Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Doombringer101]

It's not about realism or immersion. The game should respect its own rules. That's what it's all about. It shouldn't throw everything overboard just to create a threat.

 

Oh I agree not 'everything overboard', but that's not really the case here (this is all just mechanics spitballing really, the 'reason' why the radiation/dirt phasing zombie/whatever they pick occurs is yet to be explained/fleshed out and players either accept the 'reason' or they don't etc. etc.).

It's a game, some things are more 'gamey' than others, like Gazz's concrete example.

[Gazz]

That's at a minimum part of the loot balance issues. There needs to be a way to scale up loot with a player level. Real late game should be more about these mini dungeons just for the sake of doing them. But if they had mad stacks of Duke coins, that'd be pretty awesome too. I kinda hope treasure hunting dies and finding crazy good loot becomes a real game play rich task.

Everyone wants to get to that point.

 

Problem so far: We did not have any kind of rare and amazing loot to put in these places.

That is going to change.

[Janna3921]

Roland, if this is out of line, seen as negative or wrong, delete this and my thread in the general discussion board.

 

I posted in the General Discussion thread a question to those who choose to live underground on reason, for information. I am asking, hoping, requesting that anyone who posts there refrain from making negative remarks, I placed it there to keep this a place free from becoming a #gate of arguing over whether a player should be allowed or not. The topic here is important, if, when the fun pimps decide to make it unsafe, or try to, it can help them maybe to work out a way that all can see as a good thing. A place to see the other players side without those against it trying to force them to agree with them and it become a war zone.

Now, to backtrack and ketchup on the posts from page 154.

[sillls]

Frankly I think that zombies popping out of the ground around the player in an underground area sounds nuts.

I really think that there should be another way.

 

Perhaps if they attacked hatches to get inside.

[art336]

Clean tubs

 

 

 

 

 

 

Will it be possible to have bathtubs that are, well, you know, clean?

Otherwise I'll just keep washing off in the river that the bears use with all of the zombie guts.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Underground is not completely safe. If there is, say, a ladder or stairwell or ramp going down that you have, zombies will eventually get to it.

It is mostly safe, but heck, even on non horde nights I have screamers running around above my base. On one map, my underbground base was only about ten or fifteen blocks from a body of water. I had screamers up there all day summoning hordes, making big holes and tunnels.

[Maharin]

If the gameplay works then sorry, but... screw realism. It's why you can carry 30000 tons of concrete without using your hotbar.

 

Screwing realistically would certainly alter the gameplay.

[Menace312]

Screwing realistically would certainly alter the gameplay.

 

Yes but to the better... So still good

[Royal Deluxe]

I hope Royal Deluxe is right that it's a tanning station.

Maybe like a TV it is a Tanning station without extra abilitys, Grafic only.

 

I am not against Gore Blocks to make a Psycho´s house.

But, its very low on my list of prioritys. I think we can use the Block iD´s for more sensefull items.

Like the 50% steps

Its a shame that most of them are removed. i need them for empty wall corners.(Double wall of half blocks) at least from Concrete upwards

[Aldranon]

Whelp, know who your making the game for.

 

IMO:

PvP FPS players: Maybe the most populous and most finicky, they will drop a game in a hot second when the adrenalin rush stops.

RPG players: More loyal and some will stay with a game for life.

Strategy/War gamers: Somewhere between the two in loyalty, they grip a bit.

 

You can make another "shoot-em-up" game, but voxels seem to be great for RPG players.

 

If you make the game like some wacky cartoon, I'll pass.

[Janna3921]

If the gameplay works then sorry, but... screw realism. It's why you can carry 30000 tons of concrete without using your hotbar.

 

I agree, we play to get a break from realism. That's not to say there should't be some aspects of realism, hunger, thirst, injuries and others, but the reality is, pun intended, you couldn't play the game if we had realism in it, it would take months to build a base, if not years so do so with SP.

[Quantum Blue]

Whelp, know who your making the game for.

 

IMO:

PvP FPS players: Maybe the most populous and most finicky, they will drop a game in a hot second when the adrenalin rush stops.

RPG players: More loyal and some will stay with a game for life.

Strategy/War gamers: Somewhere between the two in loyalty, they grip a bit.

 

You can make another "shoot-em-up" game, but voxels seem to be great for RPG players.

 

If you make the game like some wacky cartoon, I'll pass.

 

+1...

[Prisma501]

Everyone wants to get to that point.

 

Problem so far: We did not have any kind of rare and amazing loot to put in these places.

That is going to change.

 

oooooh Epic loot FTW!

[Tin]

Quote Originally Posted by Jackelmyer View Post

That's at a minimum part of the loot balance issues. There needs to be a way to scale up loot with a player level. Real late game should be more about these mini dungeons just for the sake of doing them. But if they had mad stacks of Duke coins, that'd be pretty awesome too. I kinda hope treasure hunting dies and finding crazy good loot becomes a real game play rich task.

 

Everyone wants to get to that point.

 

Problem so far: We did not have any kind of rare and amazing loot to put in these places.

That is going to change.

 

sweet!

[Quantum Blue]

Not really, you could place concrete walls near the surface and in the lateral accesses. So you couldn't SAY that it tunneled from the surface (unless you're going to say that the zed's used a concrete mixers to repair the player placed walls).^^

 

A spawn next to my underground base is essentially the same as a spawn on my head.

 

To me, there is just one crucial difference: In the latter case, you can see that the game cheats you (so actually, it's an honest solution) whereas underground spawns feel as if the devs take me for a fool.

 

I suspect you meant the 'spawn on my head' in a non-literal sense...

 

Since I can't get past zed kill 427 in my RWG game (A16.4 b2), last night I started a new one (A16.4 b2) in Navezgane. (To see if I could get past the 427 kill crash)

 

Started right next to the mine (? Building that has a conveyor go thru a wall and then down into ground.) I was clearing out for like the third time (just the above ground section, I hadn't gotten to the lower part yet), and was removing the final gore block down on the conveyor - right next to the guard rails. (corner). As the gore block cleared, 3 new zeds popped in; 2 in room other side of rail, and one on my head. I was in sneak position. (night time, I am a wus, trying to avoid multi-spawning zeds, whatever) I could look up and he was literally on top of me. He was 'talking' but not aware of my presence.

 

I pondered the situation and decided to uncrouch. As the room is tall he wasn't bumped off, but became aware of me. I quickly thought that I would try to match his movements as a little mini-game. He moved along the rail on the conveyor ledge and I was able to match him. But then he was moving of the ledge and as I matched him he 'fell' off.

 

He seemed pretty upset and would not participate in a civilized discussion, so I dispatched him.

 

I wish I had thought to take a screen shot...

[Seaside]

Frankly I think that zombies popping out of the ground around the player in an underground area sounds nuts.

I really think that there should be another way.

 

Perhaps if they attacked hatches to get inside.

 

I agree. Have them go at the hatches. A few hundred feet underground should be safe unless zombies follow your route in.

 

That being said perhaps having bandits (fairly rarely) dig to get under your base to get past your defenses might be cool.

Have them dig slowly at the speed a player can dig. That would give the player a cause for having to patrol around the outside of his base to look for bandit tunnels.

 

They could even plant TNT if not caught in time.

[chaosterone]

My problem with this is that they would also damage the buildings they are in and have a chance of destroying loot. What do you do if wandering zombies hit mined military bases...

 

Virtual zombies are just a data point, so technically they're not in buildings either. But I see your point, destroyed loot is always bad.

[Lonestarcanuck]

will we be able to put down our own sleeper blocks? I would love to design a dungeon/maze/other structure that has sleepers that trigger when you are XX blocks from it or NN seconds after you move away from it.

 

Make it so #1 (TFP)!

[Royal Deluxe]

Frankly I think that zombies popping out of the ground around the player in an underground area sounds nuts.

I really think that there should be another way.

 

Perhaps if they attacked hatches to get inside.

 

Priority list if no other target:

Doors

Hatches

Ladders

Frames

Woodblocks

Flagstone Blocks

....

[sillls]

I agree. Have them go at the hatches. A few hundred feet underground should be safe unless zombies follow your route in.

 

That being said perhaps having bandits (fairly rarely) dig to get under your base to get past your defenses might be cool.

Have them dig slowly at the speed a player can dig. That would give the player a cause for having to patrol around the outside of his base to look for bandit tunnels.

 

They could even plant TNT if not caught in time.

 

Ah. When ever you have uninvited guest. Always give them the gift of TNT.

That always goes out with a bang!

[Jackelmyer]

If the gameplay works then sorry, but... screw realism. It's why you can carry 30000 tons of concrete without using your hotbar.

 

Realism is fun's #1 killer.

 

It's why we have sayings like, "S*** just got real!".

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

No worries. I know the long multi-part posts are more cumbersome, but when there's 10+ pages of activity in a day I want to respond to, using that multi-quote button is my only chance of keeping up.

 

Nah I get it. Was pretty much just mess'n with ya.

[Jackelmyer]

Someone had the idea of virtual zombies. This could be used to simulate spawns outside of the accessible area (so basically in the radiation zone). You could use a greatly simplified model to calculate those virtual (and persistent) zombies and their movements. All the game has to save are their locations, directions of motion and zombie types. Using this approach it should be possible to simulate tens of thousands of zombies populating the world.

 

Do you know what I mean? I know my description is woolly.^^

 

I hope they're only populated in usable parts of the world as opposed to the radiation no go zone.

 

My guess is that if there's this virtual map of zombies, it's to mitigate things like

 

* teleporting zombies

* Zombie Shell game (approach volume, zombies spawn, back away, despawn, approach, different Zombies spawn in different locations.

* Full volume respawns when a volumes not cleared

* Spawn Point expiration times for volumes to full respawn and reset with new experience.

* Manage zombie spawn distance from player bases (noted by Pille - good point)

That's my take on why something like this would be implemented. Not for more zombies.

 

Everything I can recall hearing about why we don't have hundreds of zombies in play at one time is due to system performance, which I assumed to be an issue around system resources used for rendering and AI.

[Jackelmyer]

will we be able to put down our own sleeper blocks? I would love to design a dungeon/maze/other structure that has sleepers that trigger when you are XX blocks from it or NN seconds after you move away from it.

 

Make it so #1 (TFP)!

 

You already can. Go look at the Modding and Prefab sub forum.

[Gnomaana]

Someone had the idea of virtual zombies. This could be used to simulate spawns outside of the accessible area (so basically in the radiation zone). You could use a greatly simplified model to calculate those virtual (and persistent) zombies and their movements. All the game has to save are their locations, directions of motion and zombie types. Using this approach it should be possible to simulate tens of thousands of zombies populating the world.

 

Do you know what I mean? I know my description is woolly.^^

 

If the virtual zombies don't interact with the world in any way until their chunk is loaded, exactly what is the difference between keeping track of them constantly and spawning them in with the chunk load? By the way, the correct answer is "It makes no difference." It is just more work for the CPU to track constantly with no actual in game benefit.

 

Unless I'm completely missing the point of course.

[Pille]

I hope they're only populated in usable parts of the world as opposed to the radiation no go zone.

 

My guess is that if there's this virtual map of zombies, it's to mitigate things like

 

* teleporting zombies

* Zombie Shell game (approach volume, zombies spawn, back away, despawn, approach, different Zombies spawn in different locations.

* Full volume respawns when a volumes not cleared

* Spawn Point expiration times for volumes to full respawn and reset with new experience.

 

That's my take on why something like this would be implemented. Not for more zombies.

 

Everything I can recall hearing about why we don't have hundreds of zombies in play at one time is due to system performance, which I assumed to be an issue around system resources used for rendering and AI.

 

I was trying to say that the radiation zone could act like an infinite source of zombies. So they would spawn there and start their simulated journey to a random point within the usable area. Unrelated remark: You could increase the probability for points in city area to simulate a high population density.

Imo virtual zombies would be able to completely eliminate the problems you've mentioned (not just mitigate them) (at least in theory).

 

I wasn't thinking about getting more zombies btw. 'tens of thousands of zombies' was just an arbitrary value but you need a lot of virtual zombies due to the map size.

 

 

If the virtual zombies don't interact with the world in any way until their chunk is loaded, exactly what is the difference between keeping track of them constantly and spawning them in with the chunk load? By the way, the correct answer is "It makes no difference." It is just more work for the CPU to track constantly with no actual in game benefit.

 

Unless I'm completely missing the point of course.

 

See Jackelmyer's points (*). Moreover, this could be used to avoid zombie spawns in player bases.

[Jackelmyer]

I was trying to say that the radiation zone could act like an infinite source of zombies. So they would spawn there and start their simulated journey to a random point within the usable area. You could increase the probability for points in city area to simulate a high population density.

Imo virtual zombies would be able to completely eliminate the problems you've mentioned (not just mitigate them) (at least in theory).

 

I wasn't thinking about getting more zombies btw. 'tens of thousands of zombies' was just an arbitrary value.

 

 

 

 

See Jackelmyer point (*).

 

Ah gotcha.

 

None of this virtual map stuff matters right now anyway. This is all presumptive based on Roland being a freaking tease. There probably isn't a virtual map and the closest thing to it is a way point system providing a Guppy Zombie paths to various toilets.