Is ignoring game content the only option?

[BFT2020]

Shameless self promotion coming up in 5   4   3   2   1 .....  😏

 

 

[ungkor]

I tried giving the 'loot by learning option' a chance.  I started several new games to see how the leveling and crafting progress went, and I have to say I don't like it.

 

I don't feel like I'm in control of my character's path.   My ability to craft, or play the game like I want to, is basically up to chance.   Having to loot hundreds of books to unlock X crafting is just not fun.  

 

Maybe go back to basic experience leveling, and then make crafting perks cost more points?   I thought that having level restrictions on certain perks was a perfectly fine way of moderating the progression rate.  

 

The game is less fun now.   I enjoy crafting and building in equal measures with looting and doing quests.  This change has made quests/looting the only way to progress, and it is just less fun.  

[meilodasreh]

8 hours ago, Riamus said:

But I enjoy questing and the loot or rewards aren't my only incentives.  The quests get me exploring the POI.  Without them, I have little incentive to explore different POI.[...] Removing the quests just means you have a ton of POI that the player has no reason to ever check out, so that isn't a great option. 

Really I don't see why.

The quest reward from the trader is the only difference between doing a poi with or without a quest. (and no zombie indicators for some types)

Why would there be no incentive for you to do the poi as a "non-quest", from the "exploring perspective"?

The poi is all the same in either case, including its loot.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Riamus]

27 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

Really I don't see why.

The quest reward from the trader is the only difference between doing a poi with or without a quest. (and no zombie indicators for some types)

Why would there be no incentive for you to do the poi as a "non-quest", from the "exploring perspective"?

The poi is all the same in either case, including its loot.

 

 

As it says in what you quoted, the loot and rewards aren't my only incentives.  In other words, they are still incentives.  The rewards may not matter much to me but I still want them.  I'll do quests even if I don't really care about rewards before just running through POI because there are still rewards.  I do run through POI on occasion without quests but it's rare.  The quests give me a reason to go do the POI.

 

I may be wrong, but I have a feeling that most people who aren't opposed to quests don't explore POI very much if they don't have quests to take them to the POI.  Those who don't want to quest but still want to loot will obviously only go through POI without quests, so those can't really be compared.

[vom]

14 hours ago, Archael said:

I felt in love and bought the survival horror sandbox game.
Its a shame it went the looter shooter way.
I hate traders and i always tried to ignore them... now its almost impossible

 

Same.

[Archael]

Dont get me wrong. I love that water is more scarce now. I agree with decision of removing jars. but relying on traders in order to build dew collectors is just bad decision.
Maybe we would be able to build dew collectors without water filters, but in this case those would gather water slower, and gathered water is murky water instead of clean.

[Khissi]

2 hours ago, Archael said:

Dont get me wrong. I love that water is more scarce now. I agree with decision of removing jars. but relying on traders in order to build dew collectors is just bad decision.
Maybe we would be able to build dew collectors without water filters, but in this case those would gather water slower, and gathered water is murky water instead of clean.

I like this!  This would give those who enjoy the world without traders the ability to continue to play their way in the least intrusive way possible.  Excellent idea.

[theFlu]

31 minutes ago, Khissi said:

in the least intrusive way possible. 

I like the idea, but a design goal of the Dew system is to be a rate-limiter for water. Limiting the filters to traders limits the amount people can get early; having a non-limited version in the game would defeat that purpose. Even if it was somehow "work-limited", people would then get both types, doubling the output.

[meilodasreh]

7 hours ago, Riamus said:

The rewards may not matter much to me but I still want them.

Ok now you completely lost me. 🙂

Anyway, it's your way of thinking, I just tried to get your perspective...and failed, but that's fine.

 

My way of thinking:

Questing (which I generally like too) does- at least at the moment - mean for me, just a lot of tedious running/driving around and pass interesting stuff left and right on the way to a place with probably the same stuff "lootwise" which I would also get if I would just stop where I am and enter the next best building.

So the only incentive to quest, for me would be the better stuff as a quest reward that you get on top.

 

I also like to explore, especially now in A21 with the many many new pois.

In A21 until now I "used" early game (since travelling far is a pain in the a$$ at first) to just move into an area with a good number of promising pois around (which I don't know yet), and from there I explored those, occasionally putting away stuff into "central drop-off chest(s)".

Then I moved stuff over later when I decided where to settle down.

 

...ah it feels so good everytime you reach that point where you've moved in somewhere and make yourself comfy,

instead of having to call a campfire on a rooftop home, doesn't it? 🙂

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

To put some perspective on how broken the quest system is i did a test week with full speed questing to the max. On day 8 i am beeing able to get my first T4 quest, beeing level 20. Neary all leather armor even with a T4 chest, iron tools (pick and shovel), baseball bat T3. Default settings besides warrior difficulty. Ofc that involved a few fetch quests doing a quick in and out in like 2 mins and absolutly not beeing side tracked at all.

 

But i can see how a big part of the players would start a huge s-storm if this was nerfed. It would need a huge nerf and most people don´t like that. I mean just look around at some servers, 200% XP and loot aren´t as uncommon as you would think. Even seen a few with more than that up to 500%.

 

@Archael I like that idea, but as @theFlu said, both wouldn´t be a good idea, though i would have no problems with your method as the only one tbh.

Edited July 21, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

19 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

i am beeing

now I wonder if bees are humaning sometimes too🤔

...sorry, couldn't help it 😄

 

19 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

It would need a huge nerf and most people don´t like that. I mean just look around at some servers, 200% XP and loot aren´t as uncommon as you would think. Even seen a few with more than that up to 500%.

If this rate could be compared to A20 servers, it would say a lot about how people (dis-)like the progress speed in A21, and more or less also about the magazine system.

From what I experienced in A21, progression isn't much slower than in A20, despite getting to the "motorbike era".

But I didn't invest points into the corresponding perk so it's probably just that.

Everything I perked into I pretty much maxed out at about day 30.

 

And I didn't boost loot and/or XP, to be clear, everything on default (as I use to do on every alpha to get a good feeling for the changes)

Edited July 21, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Lamblaska]

5 hours ago, Archael said:

Dont get me wrong. I love that water is more scarce now. I agree with decision of removing jars. but relying on traders in order to build dew collectors is just bad decision.
Maybe we would be able to build dew collectors without water filters, but in this case those would gather water slower, and gathered water is murky water instead of clean.

I have the same perspective. I really like the water being more scarce and also regarding jars. I also agree that relying only on traders to reach some stuff it's not good at all. Traders could be a way of getting some stuff, but not the only way. 

I like the idea of in a post apocalypse scenario have people trading things at absurd prices. But the whole questing is just too... crude. It works from a mechanical perspective but it lacks worldbuilding and lore. It feels pointless. I take it as being a working in progress that will be properly used in the future.  

[meilodasreh]

59 minutes ago, Lamblaska said:

Maybe we would be able to build dew collectors without water filters, but in this case those would gather water slower, and gathered water is murky water instead of clean.

yes why not.

Maybe give the dew collector three slots for additional tools, just like bellows, anvil, crucible for the forge.

 

without any tools it would just collect murky water at a slow rate. ( mix of condensed moisture, rain and bird poop 🙂 )

 

As a "1st tier" tool you could have craftable filters, made of plant fiber, coal and sand (which would be somewhat realistic "ingrediences" in fact).

Then it would produce clean water, but very slow (filtering takes time).

But you could fill all three slots with additional filters to speed things up.

The filters you can only buy right now, they could serve as "high tier" filters which work pretty fast.

 

...hmmm, or you could make it that coal, sand and plant fiber work as kind of a "fuel" for the dew collector,

that is consumed over time (well, filters would wear down/clog up and stop working eventually, right?)

 

Yes, this I like even better! Make the water filter craftable with a rather high amount of coal, sand, fiber, polymer,

and make it a "comsumable" that "burns out" over time, so you have to regularly craft new ones.

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[warmer]

On 7/19/2023 at 5:04 PM, Fox said:

 

 

Seems to me like the ones who don't like the way things are right now in this particular thread are a majority, not a minority. If you can't listen to those that hate it, then why are you here talking to those that hate it?

 

.

The general rule is, people who like something tell 3 people. People that dislike something tell 11.

 

In other words, people who dislike something are always way more motivated to complain, than people who like it are to give praise.

 

If that wasn't the case social media would be a net positive experience, but we all know that isn't the case.

[Vaeliorin]

1 hour ago, meilodasreh said:

Yes, this I like even better! Make the water filter craftable with a rather high amount of coal, sand, fiber, polymer,

and make it a "comsumable" that "burns out" over time, so you have to regularly craft new ones.

As long as you give me a way to automatically add new ones (hoppers, please!) I'd be cool with that.  Having to constantly pay attention to it and craft/add new ones would get annoying pretty quickly, unless they lasted a really long time.

[meilodasreh]

21 minutes ago, Vaeliorin said:

would get annoying pretty quickly

...just as eventually having to put new wood into the forge, or having to craft new ham and eggs, coffee and stuff to keep yourself in shape.

 

Of course it should be well balanced between not having to constantly pay attention to it, but still not totally automated...this would be a step back to the "water available too easy in big amounts" that TFP's intent was to avoid by making the filters a "buy only" thing.

Edited July 21, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Fox]

1 hour ago, warmer said:

The general rule is, people who like something tell 3 people. People that dislike something tell 11.

 

In other words, people who dislike something are always way more motivated to complain, than people who like it are to give praise.

 

If that wasn't the case social media would be a net positive experience, but we all know that isn't the case.

I agree, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make.

[bearcat76]

On 7/20/2023 at 6:12 AM, BFT2020 said:

 

That's basically what I did with my trader mod.  Removed quest rewards (for all tiers and tier completion), boosted the price of items with quality, and increase time for restocking.  I also reduced the open time of the traders.  I did a flat boost to dukes since I removed the rewards (10%) but nothing too OP.  I went the route that the quests are really jobs that the traders are asking you to do so paying you for completing the job, not giving away free merchandise.

Love this concept.  I'd love to build on that by going back to a mix of learning by doing and learning by reading.  You could separate out the books by tech level and have a minimum level required to unlock crafting of items and then the quality progression in that space could be a mix of crafting experience and additional books.  If you nerfed trader rewards and tied the book probability of higher tiered items to gamestages, you could end up with a really nice system.

[Lamblaska]

19 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

yes why not.

Maybe give the dew collector three slots for additional tools, just like bellows, anvil, crucible for the forge.

 

without any tools it would just collect murky water at a slow rate. ( mix of condensed moisture, rain and bird poop 🙂 )

 

As a "1st tier" tool you could have craftable filters, made of plant fiber, coal and sand (which would be somewhat realistic "ingrediences" in fact).

Then it would produce clean water, but very slow (filtering takes time).

But you could fill all three slots with additional filters to speed things up.

The filters you can only buy right now, they could serve as "high tier" filters which work pretty fast.

 

...hmmm, or you could make it that coal, sand and plant fiber work as kind of a "fuel" for the dew collector,

that is consumed over time (well, filters would wear down/clog up and stop working eventually, right?)

 

Yes, this I like even better! Make the water filter craftable with a rather high amount of coal, sand, fiber, polymer,

and make it a "comsumable" that "burns out" over time, so you have to regularly craft new ones.

 

 
Yes, I think they could work somewhat like that. The idea would be, make it doable without the trader and also increase the overhead of farming too much water. 

[Uncle Al]

On 7/21/2023 at 2:06 PM, pApA^LeGBa said:

To put some perspective on how broken the quest system is i did a test week with full speed questing to the max. On day 8 i am beeing able to get my first T4 quest, beeing level 20. Neary all leather armor even with a T4 chest, iron tools (pick and shovel), baseball bat T3. Default settings besides warrior difficulty. Ofc that involved a few fetch quests doing a quick in and out in like 2 mins and absolutly not beeing side tracked at all.

 

But i can see how a big part of the players would start a huge s-storm if this was nerfed. It would need a huge nerf and most people don´t like that. I mean just look around at some servers, 200% XP and loot aren´t as uncommon as you would think. Even seen a few with more than that up to 500%.

My latest anecdotal contribution is day six of a new game. Went out, did a Tier 2 buried supplies which took no time at all, then while retuning home I got curious about one of the new Checkpoint POIs (A Tier 4) and ended up venturing into it and picking up a fair few things including the main loot. It was bloody hard killing mass soldiers using Q3 ish stone/pipe weapons, but it was great fun.

 

At this point I've got a mix of crafted and found gear, plus a T1 quest reward or two. Pretty consistently using Q2-3 tier zero stuff. So far so good.

 

Best loot I find in the hideous Tier 4 checkpoint is a Q4 primitive bow and a Q4 stone shovel. Both useful, great.

 

Stagger back from the checkpoint mission of death and hand in the buried supplies quest that took me about 30 seconds to complete, he offers me a Q5 iron crossbow and a Q5 iron pickaxe.

 

That does not seem at all balanced correctly....

 

I firmly believe quest rewards need to scale off trader stage, and not be hard linked to the quest tier.

[RipClaw]

23 minutes ago, Uncle Al said:

I firmly believe quest rewards need to scale off trader stage, and not be hard linked to the quest tier.

It should be a combination of both. Traderstage plus a bonus for the quest tier. Otherwise, the reward for a T1 quest would be no different than for a T5 quest.

 

[Uncle Al]

3 hours ago, RipClaw said:

It should be a combination of both. Traderstage plus a bonus for the quest tier. Otherwise, the reward for a T1 quest would be no different than for a T5 quest.

 

Oh, I absolutely agree. That's what I meant by 'scale off', if it wasn't clear.

 

If you used quest tier to calculate the trader stage of rewards in place of currently unlocked tier, which is used for calculating gear available for sale, then quest rewards would be slightly better than what you currently buy, if you're doing the highest tier of quest available from that trader.

 

As a side note, I do think daring adventurer has way too much impact on trader stage though, and unlocked tier rather too little.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Uncle Al (see edit history)

[Ripflex]

I understand what everyone is saying, but sadly I'm that player that will find the fastest and easiest way to progress and get the best stuff - and with that I like the system as is.  All I can think of, is maybe an ingame setting to make what sold be abundant or scarce- Abundant is what it is now and scarce will be more like food water and crafting materials with the odd rare item ?

 

[BFT2020]

On 7/24/2023 at 1:56 AM, Ripflex said:

I understand what everyone is saying, but sadly I'm that player that will find the fastest and easiest way to progress and get the best stuff - and with that I like the system as is.  All I can think of, is maybe an ingame setting to make what sold be abundant or scarce- Abundant is what it is now and scarce will be more like food water and crafting materials with the odd rare item ?

 

 

One thing you can do is change the counts for specific items with a simple modlet

 

For example, this is what Bob has in his stock for weapons

 

            <item group="groupMeleeAll" count="3,5"/>
            <item group="groupRangedAll" count="3,5"/>

 

Another thing, which I have done, is increase the time between restocks.  I might change the counts myself, but I haven't gotten all my mods updated to A21 yet so haven't had the chance to playtest them to see if I like the new balance or not.

 

So quest rewards are in the loot file, and tied to a specific probability that mimics the quest level

 

<!-- *** Quest_Loot_Probability_Templates -->
    <lootprobtemplate name="QuestT1Prob">
        <loot level="0,1" prob="0.05"/>
        <loot level="2" prob="0.25"/>
        <loot level="3" prob="0.65"/>
        <loot level="4,7" prob="0"/>
    </lootprobtemplate>
    <lootprobtemplate name="QuestT2Prob">
        <loot level="1,2" prob="0"/>
        <loot level="3" prob="0.35"/>
        <loot level="4" prob="0.65"/>
        <loot level="5,7" prob="0"/>
    </lootprobtemplate>
    <lootprobtemplate name="QuestT3Prob">
        <loot level="1,4" prob="0"/>
        <loot level="5" prob="0.75"/>
        <loot level="6,7" prob="0.25"/>
    </lootprobtemplate>

 

You could change it to reflect loot stage easily (by using ProbT1 to ProbT3).  Not sure if you could easily tie it to the new trader stage system as you would need to change the reward item from a lootitem to a trader item

Currently

        <reward type="LootItem" id="groupQuestWeapons" ischosen="true" value="6"/>

Edited July 26, 2023 by BFT2020 (see edit history)

[minisith]

I like the changes.  Feels good besides some minor tweaks to balance it out.   I think a lot of minorities want to game made for themselves and not for TFP.

On 7/21/2023 at 8:06 AM, pApA^LeGBa said:

To put some perspective on how broken the quest system is i did a test week with full speed questing to the max. On day 8 i am beeing able to get my first T4 quest, beeing level 20. Neary all leather armor even with a T4 chest, iron tools (pick and shovel), baseball bat T3. Default settings besides warrior difficulty. Ofc that involved a few fetch quests doing a quick in and out in like 2 mins and absolutly not beeing side tracked at all.

 

But i can see how a big part of the players would start a huge s-storm if this was nerfed. It would need a huge nerf and most people don´t like that. I mean just look around at some servers, 200% XP and loot aren´t as uncommon as you would think. Even seen a few with more than that up to 500%.

 

@Archael I like that idea, but as @theFlu said, both wouldn´t be a good idea, though i would have no problems with your method as the only one tbh.

Speed running breaks every game.