The Gronk Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 What I'm worried about is that their engine crashes, produces errors or has memory leaks with the additional content and so they had to reduce the amount generated to overcome a fatal flaw buried in the game. On that side of things the limit is quite possibly the amount of system resources available as opposed to mismanagement of resources. What takes 5 minutes for a gaming rig to generate can take 50 minutes for a potato. The pregeneration is fire-and-forget, it's only done once. Memory leaks aren't so much of an issue in that scenario as the internal GC will clear them over the course of time if no new memory is allocated... not so much of a memory leak as a memory puddle. - - - Updated - - - Ah I didn't know POI density was actually being changed? I thought it was only being thrown around as an idea by some people here a while ago, didn't know it came from a developer. In that case, ok, I believe POI is gonna happen But will this not counteract the performance gain gained by decreasing the map size? Nope, pre-generation of settlements will have little effect on runtime performance, they are two different systems. You'll still have the same amount of system resources used as any area with a lot of buildings in sight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingSlayerGM Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 @devs or @Roland I have a question regarding looting. If it was explained before, sorry From what I understood, there are now 2 types of containers: lootable and empty. Those two get randomly placed when a POI is created. What happens after the loot respawn time expires? Do they remain the same, just the looted ones get refilled? Or are they randomly shuffled so that some that were empty before are now lootable and vice versa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crater Creator Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Also I find that by limiting the world it feels more real. With an infinite world you can travel along a road forever and just wait to see what kind of city is going to spawn in front of you this time. It starts to take you out of the world and make you realize you're just playing an infinitely procedurally generated sandbox, which for me makes me want to stop playing. With a limited world it feels more real. That's interesting, because I have the exact opposite reaction. The border is an artificial construct that takes me out of the world and reminds me I'm just playing a game with a limited capacity to simulate the real world. There may be walls to the sandbox by necessity, but they are unfamiliar: unlike the barriers most would encounter in everyday life. Speaking of which, I've gone back at least 15 pages and can't find an answer to this. If the map is now square, what's at the edge? Are the last few chunks around the perimeter still set to the radiation biome? If so, what is the actual playable area now? Is the size of this perimeter separately adjustable the way it is in A16? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanitasec Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 i dont like idea of a forced class system where i gotta be dependent on someone else to get something i should be able to do alone that ruins that game for me and end of the day not what i payed for. if the feature is gonna be in least put option to turn it on/off tks This option is xml file. You can increase max lvl, or points per lvl and then you will be able to max all stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meganoth Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 i dont like idea of a forced class system where i gotta be dependent on someone else to get something i should be able to do alone that ruins that game for me and end of the day not what i payed for. if the feature is gonna be in least put option to turn it on/off tks There is no forced class system in A17. People raise solid points against the 80% reduction of the map. It's kind of sad to see it being waved away by with: - Yes but more dense! - No you haven't seen it yet! Waved away? "Haven't seen/tasted it yet" is the same argument parents give to their child when a new food is on the table and the child doesn't even want to try it because it looks different. Now I'm not sure, you really might think the child is right and the parents are unreasonable, I do think the parents have a point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NukemDed Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 i dont like idea of a forced class system where i gotta be dependent on someone else to get something i should be able to do alone that ruins that game for me and end of the day not what i payed for. if the feature is gonna be in least put option to turn it on/off tks gnnnnnnnnnn i tried to resist ill give you dependent but bro its PAID not payed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Nice Cup of Tea Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Join date December 2014, 1 post. Freestylah spent three and a half years working on that. It's not the size of the postcount that matters, it's what you do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toores Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 How big is the Navezgane map? I mean, is the random world going to be bigger than Navezgane? Sorry if this has been discussed already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanitasec Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 How big is the Navezgane map? I mean, is the random world going to be bigger than Navezgane? Sorry if this has been discussed already. Navezgane is 32 km^2, and random gen will be 64 km^2 so it will be twice as big. I have one question. This map will be 8000x8000m, so when i will generate new map on single player I will be dropped just in the middle of it or in some range from the middle? It will be possible to be dropped just next to the edge or not? ps. its so damn hot these days, cant focus properly, so many mistakes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingSlayerGM Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Why not? From my understanding it is still bigger map then navezgane so it will still be a decent size map. Not only that but you can change the size of the map from what it will be on default. Exactly. Why are people complaining? Bigger than NevezganeYou can still make it as big as you want in the settings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Exactly. Why are people complaining? You can still make it as big as you want in the settings If they design it for that size. Then the performance needed for the "previous" size will only go up. I'd rather have they take somewhat in between. Not an 80% reduction but 30-40%. And try to balance the performance around that. Now the starting point is set way too low. If you get what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazywildfire Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 If they design it for that size. Then the performance needed for the "previous" size will only go up. I'd rather have they take somewhat in between. Not an 80% reduction but 30-40%. And try to balance the performance around that. Now the starting point is set way too low. If you get what I mean. I said a few pages back that it sucks and I see and can agree on where people are coming from. As Roland said maybe this is how they had to do it for this alpha. Who knows what next alpha will be maybe they will be able to make the map bigger by then. As of now this is probably the best way they can do at the moment. We really have no clue besides what they tell us. A map right around twice the size of Navezgane is still a decent size map and if it filled more in and not so much empty space then it will fill bigger. Not sure if you noticed several pages back when he posted a picture of the night vision. I replied and said what do they look like turned off. The reason I said that is because it looks like a POI in that picture that I haven't seen or at least it doesn't look like one I recognize. So with the remake of POI and possibly more POI it might turn out really good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 I said a few pages back that it sucks and I see and can agree on where people are coming from. As Roland said maybe this is how they had to do it for this alpha.. I'd rather not see it added to the list of "the next alpha". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaVegaNL Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 On that side of things the limit is quite possibly the amount of system resources available as opposed to mismanagement of resources. What takes 5 minutes for a gaming rig to generate can take 50 minutes for a potato. The pregeneration is fire-and-forget, it's only done once. Memory leaks aren't so much of an issue in that scenario as the internal GC will clear them over the course of time if no new memory is allocated... not so much of a memory leak as a memory puddle. - - - Updated - - - Nope, pre-generation of settlements will have little effect on runtime performance, they are two different systems. You'll still have the same amount of system resources used as any area with a lot of buildings in sight. Yeah pre-generation of settlements is of course different from run-time performance. However, with a higher density map, will the run-time performance of these settlements (enter any big city and you'll notice it), not kill any gains made in other areas? Genuinly wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingSlayerGM Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 If they design it for that size. Then the performance needed for the "previous" size will only go up. Not when you are playing. The only difference is in the time it takes to generate the world, which only occurs once, the first time you start a game. So do you wnat a bigger map? Just wait a little bit longer when you first start a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grs Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 I always hated that part about Fallout 3+ / Elder scrolls: Oblivion+. I enjoy pois but as soon as they become so piled up on one another, it becomes a horrible immersion breaker.Finding a car in Fallout 2, OMG, it was priceless! To cut it short, I beleive that the bigger the map - the better. Even if its barren in between those pois. Taking a 7DTD map reduction as a very bad news. Its a wrong turn in game dev. I hope its temporary and we will be able to choose map size ourself. I've got 32gb RAM here and 6 cores to sort it out. I dont want that stupid small map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Batman Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 They do all this just to increase the initial load time? That can't be it ^^ I'm guessing it's for the denser world. Which could totally screw over MP servers needing even more RAM. When you want the old sized worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingSlayerGM Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 They do all this just to increase the initial load time? That can't be it ^^ I'm guessing it's for the denser world. Which could totally screw over MP servers needing even more RAM. When you want the old sized worlds. Once the world is generated, it does not matter for performance whether it is 100Km^2 or 1000000Km^2. The only thing that matters is the portion of world loaded around your character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gronk Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Yeah pre-generation of settlements is of course different from run-time performance. However, with a higher density map, will the run-time performance of these settlements (enter any big city and you'll notice it), not kill any gains made in other areas? Genuinly wondering. Most of the extra work will be done by the distant terrain system which is far faster and more efficient than the local terrain system. The slowdown should be negligible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedo Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 TL;DNR - You've already got it pretty good. You might be getting better. Nobody revive the rest of his post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaVegaNL Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Most of the extra work will be done by the distant terrain system which is far faster and more efficient than the local terrain system. The slowdown should be negligible. Yeah but in A16, this slowdown is real. If you enter a city with multiple skyscrapers, you'll be getting a big hit to your performance for a certain time. Have the systems regarding this issue been changed in A17 (distant terrain, like you mentioned)? If not, then there will be similar performance issues in A17. Worse, even, since there are more settlements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gronk Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Yeah but in A16, this slowdown is real. If you enter a city with multiple skyscrapers, you'll be getting a big hit to your performance for a certain time. Have the systems regarding this issue been changed in A17 (distant terrain, like you mentioned)? If not, then there will be similar performance issues in A17. Worse, even, since there are more settlements. The slowdown you're seeing is due to the local terrain system, not the distant terrain system. Okay, let's put this into perspective. Each settlement is around 1km^2 in size, depending on your settings the local terrain system is around 0.5km^2 at most. Each settlement should be around 1-2km apart. You'll never show more than a portion of a single settlement on the local terrain system at any given time. The problems with large buildings being shown by the local terrain system will still be there but you will never show more buildings than you do now. Large buildings on the distant terrain system aren't a problem because it's a static, simplified, mesh instead of a fully rendered voxel building. There's been a distant terrain system in place for quite some time now. You know when you go out scavenging, come back, and there's a mesh covering where you've cleared blocks for your base? Most noticable by a vertical surface with bands of colour if you've dug a trench. That's the distant terrain system not being destroyed when you get too close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaVegaNL Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 The slowdown you're seeing is due to the local terrain system, not the distant terrain system. Okay, let's put this into perspective. Each settlement is around 1km^2 in size, depending on your settings the local terrain system is around 0.5km^2 at most. Each settlement should be around 1-2km apart. You'll never show more than a portion of a single settlement on the local terrain system at any given time. The problems with large buildings being shown by the local terrain system will still be there but you will never show more buildings than you do now. Large buildings on the distant terrain system aren't a problem because it's a static, simplified, mesh instead of a fully rendered voxel building. Thanks for the analysis! My issue is not with the magnitude of the slowdown, but with its frequency. The slowdown occurs in both our analyses due to the fact that resource-consuming buildings are located in the local terrain system. Makes sense. If the POI/city density gets increased, one can expect more instances of this slowdown occurring over a given timespan (the magnitude of this slowdown is not affected). Hence I'm expecting more often slowdowns and performance issues, not per se stronger ones. I would prefer a 30 FPS drop every 10 minutes over a 10 FPS-drop multiple times a minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gronk Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 Thanks for the analysis! My issue is not with the magnitude of the slowdown, but with its frequency. The slowdown occurs in both our analyses due to the fact that resource-consuming buildings are located in the local terrain system. Makes sense. If the POI/city density gets increased, one can expect more instances of this slowdown occurring over a given timespan (the magnitude of this slowdown is not affected). Hence I'm expecting more often slowdowns and performance issues, not per se stronger ones. I would prefer a 30 FPS drop every 10 minutes over a 10 FPS-drop multiple times a minute. A POI is usually a single building in the countryside, it's rare to find a skyscraper on the side of a hill. There's likely to be a few changes to the settlement generation system but, thankfully, the buildings of a town in that part of the world are usually low and spread quite far apart (especially for someone used to urban British living). You should be able to avoid large buildings and fps drops pretty easily if know what's causing the problem. I sometimes play purely in the countryside, only going to small towns when absolutely necessary. If there isn't enough countryside between POI's and towns it should be pretty simple to spread them out a bit in the xml. With the correct settings in the new system you should be able to generate a map with even fewer causes of fps drops and more countryside than you can throw a pile of silage at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillls Posted August 2, 2018 Share Posted August 2, 2018 I swear they purposely do things every alpha update to mess with the timing so you have to relearn how to melee. This time will be no different with the added variables of: 1) You just don't know when they're really dead now with the ragdolling and removal of the enemy HP bar 2) They can hit mid-animation which makes for getting sucker punched if you're battling the way you're used to 3) You have to have the cursor exactly on them when the hit lands to actually hit them. Hits are much less forgiving. 4) Power attacks are tempting but tough and you will take hits trying to land them. I'm just warning people to have medkits and beer handy during the first few hours of new-update-melee-timing-adaptation because the learning curve is real. Sometimes you can't tell if zombies are dead (really dead) in Alpha 16. I was facing off several groups of a hoard that chose to attack me in daylight at my new fort. The angle of attack was through were a river joined. The one in the last group, a former cheerleader, last of one of the groups, attacked. I hit it and it went down. Then hit it again, knocking her arm off. It did not make a sound. So I was facing down two Big Hungry zombies coming up the bank when I get hit in the side by the one arm zombie. Totally messed me up and had to change angles of attack. Still won though. But anyways... To Roland and TFP's who (think) they can made the next group of zombies challenging. I say BRING IT! - - - Updated - - - Ambient occlusion and occlusion culling are two different features. Ambient occlusion: Occlusion culling: Wow nice. Thanks for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.