorstep? Yes please. Not having 2 storage boxes full of gun parts waiting for the final piece? Yes, please! Less clutter, and I never had to make glue at any point in A16 and now I love it when I get bones. In fact, I think glue and duct tape are way too common at the trader now.

 

12. Parkour: hilarious

 

Complaint: we still don't have nearly enough decorative blocks. Why is it that I can make armor out of a stop sign and not cloth pants? Or a trenchcoat? Why can I make black or plaid square couches, but not the overstuffed ones? Why can't I make the sink stands? And why are there still so few paints? Why do I put a fresh coat of paint down, and it's all peeled and cracked?

 

I miss the giant hordes we had in early release. They were a real concern. No one is nervous about 2 fat guys and a putrid girl stumbling along in the woods.

 

Zombies are still silent, it's aggravating.

 

Overall, much more challenging and fun than A16 ever was. Honestly A17 is more fun than we've had since we first started in A10 and everything was fresh and terrifying.

[Feycat]

building now is dumb and most people just build stupid structures to cheese the AI . before we had a bit of cheese and now its mostly cheese.

 

because youre forced to kill for exp the horde night is no longer special and just another day of popping exp pinatas. the horde was the core and soul of the game and the preparation for it and base building for it. now you just kill kill kill always and try to fit in resource gathering when you can. now theres nothing special because building is just about exploiting AI weaknesses. we shouldnt be forced to go after zombies all the time...zombies should come after us on horde night.

 

Uh, you don't have to build a cheese base. We haven't, and we have a nice fortress that we enjoy.

 

And how is that any different than how horde night always was? Weren't you always killing all the zombies? Weren't you getting all the loot from them?

 

Also, you don't have to chase every zombie you see. You really, really don't. Do quests, clear buildings. Hit wandering hordes if you feel like it. Leveling is quite fast atm.

[Gazz]

Stamina...

It's a giant PITA in early game, but as soon as you get coffee or a bike, it's manageable without putting points in.

Drinking lots (and I mean lots) of water/tea also helps.

 

 

Complaint: we still don't have nearly enough decorative blocks.

I know but new decorations were coming in hard and fast and such QOL features had to wait. =)

 

It's not just adding a recipe. They also need to be repairable and their harvest/selling values should ideally not be exploitable...

[Feycat]

Drinking lots (and I mean lots) of water/tea also helps.

 

 

 

I know but new decorations were coming in hard and fast and such QOL features had to wait. =)

 

It's not just adding a recipe. They also need to be repairable and their harvest/selling values should ideally not be exploitable...

 

♥♥♥♥, for me they could sell for 0. We end up turning on the cheat menu when we decorate our base so we don't miss out on replacing our retro fridge or being able to place a bathtub. Make them worth nothing to the trader, the way dye and bikes are.

[Ghostlight]

Personally I am not hung up on gun parts, but A17 needs SOMETHING other than mods to keep driving the player to explore and loot (while allowing them to slowly progress their character in a satisfying way). The only mods I do not have several copies of are the Blessed Rounds (if they actually exist), and Incendiary (and they didn't work last time I had them). And this is still early game and I haven't explored much of my map.

 

It doesn't have to be gun parts, you could go anywhere with this....

 

1) A combination of being able to craft some things but not others (e.g you can make a Cycle and Minibike but have to find parts for a Motorbike or Jeep. You can craft/buy Pistols and Shotguns but other guns must be found (would be somewhat realistic).

 

2) Introduce tier 7 quality, but tier 7 items can only be found in the world.

 

3) Introduce tiers for mods and make tier 6 mods rare as hell.

[hotpoon]

I think a good compromise would be adding "broken" weapons to the game that scrap to parts. Then you can use the parts to re-craft a working weapon.

 

So you have the realism of not having a bunch of parts all over the place, excitement of finding a broken weapon that might have the part you need in it, and the excitement of finally building a working weapon.

 

 

This would still preserve the new mod system, and just use the regular crafting system for "assembling" weapons.

 

That would be clever, and immersive.

 

 

Personally I am not hung up on gun parts, but A17 needs SOMETHING other than mods to keep driving the player to explore and loot (while allowing them to slowly progress their character in a satisfying way). The only mods I do not have several copies of are the Blessed Rounds (if they actually exist), and Incendiary (and they didn't work last time I had them). And this is still early game and I haven't explored much of my map.

 

It doesn't have to be gun parts, you could go anywhere with this....

 

1) A combination of being able to craft some things but not others (e.g you can make a Cycle and Minibike but have to find parts for a Motorbike or Jeep. You can craft/buy Pistols and Shotguns but other guns must be found (would be somewhat realistic).

 

2) Introduce tier 7 quality, but tier 7 items can only be found in the world.

 

3) Introduce tiers for mods and make tier 6 mods rare as hell.

 

Also very clever, especially point 2. There needs to be something that can't be crafted to encourage exploration, and willingness to fight radiated zombies. At this point in the game, I completely avoid them because they aren't worth the ammo and aren't guarding anything of importance.

[Roland]

Legendary level gear is already planned and will be items that can only be found or quested for and not craftable.

[Ornias]

Legendary level gear is already planned and will be items that can only be found or quested for and not craftable.

 

I just had a flashback to baal runs on D2. Full transition to ARPG almost complete. I honestly think TFP are going in the wrong direction here.

[OldManBrian]

...All I know is that AI is being worked on and what we have now is not the final product. He said before A17 came out that some old problems would be solved but that there would be new problems. For now there really is fun to be had in battling zombie dogs that find complex paths to you. If you take it at face value knowing there will be improvements your enjoyment will increase.

 

I imagine a future day when people will complain that TFP took a huge step backwards by nerfing the pathfinding abilities of dogs and zombies....

 

What about the problem of a crowd of zombies "boosting" eachother attacking a single block?

 

I'd be somewhat ok with the pathing if they at least didn't all zero in on the same exact spot and then slice through like butter. Even reducing zombie block damage doesn't help with this because you have to *really* reduce it (like to 20% or less) and then it makes single or small groups of zombies completely ineffectual against blocks. Ideally zombies would be limited on the number that can attack the same block (like 3), and the rest would either wait their turn or find another block.

[OldManBrian]

I just had a flashback to baal runs on D2. Full transition to ARPG almost complete. I honestly think TFP are going in the wrong direction here.

 

If TFP are going to expand mod\weapon types to the variety of D2 then I'd love it! BUT, I'd hate it if it was grindy like D2. Each mod\weapon should be significantly different or its just a giant grind without any real improvements. (+2%dmg here, +1.5 refire rate there, etc. Big whoop)

 

Based on a lot of the "grindy" additions\changes of a17, I too fear they might be moving towards that type of gameplay.

[BobTheBard]

How is this not different between A16 and A17? In both of them there are optimal ways to play, and if you don't play them optimally, they are harder.

 

Of course, such a statement is just a waste of time because the words themselves make the truth self-evident while not saying a single thing about the difference between the two alphas.

 

What's different between A16 and A17 is that in A16 the optimal strategy varied depending on what you wanted to do because of learning by doing. Wanted to be the best miner? Go out and mine a lot. Wanted to be an awesome scavenger? Get out there and loot. Wanted to be a gunslinger? Shoot things. Wanted to be a crafter? Spam-craft. Every approach had its own optimal path. In A17 (especially A17.0) all the optimal paths are identical because there is one universal path to progression, screamer-farming, that is leagues better than every available alternative. Want to be a great crafter? Farm screamers. Want to be a great fighter? Farm screamers. Want to be a great scavenger? Farm screamers. Because everything is now obtained through XP there exists a single optimal route regardless of profession. It doesn't matter what you want to do, farm enough screamer hordes and you can be the world's best. That's what's different.

[Cirion]

They need to be like some of the interesting legendary weapons in borderlands or something to make them interesting. A new shotgun with +10% more damage? Meh. A new shotgun that is double barreled, semi-auto, or even full-auto? Sold

[Kalarro]

What about the problem of a crowd of zombies "boosting" eachother attacking a single block?

 

I'd be somewhat ok with the pathing if they at least didn't all zero in on the same exact spot and then slice through like butter. Even reducing zombie block damage doesn't help with this because you have to *really* reduce it (like to 20% or less) and then it makes single or small groups of zombies completely ineffectual against blocks. Ideally zombies would be limited on the number that can attack the same block (like 3), and the rest would either wait their turn or find another block.

 

I agree, if a buff depending on their number should exist, it should be the opposite. Buff their attack if they are isolated. If a zombie does 100 damage to a block, and there are 5 zombies beating the same block, the block is already receiveing 500 damage. If there is a single zombie beating a block, the block is getting 100 damage. Why would you buff the 500 damage instead of the 100?

Make zombies damage our entire perimeter, this acomplishes:

1. Cooler active defense, since we need to go around the whole perimeter fighting and repairing

2. More worthwhile building, since we arent wasting 80% of the perimeter we built

3. I'd say easier AI programming, since it's harder to exploit zombies on different places than just 1 conga

4. More immersive, since it's closer to what zombies would do (the typical definition of zombies, since claiming a non existing enemy would really behave one way or another doesnt make real sense)

[BobTheBard]

If TFP are going to expand mod\weapon types to the variety of D2 then I'd love it! BUT, I'd hate it if it was grindy like D2. Each mod\weapon should be significantly different or its just a giant grind without any real improvements. (+2%dmg here, +1.5 refire rate there, etc. Big whoop)

 

Based on a lot of the "grindy" additions\changes of a17, I too fear they might be moving towards that type of gameplay.

 

This is something of a concern of mine, too. Legendaries shouldn't just be stat boosts, they should have some neat compelling effect that makes us want them beyond the simple fact 'they're 20% better.' I want a shotgun that blows limbs off, a rifle that pierces multiple enemies, a super-accurate scoped crossbow. Something that makes me go 'I don't care if its numbers are the same, I don't even care if they're worse, I want to use this.'

[Cirion]

Even better if they introduce several. here are just some more ideas i had

 

Legendary pistol - Uzzi with high cap magazine, 50 cal desert eagle...

Legendary shotgun - as mentioned in previous post double barrelled, semi auto, full auto

Legendary AR - increase magazine to 100 rounds, super fast fire rate

Legendary Marksman Rifle - 50 Cal. Magazine reduction, massive damage increase (Widowmaker from Mass Effect 2 anyone??? Love that gun lol). Kills any thing in one hit to the head, even things like irradiated cop on insane difficulty if you head shot.

Legendary Rocket Launcher - gives rocket launcher the justice it requires. massive radius and damage bonus, sets anything that survives on fire

 

some "new" guns

 

Semi-auto grenade launcher (M-32)

Flamethrower

Mounted gatling. Have to be stationary to use but massive damage and fire rate. No reloading. Ammo pre-loaded into it like a turret.

[SnowDog1942]

Legendary level gear is already planned and will be items that can only be found or quested for and not craftable.

 

A reason to need legendary gear would be better than having actual legendary gear.

[Jedo]

What's different between A16 and A17 is that in A16 the optimal strategy varied depending on what you wanted to do because of learning by doing. Wanted to be the best miner? Go out and mine a lot. Wanted to be an awesome scavenger? Get out there and loot. Wanted to be a gunslinger? Shoot things. Wanted to be a crafter? Spam-craft. Every approach had its own optimal path. In A17 (especially A17.0) all the optimal paths are identical because there is one universal path to progression, screamer-farming, that is leagues better than every available alternative. Want to be a great crafter? Farm screamers. Want to be a great fighter? Farm screamers. Want to be a great scavenger? Farm screamers. Because everything is now obtained through XP there exists a single optimal route regardless of profession. It doesn't matter what you want to do, farm enough screamer hordes and you can be the world's best. That's what's different.

 

Actually, the best way to get things in A16 was to mine. XP was super unbalanced. After a few days of mining, you could have most of the needed the perks. From there, it was quick work to up the other skills to buy the gated perks. Roland, was there a bunch of complaining about gates in A16? Seems like there should have been. (Also, I'm pretty sure that spam-crafting already had been removed for A16.)