Developer Discussions: Alpha 17

[Reddevil]

Quick question: can anyone confirm they found 'nerdy glasses' in loot in the current stable release? I'm lvl 36 and no luck yet. I used to find lots of them in previous experimental.

 

I have found some in lockers in the academy.

[Reddevil]

Hey.

 

I waited for the stable to be out before giving it a try. My first hour in-game was decent. New graphics, new items, new vehicles. That was nice.

 

Fast forward a few hours, I came across the new Skill system. WTH did you do with 7d2d? Everything is level locked with no common sense. By level 10 I was able to craft ammunition along with pipe bombs and mines while I was NOT able to craft a damn crossbow? I magically learned to craft all that explosive crap with 1 skill point while I am not capable of making a crossbow. Well played in the designing of the game. Well played.

 

A16 made so much sense by leveling a skill line by repeating the same action again and again. Getting better with the bow by using it and developing perks through using it. Now you magically spend 1 point in an area and get better at it. This is pure garbage at this point.

 

I liked the upgrade you guys did to the Zombie AI. However, zombies have become a TOOL. Zombies are a necessity! You can't level a ♥♥♥♥e without killing zombie, except with the cheap quests. I got to the point where I am hunting zombies, they don't hunt me. In A16 I was able to reach level 50 only by crafting, upgrading, gathering resources. Now I am getting a tear drop of exp from a tree while a ♥♥♥♥e TON of exp from a zombie.

 

Does anyone know why did they change it in this way? Any ideas? They took a year to deploy A17, in the meantime wasting time on redesigning a perfectly working skill system.

 

So.. Does anyone know WHY?

 

Your developers were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.

[Ouch Quit It]

Hey.

 

I waited for the stable to be out before giving it a try. My first hour in-game was decent. New graphics, new items, new vehicles. That was nice.

 

Fast forward a few hours, I came across the new Skill system. WTH did you do with 7d2d? Everything is level locked with no common sense. By level 10 I was able to craft ammunition along with pipe bombs and mines while I was NOT able to craft a damn crossbow? I magically learned to craft all that explosive crap with 1 skill point while I am not capable of making a crossbow. Well played in the designing of the game. Well played.

 

A16 made so much sense by leveling a skill line by repeating the same action again and again. Getting better with the bow by using it and developing perks through using it. Now you magically spend 1 point in an area and get better at it. This is pure garbage at this point.

 

I liked the upgrade you guys did to the Zombie AI. However, zombies have become a TOOL. Zombies are a necessity! You can't level a ♥♥♥♥e without killing zombie, except with the cheap quests. I got to the point where I am hunting zombies, they don't hunt me. In A16 I was able to reach level 50 only by crafting, upgrading, gathering resources. Now I am getting a tear drop of exp from a tree while a ♥♥♥♥e TON of exp from a zombie.

 

Does anyone know why did they change it in this way? Any ideas? They took a year to deploy A17, in the meantime wasting time on redesigning a perfectly working skill system.

 

So.. Does anyone know WHY?

 

See my above post....basically in a nutshell ...we dont like change.....i think the game handcuffs players now and forces them to play the game in a direction that the player may not necessarily want to go. you are right....you have to go hunt zombies now in order to get the points you need to survive or to raise the skills you want to. Too restrictive and not a free choice of play.

[The Gronk]

<snipped for space>

 

It's a design choice.

 

During experimental a lot of people were... unsatisfied... with the locking of basic attributes behind an arbitrary point system. Several of us argued (and still do) that basic attributes should be "learning by doing" but as of yet those locks are still in place.

[SickPuppy]

See my above post....basically in a nutshell ...we dont like change.....i think the game handcuffs players now and forces them to play the game in a direction that the player may not necessarily want to go. you are right....you have to go hunt zombies now in order to get the points you need to survive or to raise the skills you want to. Too restrictive and not a free choice of play.

 

Just hope devs take it as good feedback, there's plenty to like in A17,

 

+ new dungeon poi's although a little heavy handed with the triggered jump scares,

+ the new vehicles, driving my hog to complete quests earning dukes is friggin amazing, hoping more fleshed out quest/adventures to come

+ early game feels way more survival based albeit from a nerfed starting point but at least it's heading in the right direction.

 

but then they took away good things from A16

 

+ level up attributes by doing

+ learn by rng looting books, helps with early game play, "life is like a box of choc dunno wut yr gonna get"

+ i miss zombie corpses, strange sentence lol

 

we had level gates in a16 but now these level gates are locked behind attribute gates and then there's player level gates, too many gates #gategate.

[Crewchief90]

When will alpha 17 be released to download and play

[vitamin]

When will alpha 17 be released to download and play

 

It's been out for 4 days already. To download it select "NONE - Opt out of all beta programs".

[Gazz]

A16 made so much sense by leveling a skill line by repeating the same action again and again. Getting better with the bow by using it and developing perks through using it. Now you magically spend 1 point in an area and get better at it. This is pure garbage at this point.

...

So.. Does anyone know WHY?

It was pretty realistic... and horrible gameplay.

[Guppycur]

It was pretty realistic... and horrible gameplay.

 

As a dev team, do you guys feel that the current system is what players want? How's it going, numbers wise? Sincere question; I'm personally ambivalent because I just mod it how I want to, but wanted your take on it.

[wildaxeman1]

See my above post....basically in a nutshell ...we dont like change.....i think the game handcuffs players now and forces them to play the game in a direction that the player may not necessarily want to go. you are right....you have to go hunt zombies now in order to get the points you need to survive or to raise the skills you want to. Too restrictive and not a free choice of play.

 

i disagree. you can spezialise pretty well now. yes, you need to put few points to every attribute to be good, but you do not need to go up to 10 lvl each attribute. mining gives decent xp too and at least some upgrading gives xp. in my opinion, xp from zombies needs to be lowered and other activities bit more xp, but defenately not to a16 way, when you dig all night in desert and gain 4 levels or more.

 

edit: i never go zombie hunting. they come to me. my activities draw them in. bigger poi's has more z to kill=more xp and more loot.

[HerrKingsley]

i disagree. you can spezialise pretty well now. yes, you need to put few points to every attribute to be good, but you do not need to go up to 10 lvl each attribute. mining gives decent xp too and at least some upgrading gives xp. in my opinion, xp from zombies needs to be lowered and other activities bit more xp, but defenately not to a16 way, when you dig all night in desert and gain 4 levels or more.

 

edit: i never go zombie hunting. they come to me. my activities draw them in. bigger poi's has more z to kill=more xp and more loot.

So because sand and snow gave to much xp. We had to get a new skill system.....makes sense

[Laz Man]

In all seriousness, is there a game out there with a balanced skills by doing system that doesnt involve grinding?

 

The last game I played long term with a similar system was an mmorpg called ultima online. They had a decent skill by doing system but it was definitely grindy and a large population of players would macro their skill ups. (Unattended skill use). A key element of that system was a diminishing gains variable the higher your skill improved.

 

Looking back at that makes me realize how tedious that type of gameplay was actually. I guess one person's tedious is another person's fun?

[Perlin_Worm]

Your developers were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.

 

I disagree with this. a17 spent an entire year in development, the staff was increased three fold and tons of content were added. They spared no expense.

[RCADICT]

You guys know what they say about opinions? Well here is mine, the game in it's current state gives you something to work towards. The level "gates" can be pushed up to very fast and you do have choices of how to reach them. I actually quit playing the game during alpha 16 because it was boring. You had top quality guns and tools by the time the first horde night come along and after that it was just rinse and repeat. So give the devs a chance it is not all in stone yet let them have a break for the holidays and start fresh in the new year.

[Hek Harris]

You guys know what they say about opinions? Well here is mine, the game in it's current state gives you something to work towards. The level "gates" can be pushed up to very fast and you do have choices of how to reach them. I actually quit playing the game during alpha 16 because it was boring. You had top quality guns and tools by the time the first horde night come along and after that it was just rinse and repeat. So give the devs a chance it is not all in stone yet let them have a break for the holidays and start fresh in the new year.

The voice of wisdom.

I used to mod A16 just because of the boring sides. In A17 and after 50 hours, I just removed the abiliy to craft guns and it forces me to explore more and more. I still find new POIs when I thought I saw everything. Just for that, this alpha is incredible.

[SickPuppy]

For me anyway it's not so much the grind, I don't mind that too much but it's dumping points into attributes that I'm not using just to reach a sub perk.

 

I'm not one to rush the forge or workbench, I like looting/exploring to find working ones. I'm playing a melee build, but I have to dump points into Intellect and Perception (ranged weapons) just to get to vehicles and loot/wrench better.

 

I'm thinking of my next experimental build character and like to go for a sneaky ranged nomad relying on hunting, I'm gonna sacrifice all Intellect and melee, but I still need to waste points on Strength to unlock backpack and Fortitude to get to Huntsman perk to get more animal meat. I dunno maybe TFP had in mind for us to play more of jack of all trades instead of specializing.

 

Certain perks locked under attribute gates feels a big hindrance, and it feels the wrong way to extend the game. Adding challenging content and different ways to unlock perk levels would be way more enjoyable than grinding xp. It's even made me look at buying other games, I feel so unfaithful.

[SickPuppy]

You guys know what they say about opinions? Well here is mine, the game in it's current state gives you something to work towards. The level "gates" can be pushed up to very fast and you do have choices of how to reach them. I actually quit playing the game during alpha 16 because it was boring. You had top quality guns and tools by the time the first horde night come along and after that it was just rinse and repeat. So give the devs a chance it is not all in stone yet let them have a break for the holidays and start fresh in the new year.

 

I agree, and i really like the loot drop option at 25%, really makes u work hard to get anything. But that's exactly what I mean, i don't want to feel over powered by being able to use guns and melee and build things, just because I want to have a bigger backpack, loot better or play with new vehicles.

 

I'm actually pro on making things harder so we can't go down all these attribute trees. But currently we are being made to go down all attribute trees.

[Boidster]

Example I want to focus on a totally melee looter

 

Okay, you'd want Strength and Perception

 

but I have to waste points on ranged weapons just to improve my looting

 

Wat. You don't have to put any points into ranged perks, just buy up your Perception and buy the Lucky Looter perk. You get a little accuracy/dmg on ranged from having a higher perception, but that eagle-eyed eidetic memory is also what helps you find the best loot.

 

or dump points into intellect just to get better transport

 

Oh, so you want to be a totally melee looter who also can build vehicles. Well yeah you're going to have to spend points on building vehicles then.

 

Or I want to try a passive engineer/builder relying on trader and traps

 

Great, in that case you'd want Intellect and probably Fortitude.

 

but I need to dump points into melee strength or play with just 2 rows of backpack.

 

Oh, so you want to be a passive engineer/builder who can also carry a bunch of stuff. Then yeah you're going to need some Strength. Or, since you're buying up Intellect, use vehicle storage instead of inventory storage.

 

The A17 system is a cousin to almost every RPG system out there. Earn XP, get skill points, spend them on attributes and perks. Wouldn't surprise me if the D&D Player's Handbook was sitting on a desk at TFP. It's tried and tested, though obviously it needs to be balanced (and I'm not arguing A17 is properly balanced yet - IMO it's not).

 

I think specializing in an SP game is necessarily more difficult than in a co-op (not free-for-all PvE, but true co-op) game. If you're all alone, you kinda have to be able to heal yourself a bit, and craft a few things, and cook food, and shoot/hit zombies. You can kinda be stronger at a few things, but it's probably going to be difficult to completely ignore more than one attribute.

 

I also think that would be a difficult thing to balance out of the game, by which I mean to balance it such that SP can specialize just as much as co-op MP without breaking the game. It's baked into the survival aspect of the game, and complicated by the fact that any SP game can become an MP game in an instant. Every client is a server if it wants to be.

 

It would be great if we had different alternatives to reach these perks, maybe trader stocks vehicles at very high prices or maybe we can gather difficult resources + high dukes so he can build 'if' he has a working bench. Or maybe more fleshed out quests for certain rewards.

 

I think those are interesting ideas that could help the SP player specialize more deeply. Note that extra inventory space can be had through armor mods and there are various ways to increase attributes and (temporarily) gain perks without buying them through points.

[CplCritter]

This game gets really good when you set it to run the day and walk at night.

 

I really like this idea... the fact the sun heats up their blood gives them more energy is more plausible than the current gameplay. Kind of like lizards and other cold blooded animals. I am trying this to spice things up a bit!

[regnyu]

I followed the experimental builds since B199, and I basically satisfied with the new system although with some reservations on removing the learning by doing system. It is new to explore anyway, better than repeating old A16, isn't it?

 

But I would like to suggest a change on the food system. I do like the food concept in A16 that you eat good to get high health points, which makes food more valuable than just being used as a secondary first aid items. Basing on the concept you actually could have created more interesting gameplays such as more recipes, advanced materials that are hidden in dangerous places, etc, which can better motivate the players to challenge for higher HP.

On the other hand, the A16 food system can be exploited that might be the reason that you change it to the current system, so I am thinking maybe you can modify the system as:

 

1) Keep the food quality - max HP relationship, but do not adjust max HP instantly

2) Evaluate the overall food quality that a player has taken for a day every morning, and adjust the max HP by a number such as -2, -1, 0, 1, 2.

 

With this system, players are rewarded for eating good food and punished for taking canned stuff every day. What do you think about it?

[Reddevil]

I disagree with this. a17 spent an entire year in development, the staff was increased three fold and tons of content were added. They spared no expense.

 

Thank you for getting it.

 

I actually really like A17 I think its a good direction, fine tuning is needed but it looks good to me. I wouldn't mind a little less dungeon style to normal buildings but I play on random gen and have not checked out Navezgane to see what the %'s are there.

[Gazz]

I'm thinking of my next experimental build character and like to go for a sneaky ranged nomad relying on hunting, I'm gonna sacrifice all Intellect and melee, but I still need to waste points on Strength to unlock backpack and Fortitude to get to Huntsman perk to get more animal meat.

If you put any effort - not skill points - into hunting you end up with way more meat than you can use.

You can unlock 15 backpack slots with mods so you don't need a lot of strength.

 

Besides, having 3 or 4 points in "other" attributes is far from being a Jack of all trades.

[wolffblood]

Thank you for getting it.

 

I actually really like A17 I think its a good direction, fine tuning is needed but it looks good to me. I wouldn't mind a little less dungeon style to normal buildings but I play on random gen and have not checked out Navezgane to see what the %'s are there.

 

Mostly dungeon style, since stable released, I've yet to find a normal house. Used to be a couple, but they were redone. Granted, some of them are like 2/3 rooms and just have to find out how to get in the building (well, entrance that you can get in without having to destroy something), but it's not then super close quarters or anything. I like Navezgane more than RWG, at least till they work out their bugs and all.

[wolffblood]

If you put any effort - not skill points - into hunting you end up with way more meat than you can use.

You can unlock 15 backpack slots with mods so you don't need a lot of strength.

 

Besides, having 3 or 4 points in "other" attributes is far from being a Jack of all trades.

 

So if you can get 15 slots with mods, and it doesn't go over the 45, then getting 5/5 Pack Mule and having those mods isn't really helpful. Though if you are already planning on getting all the backpack mods, then you would only need 3/5 to max inventory. But having the mods would mean that if you lose strength which then drops Pack Mule, it means they don't become encumbered. It'd be cool if say there was 60 slots max. Pack Mule does enough for 45, full backpack mods does full 60.

[ieuri]

It was pretty realistic... and horrible gameplay.

 

I would have to disagree completely with your statement. I thought it was pretty realistic and FANTASTIC. It did everything you all claim to want. It slows down end game progression, it allows customization, and gives players the freedom to play the game how they want. Your new system locks players into doing one thing only. Killing Zombies. You have removed individuality from players, we all now do the exact same thing to progress and are forced to play that way even if we don't want to.