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Developer Discussions: Alpha 17


Developer Discussions: Alpha 17  

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  1. 1. Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

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A16 made so much sense by leveling a skill line by repeating the same action again and again. Getting better with the bow by using it and developing perks through using it. Now you magically spend 1 point in an area and get better at it. This is pure garbage at this point.

...

So.. Does anyone know WHY?

It was pretty realistic... and horrible gameplay.

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It was pretty realistic... and horrible gameplay.

 

As a dev team, do you guys feel that the current system is what players want? How's it going, numbers wise? Sincere question; I'm personally ambivalent because I just mod it how I want to, but wanted your take on it.

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See my above post....basically in a nutshell ...we dont like change.....i think the game handcuffs players now and forces them to play the game in a direction that the player may not necessarily want to go. you are right....you have to go hunt zombies now in order to get the points you need to survive or to raise the skills you want to. Too restrictive and not a free choice of play.

 

i disagree. you can spezialise pretty well now. yes, you need to put few points to every attribute to be good, but you do not need to go up to 10 lvl each attribute. mining gives decent xp too and at least some upgrading gives xp. in my opinion, xp from zombies needs to be lowered and other activities bit more xp, but defenately not to a16 way, when you dig all night in desert and gain 4 levels or more.

 

edit: i never go zombie hunting. they come to me. my activities draw them in. bigger poi's has more z to kill=more xp and more loot.

Edited by wildaxeman1 (see edit history)
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i disagree. you can spezialise pretty well now. yes, you need to put few points to every attribute to be good, but you do not need to go up to 10 lvl each attribute. mining gives decent xp too and at least some upgrading gives xp. in my opinion, xp from zombies needs to be lowered and other activities bit more xp, but defenately not to a16 way, when you dig all night in desert and gain 4 levels or more.

 

edit: i never go zombie hunting. they come to me. my activities draw them in. bigger poi's has more z to kill=more xp and more loot.

So because sand and snow gave to much xp. We had to get a new skill system.....makes sense

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In all seriousness, is there a game out there with a balanced skills by doing system that doesnt involve grinding?

 

The last game I played long term with a similar system was an mmorpg called ultima online. They had a decent skill by doing system but it was definitely grindy and a large population of players would macro their skill ups. (Unattended skill use). A key element of that system was a diminishing gains variable the higher your skill improved.

 

Looking back at that makes me realize how tedious that type of gameplay was actually. I guess one person's tedious is another person's fun?

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You guys know what they say about opinions? Well here is mine, the game in it's current state gives you something to work towards. The level "gates" can be pushed up to very fast and you do have choices of how to reach them. I actually quit playing the game during alpha 16 because it was boring. You had top quality guns and tools by the time the first horde night come along and after that it was just rinse and repeat. So give the devs a chance it is not all in stone yet let them have a break for the holidays and start fresh in the new year.

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You guys know what they say about opinions? Well here is mine, the game in it's current state gives you something to work towards. The level "gates" can be pushed up to very fast and you do have choices of how to reach them. I actually quit playing the game during alpha 16 because it was boring. You had top quality guns and tools by the time the first horde night come along and after that it was just rinse and repeat. So give the devs a chance it is not all in stone yet let them have a break for the holidays and start fresh in the new year.

The voice of wisdom.

I used to mod A16 just because of the boring sides. In A17 and after 50 hours, I just removed the abiliy to craft guns and it forces me to explore more and more. I still find new POIs when I thought I saw everything. Just for that, this alpha is incredible.

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For me anyway it's not so much the grind, I don't mind that too much but it's dumping points into attributes that I'm not using just to reach a sub perk.

 

I'm not one to rush the forge or workbench, I like looting/exploring to find working ones. I'm playing a melee build, but I have to dump points into Intellect and Perception (ranged weapons) just to get to vehicles and loot/wrench better.

 

I'm thinking of my next experimental build character and like to go for a sneaky ranged nomad relying on hunting, I'm gonna sacrifice all Intellect and melee, but I still need to waste points on Strength to unlock backpack and Fortitude to get to Huntsman perk to get more animal meat. I dunno maybe TFP had in mind for us to play more of jack of all trades instead of specializing.

 

Certain perks locked under attribute gates feels a big hindrance, and it feels the wrong way to extend the game. Adding challenging content and different ways to unlock perk levels would be way more enjoyable than grinding xp. It's even made me look at buying other games, I feel so unfaithful.

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You guys know what they say about opinions? Well here is mine, the game in it's current state gives you something to work towards. The level "gates" can be pushed up to very fast and you do have choices of how to reach them. I actually quit playing the game during alpha 16 because it was boring. You had top quality guns and tools by the time the first horde night come along and after that it was just rinse and repeat. So give the devs a chance it is not all in stone yet let them have a break for the holidays and start fresh in the new year.

 

I agree, and i really like the loot drop option at 25%, really makes u work hard to get anything. But that's exactly what I mean, i don't want to feel over powered by being able to use guns and melee and build things, just because I want to have a bigger backpack, loot better or play with new vehicles.

 

I'm actually pro on making things harder so we can't go down all these attribute trees. But currently we are being made to go down all attribute trees.

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Example I want to focus on a totally melee looter

 

Okay, you'd want Strength and Perception

 

but I have to waste points on ranged weapons just to improve my looting

 

Wat. You don't have to put any points into ranged perks, just buy up your Perception and buy the Lucky Looter perk. You get a little accuracy/dmg on ranged from having a higher perception, but that eagle-eyed eidetic memory is also what helps you find the best loot.

 

or dump points into intellect just to get better transport

 

Oh, so you want to be a totally melee looter who also can build vehicles. Well yeah you're going to have to spend points on building vehicles then.

 

Or I want to try a passive engineer/builder relying on trader and traps

 

Great, in that case you'd want Intellect and probably Fortitude.

 

but I need to dump points into melee strength or play with just 2 rows of backpack.

 

Oh, so you want to be a passive engineer/builder who can also carry a bunch of stuff. Then yeah you're going to need some Strength. Or, since you're buying up Intellect, use vehicle storage instead of inventory storage.

 

The A17 system is a cousin to almost every RPG system out there. Earn XP, get skill points, spend them on attributes and perks. Wouldn't surprise me if the D&D Player's Handbook was sitting on a desk at TFP. It's tried and tested, though obviously it needs to be balanced (and I'm not arguing A17 is properly balanced yet - IMO it's not).

 

I think specializing in an SP game is necessarily more difficult than in a co-op (not free-for-all PvE, but true co-op) game. If you're all alone, you kinda have to be able to heal yourself a bit, and craft a few things, and cook food, and shoot/hit zombies. You can kinda be stronger at a few things, but it's probably going to be difficult to completely ignore more than one attribute.

 

I also think that would be a difficult thing to balance out of the game, by which I mean to balance it such that SP can specialize just as much as co-op MP without breaking the game. It's baked into the survival aspect of the game, and complicated by the fact that any SP game can become an MP game in an instant. Every client is a server if it wants to be.

 

It would be great if we had different alternatives to reach these perks, maybe trader stocks vehicles at very high prices or maybe we can gather difficult resources + high dukes so he can build 'if' he has a working bench. Or maybe more fleshed out quests for certain rewards.

 

I think those are interesting ideas that could help the SP player specialize more deeply. Note that extra inventory space can be had through armor mods and there are various ways to increase attributes and (temporarily) gain perks without buying them through points.

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This game gets really good when you set it to run the day and walk at night.

 

I really like this idea... the fact the sun heats up their blood gives them more energy is more plausible than the current gameplay. Kind of like lizards and other cold blooded animals. I am trying this to spice things up a bit!

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I followed the experimental builds since B199, and I basically satisfied with the new system although with some reservations on removing the learning by doing system. It is new to explore anyway, better than repeating old A16, isn't it?

 

But I would like to suggest a change on the food system. I do like the food concept in A16 that you eat good to get high health points, which makes food more valuable than just being used as a secondary first aid items. Basing on the concept you actually could have created more interesting gameplays such as more recipes, advanced materials that are hidden in dangerous places, etc, which can better motivate the players to challenge for higher HP.

On the other hand, the A16 food system can be exploited that might be the reason that you change it to the current system, so I am thinking maybe you can modify the system as:

 

1) Keep the food quality - max HP relationship, but do not adjust max HP instantly

2) Evaluate the overall food quality that a player has taken for a day every morning, and adjust the max HP by a number such as -2, -1, 0, 1, 2.

 

With this system, players are rewarded for eating good food and punished for taking canned stuff every day. What do you think about it?

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I disagree with this. a17 spent an entire year in development, the staff was increased three fold and tons of content were added. They spared no expense.

 

Thank you for getting it.

 

I actually really like A17 I think its a good direction, fine tuning is needed but it looks good to me. I wouldn't mind a little less dungeon style to normal buildings but I play on random gen and have not checked out Navezgane to see what the %'s are there.

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I'm thinking of my next experimental build character and like to go for a sneaky ranged nomad relying on hunting, I'm gonna sacrifice all Intellect and melee, but I still need to waste points on Strength to unlock backpack and Fortitude to get to Huntsman perk to get more animal meat.

If you put any effort - not skill points - into hunting you end up with way more meat than you can use.

You can unlock 15 backpack slots with mods so you don't need a lot of strength.

 

Besides, having 3 or 4 points in "other" attributes is far from being a Jack of all trades.

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Thank you for getting it.

 

I actually really like A17 I think its a good direction, fine tuning is needed but it looks good to me. I wouldn't mind a little less dungeon style to normal buildings but I play on random gen and have not checked out Navezgane to see what the %'s are there.

 

Mostly dungeon style, since stable released, I've yet to find a normal house. Used to be a couple, but they were redone. Granted, some of them are like 2/3 rooms and just have to find out how to get in the building (well, entrance that you can get in without having to destroy something), but it's not then super close quarters or anything. I like Navezgane more than RWG, at least till they work out their bugs and all.

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If you put any effort - not skill points - into hunting you end up with way more meat than you can use.

You can unlock 15 backpack slots with mods so you don't need a lot of strength.

 

Besides, having 3 or 4 points in "other" attributes is far from being a Jack of all trades.

 

So if you can get 15 slots with mods, and it doesn't go over the 45, then getting 5/5 Pack Mule and having those mods isn't really helpful. Though if you are already planning on getting all the backpack mods, then you would only need 3/5 to max inventory. But having the mods would mean that if you lose strength which then drops Pack Mule, it means they don't become encumbered. It'd be cool if say there was 60 slots max. Pack Mule does enough for 45, full backpack mods does full 60.

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It was pretty realistic... and horrible gameplay.

 

I would have to disagree completely with your statement. I thought it was pretty realistic and FANTASTIC. It did everything you all claim to want. It slows down end game progression, it allows customization, and gives players the freedom to play the game how they want. Your new system locks players into doing one thing only. Killing Zombies. You have removed individuality from players, we all now do the exact same thing to progress and are forced to play that way even if we don't want to.

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Ranger Stations are still in, and still make great starter bases. Fill in the windows with flagstone, remove the inner stairs, but KEEP the outer ones to start.. by bloodmoon should be able to have it ready, and the entire first 3 blocks are already flagstone, just upgrd to cobble/cement.

(LOTS of free cement mix about, dig up those cement bags.)

 

But otherwise, yes, as many regular houses anymore. But that's ok really. More goodies in the new ones, so what if it takes longer to clear?

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But otherwise, yes, as many regular houses anymore. But that's ok really. More goodies in the new ones, so what if it takes longer to clear?

 

for me its not that they take longer its that they feel more unnatural to be forced in a single direction at every building. I like looting houses that didn't seem like someone was building a fort in there house. Again they are awesome to do but shouldn't be too often, cause how many people had time to fill their houses with cement bags after the breakout started.

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...they feel more unnatural to be forced in a single direction at every building.

... but shouldn't be too often, cause how many people had time to fill their houses with cement bags after the breakout started.

 

I agree. I like the idea of dungeon buildings and some houses here or there - but there should still be a good amount of regular houses too.

 

I mean who has a giant basement filled with mutliple palette loads of bags of sand/fertilizer, 2 level attics, etc. I mean there are some towns in RL with huge old Victorian era homes like that, but not so much in modern Arizona...

 

Dungeons should be major POIs, like a Hospital, Police Station, etc- not every single regular house a dungeon. To be fair, I have found some small simple shanties out in random gen though too.

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for me its not that they take longer its that they feel more unnatural to be forced in a single direction at every building. I like looting houses that didn't seem like someone was building a fort in there house. Again they are awesome to do but shouldn't be too often, cause how many people had time to fill their houses with cement bags after the breakout started.

 

They're reasonably well distributed in Nave but there's already a massive modpack of pretty mundane, and not so mundane, prefabs available.

 

Not a good solution unless the server uses it or you play SP but it's already possible.

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?28057-Compo-Pack-for-Random-Gen

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As a dev team, do you guys feel that the current system is what players want? How's it going, numbers wise? Sincere question; I'm personally ambivalent because I just mod it how I want to, but wanted your take on it.

 

If recent steam reviews/comments are any indication... then it's pretty bad.

 

 

 

181226-SteamReviews.thumb.jpg.49911dcc60de2ea0d40d6c77ebc435ab.jpg

 

 

 

-A

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Wat. You don't have to put any points into ranged perks, just buy up your Perception and buy the Lucky Looter perk. You get a little accuracy/dmg on ranged from having a higher perception, but that eagle-eyed eidetic memory is also what helps you find the best loot.

 

I mean Perception is upping our ranged skill. So a melee looting character will have to waste points on ranged just to improve loot and wrench? Alright I'll get Perception, hey I've now got all this great loot to sell, wait now I need more Intellect to get better prices. So now my melee looter not only needs to dump into Str, but also Perception and Intellect to progress my build. And this is without touching Agility or Fort yet.

 

Oh, so you want to be a totally melee looter who also can build vehicles. Well yeah you're going to have to spend points on building vehicles then.

 

I don't want to build that's the whole point but that doesn't mean I don't want to play with new added vehicles. But there's no other way to get vehicles so I have to dump points into Intellect. I'm not using ranged weapons but I have to dump points into Perception for better loot and wrench, I'm not building tools, forges, workstations, weapon mods, but I need to dump into Intellect just to get a vehicle.

 

 

Oh, so you want to be a passive engineer/builder who can also carry a bunch of stuff. Then yeah you're going to need some Strength. Or, since you're buying up Intellect, use vehicle storage instead of inventory storage.

 

Yes Strength does tie in with able to carry more that's understandable, I'll need better mining too. But for a passive builder I'll be investing in Intellect for this build so I'll have good bartering, but hey trader isn't selling the parts I need or not enough, I better do some wrenching for parts oh I need to dump points into ranged Perception for better wrenching. So that's Int Str and Per. Ok good my base is coming along, time to get my farm going oh I need living off the land that means points into Fort. So my specialized character is now investing in Int Str Per and Fort. And the cycle continues dumping into all attributes.

 

Maybe I'm just playing it wrong, maybe I'm just too greedy wanting one or two sub perks from each attribute tree.

 

The A17 system is a cousin to almost every RPG system out there. Earn XP, get skill points, spend them on attributes and perks. Wouldn't surprise me if the D&D Player's Handbook was sitting on a desk at TFP. It's tried and tested, though obviously it needs to be balanced (and I'm not arguing A17 is properly balanced yet - IMO it's not).

 

I think specializing in an SP game is necessarily more difficult than in a co-op (not free-for-all PvE, but true co-op) game. If you're all alone, you kinda have to be able to heal yourself a bit, and craft a few things, and cook food, and shoot/hit zombies. You can kinda be stronger at a few things, but it's probably going to be difficult to completely ignore more than one attribute...

 

 

Agree it's definitely not easy to balance, there's plenty to like in A17 but the attribute gates are not fun for me anyway. I thought the whole point was not to make us all powerful and get all attributes, but having these sub perks under attributes is making us go down all attributes.

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