A21 is... definately better... but...

[Viktoriusiii]

Okay... let me preface this by saying: A21 is a step in a better direction... balance and art wise.
But if you've been around, I am not one to focus on the positives. You have so many ppl telling you how great the game is... you don't need that from me. I'm bad at it and I dislike it.
There are a lot of improvements and I can acknowledge that.

But now to what I acktually wanted to say:

WTF WERE YOU THINKING???
I mean removing LBD was pretty bad... but okay lets focus on this newly implemented point-buy feature... even if its inferior it has some positives (more streamlined progression, clearer hurdles, easier customizability)...
AND THEN you introduce learning by Looting... which is just LBD but with all the positives removed (you took away agency from the player. Instead of being able to decide what you want to specialize in, you again have to luck out!) AND ON TOP OF THAT you implemented the "Forge ahead" problem back into the game... MULTIPLE TIMES!!! JUST WHAT WERE YOU THINKING??? I am level 25 and just now got my forge... I already have steel tools and modern weapons (pipe, simple, modern, futuristic)... but I wasn't able to smelt anything, because the town I settled at didnt have really any workstations to get those damn books from. 3/5 levels were from trader rewards.
How in the world am I supposed to ever get to steel? (14x the amount I have) and getting the perk doesnt even increase the odds of finding the skillbooks! (or at least it doesnt specify like it does with most other skills)

DO NOT LOCK PROGRESSION BEHIND RANDOM CHANCE!!!
I can't believe... after all these alphas... and all the times you f*ed up (Levelgates as an easy uncontroversial example)... that you would not only create a newly worsened skillsystem, but that you would repeat the same mistake you already did again...


I don't mind that I will probably never get my T5 weapon of choice because the skillbooks are so rare I have a better chance of looting it or getting it as a reward from the trader...
but the forge? I feel like a caveman in full military gear... either slow down ALL of progression (loot 25% xp 50% duke gain 5%) which will surely upset the casual players because then every game takes 300h...
or make the workstation books available in EVERY CONTAINER. Doesnt have to be a particularly high chance. But if I looked at 500 trashpiles, I'd like to see like 10 workstation books.


PS: Why oh why does it autouse lockpicks?
I just looted it and now because of the misclick its gone.
It should be switchable. Once you have an endless amount you should be able to do it automaticially... but this was is just annoying

Edited June 24, 2023 by Viktoriusiii (see edit history)

[Survior]

OP, the new progression system has so many holes in it players should be able to make a rain machine to replace the awful dew catchers.

 

[ElCabong]

I've always had my workbench very early. I don't remember the exact date but certainly by day five.  This time I got it a little sooner, day 3 I think, because I put one point in engineering and another point in lock picking.

 

On day one when you get your first four points did you put one of them in engineering?

[Grampybones]

4 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

<snip>

PS: Why oh why does it autouse lockpicks?
I just looted it and now because of the misclick its gone.
It should be switchable. Once you have an endless amount you should be able to do it automaticially... but this was is just annoying

Personally I like the autouse lockpicks. It makes using lockpicks easier for people that are doing lockpicks. You can still hold "E" and choose either lockpick or open. Or you can pull out your pickaxe and beat it into submission. You still have the choices but just in a different order.

[Gideon]

On 6/24/2023 at 5:04 AM, Viktoriusiii said:

... How in the world am I supposed to ever get to steel? (14x the amount I have) and getting the perk doesnt even increase the odds of finding the skillbooks! (or at least it doesnt specify like it does with most other skills) ...

 

Interesting. Supposedly it does increase the chance based on your skill point distribution. I admit, I don't know if it changes the chances overall, or changes the chances of specific types at containers that spawn magazines.

 

You noted that the town you settled in has very few magazines around. This time through, we settled in a city not a town. There were a LOT more options to find find magazines, just out on the street (mailboxes and newspaper machines). Perhaps small towns just don't provide enough loot to make them work any more? I know that cities have tier 0 all the way to tier 5 POIs, so small towns really don't have a place in progression any more.

 

The other difference I may be experiencing is that I'm playing it along with someone else. We share magazines based on our specialties. When getting trader rewards, this definitely skews the numbers towards getting more magazines. Perhaps this is something the developers should look at if they are trying to control progression rate? Multiple people collecting quest rewards and then shuffling around what they get based on each person's preference or specialty certainly erodes concepts of progression or scarcity.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Gideon (see edit history)

[CapnCookie]

5 hours ago, Gideon said:

Interesting. Supposedly it does increase the chance based on your skill point distribution. I admit, I don't know if it changes the chances overall, or changes the chances of specific types at containers that spawn magazines.

 

Just created an account to chime in with this specifically. Skill points in certain perks offer percentage bonuses to your chances of finding certain magazines. This is usually in the form of 200%, 400%, 600%, 800% and 1000% bonus added to the probability of finding the magazine (though a skill like lockpicking, which only has three points, starts with 200%, then 600%, and then maxes at 1000%). It does not change which loot containers offer a chance to produce a magazine related to a certain skill, though. 

[White-Gandalf]

Just to ride that horse a little longer: I carefully read all the perk point descriptions in the new alpha to get ANY hints on how they would influence the dice rolls.

Fact is, there is not a single line of description telling what perk actually would up the dice rolls for workbenches. Since Perks and Skills are gameplay wise completely decoupled (with the dice roll modification only being invisible and untouchable underground), without a description somewhere in the game, you are forced to go analyzing the XMLs.

THIS is the complete contrary to what i consider a "good" ingame experience.

Consider making a stream and having to regularly switch over IN STREAM to some XML editor or even excel worksheets, where you extract the documentation that TFP "forgot" to implement in the completely reinvented perk/skill system...

This is simply big.bull.@%$#.

Only on top of making the whole perk/skill system dice rolled. Did i say "BBS"?

[Hyperbolt]

It mostly sounds like youve had really bad luck, or you arent doing much looting/trading?   In the 10-ish playtroughs ive done in experimental so far, ive almost always found enough workstation books to unlock the forge before day 7!  And no, i did not put any points in advanced engineering. 

I play on 100% loot, 40 min days. 

[praekokion]

18 minutes ago, White-Gandalf said:

Fact is, there is not a single line of description telling what perk actually would up the dice rolls for workbenches. Since Perks and Skills are gameplay wise completely decoupled (with the dice roll modification only being invisible and untouchable underground), without a description somewhere in the game, you are forced to go analyzing the XMLs.

 

Fact is: This is wrong. Yes, some of the localization text of the PERKS is missing which lootchances the specific perk raises.

 

BUT: If you go to the "Crafting Magazones" Tab and click "Workbenches" it will tell you in the top right description text, which perks will increase your chances. It would be better to have it written "in both directions" (so also at the perks description) - but saying it is written nowhere is wrong.

 

Also: If you put 1-2 points in Adv. Engineering and Lockpicking each, you will get your workstations in a timely manner. Usually I have Forge day 2/3, worlbench day 4/5 and cement mixer around day 8-10. Which would mean steel around day 25, which seems pretty reasonable to me. 

 

But, this also means you should loot all the mailboxes etc. you see beginning from the first second. I agree on one thing tho, which i dislike: Once you "screwed up" its very hard to get back. What I mean: If you put a lot of points into other things that give bool chances, like a specific weapon skill, you will then get a lot more of these books from "general book storage" like mailboxes. This, in return, obviously means, that you will get less forge ahead books.

 

So I would always focus on Workstations/Vehicles early to pump out a lot of these books - since you cant really get these things from loot/quests. Weapons and tools, I dont reeaally need to craft top often. 

 

So basically I just think the system did the exact opposite of what they wanted to achieve: You have even more incentive to go for Int and Workstations/Vehicles early on, instead of investing into your attribute of choice, than you did in A20... at least in A20 you would still get the progress if you went into Int later - now, even after you invest into Int later down the line, it will still take you a lot longer to get worlstations/vehicles going starting from that point, than it wouöd have taken you if you invested into int in the beginning. 

[canadianbluebeer]

Fergittin Elixir is much cheaper now. 5k instead of 30k

 

Makes it much better for that "oops" thing.

 

(or yanking point out of something you don't need anymore)

(unless it wipes out all the books too, that would be insanely bad)

 

but yeah, check mailboxes and the newspaper things.

don't forget to loot the ATMs as well.    moneymoneymoney!

 

(money for nothing, but the chicks are zombies)  😛

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

I am just quickly jumping in for the forge issue. I did a bunch of new starts, because i wanted to test how consistent it is, as  i am traumatized from the old forge ahead book aswell.  And spending one point in advanced engineering gave me the ability to craft the forge on day one or two every time. in like 7 of 10 starts i looted one forge ahead in every workstation at the trader and found the rest to unlock the forge in loot, either in workstations in POI´s or Working Stiff chests, but also in mailboxes and newspaper stands.

 

Didn´t have enough time to test it without putting a point in advanced engineering so far.

 

But the new system does suck. It forces a playstyle on us. And in MP it is not enough for stay at home players who mine/build/cook/farm/craft and don´t like looting that the others bring them the magazines. They are significantly behind and we don´t get enough parts for their skills. We don´t mind slower progression but a gap between the players of a coop group simply sucks.

 

This change for skills introduced a new meta and makes double dipping when doing quests even more tempting.

Edited June 27, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[warmer]

To the OP wow you are salty. Its almost like you feel they owe you something aside from all the hours of fun you have had so far....

Edited June 27, 2023 by warmer (see edit history)

[Gideon]

4 hours ago, canadianbluebeer said:

Fergittin Elixir is much cheaper now. 5k instead of 30k

 

Makes it much better for that "oops" thing.

 

(or yanking point out of something you don't need anymore)

(unless it wipes out all the books too, that would be insanely bad)

 

but yeah, check mailboxes and the newspaper things.

don't forget to loot the ATMs as well.    moneymoneymoney!

 

(money for nothing, but the chicks are zombies)  😛

 

Fergettin Elixir does NOT clear any perk or crafting books.

I used one myself as I decided to go machine guns rather than rifles later on in my game. It ONLY reset the skill points and attribute points.

 

Hope that helps.

[Survior]

3 hours ago, Gideon said:

Fergettin Elixir

This is such a horrible mechanic, it's a pity how badly it's needed in the current state of the game, and how it completely yeets everything they seem to be attempting to accomplish, actually I'm not sure what they are trying to accomplish so, well whatever, a dirty band aid on a festering wound.

 

 

[Roland]

On 6/24/2023 at 5:04 AM, Viktoriusiii said:

I am level 25 and just now got my forge... I already have steel tools and modern weapons (pipe, simple, modern, futuristic)... but I wasn't able to smelt anything, because the town I settled at didnt have really any workstations to get those damn books from. 3/5 levels were from trader rewards.
How in the world am I supposed to ever get to steel?

 

Regardless of your well-known propensity to wildly exaggerate in order to make a point, I will just say that if you really did get to level 25 without ever being able to build a forge because you found yourself in a tiny community without resources, there is a solution to that ---> Go exploring to find the big city. That is the logical thing that people do in real life when they can't find what they want in their little hometown. They shop on the larger internet or do some shopping when they have the opportunity to visit the big city at stores their little town doesn't have. For me, that's Chik-Fil-A whenever we visit the larger city to the north of us...

 

You've outgrown and gotten everything you can from your starting area. So go find a new place to build a base that will have what you need. I don't see anything wrong with such a design.  I mean if you want to stay put where you are just for the challenge of glacially slow progression, that's fine but the world has new areas to find and new opportunities to discover and there is nothing wrong with the game incentivizing players to move to a new place once they've fully exploited their beginning area. Its one thing to say that the game is horribly unbalanced due to not enough containers around in the world to find Forge Ahead and its another to say that the game is horribly unbalanced due to not enough containers in your initial rural starting area to find Forge Ahead.

 

On 6/26/2023 at 7:37 AM, Gideon said:

You noted that the town you settled in has very few magazines around. This time through, we settled in a city not a town. There were a LOT more options to find find magazines, just out on the street (mailboxes and newspaper machines). Perhaps small towns just don't provide enough loot to make them work any more? I know that cities have tier 0 all the way to tier 5 POIs, so small towns really don't have a place in progression any more.

 

They do have a place in progression for those who like a slower progression. It offers a variable start condition that makes the replayability higher. You might start near a large city in one game but in a rural area in another. Will you stay in the rural area and play longer in the primitive stage of the game before looking for a larger city or explore and search for a larger city immediately in order to learn faster and improve your gear at a faster rate from the start? 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Roland That´s their idea of replayability? Having to slow down your progression yourself instead of having a good slow natural progression no matter how you play? Wow. That´s a new low.

 

Also doesn´t really work, at least for higher difficulties. You have to keep up with your gamestage. Basically impossible in MP Coop to choose slow progression as you get rads on day 8 (Default settings besides difficulty). Or are you now telling me that we need to die more often to keep progression slow?

Edited June 28, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[YourMirror]

2 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Roland That´s their idea of replayability? Having to slow down your progression yourself instead of having a good slow natural progression no matter how you play? Wow. That´s a new low.

 

Also doesn´t really work, at least for higher difficulties. You have to keep up with your gamestage. Or are you now telling me that we need to die more often to keep progression slow?

 

Its like you, saying to have quit playing. Like 25 times. Why are you still here again?

[pApA^LeGBa]

@YourMirror That´s actually none of your business, but i am here waiting for modders to fix this mess.

[YourMirror]

Just now, pApA^LeGBa said:

@YourMirror That´s actually none of your business, but i am here waiting for modders to fix this mess.

 

public forum. My business. You find yourself to important.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Well that answer i can give to you aswell why i am here. But no, the fact that this is public doesn´t make my intentions on here your business.

[BFT2020]

I started out in a very small town (about half seemed to be burnt out buildings / POI).  There are a few industrial POIs (one gas station, the lowest tier crack a book).

 

I had a forge by Day 4.  Day 28 horde is behind me and I am setting up a temporary base in a city 2 km away (so I don't have to constantly travel back and forth each day) so I can start doing that trader's missions to go up.  Prior to the move, I just used my starting location trader (even though he sent me to 3 others that were next to cities and in snow / desert biomes).

 

In my starter base, I have the forge, workstation, cement mixer, and chemistry station, all unlocked by what I looted in the starting city and doing the trader missions with the trader in this location.  No double looting (only if I chose a mission where it sent me to a POI I already did the mission on, but that was typically a higher tier infestation mission).

 

I have perked into lockpicks and advanced engineering, but only the first perk level and similar to what I did in Alpha 20 (also note, I removed recipe unlocks in A20 so everything was schematic only so it was for the benefits of those levels, not recipe unlocks).  So that did boost my chances for those magazines to drop, but I also perked into the first level of salvage operations and miner 69 so the perk advantage of finding those magazines pretty much drop away within the first week.

 

Is it slower progression compared to my first run (at B313) where I was next to a large city?  Of course it is.  The previous run had mailboxes / news stands / crack a book stores / lots of commercial  and industrial POIs in it.  However, if I was worried about the rate of progression, I could have easily moved to the second trader location once I completed the first tier of trader missions at my starting location.

[meganoth]

At the moment it seems to me that the loot-bonus from perks is a bad design for all the magazines that everyone needs. Especially Forge ahead, but a lot of the utility mags as well, like the electricity, vehicle and farming books. The disadvantages have been mentioned already, a need to invest in those perks and no way to not get the loot-bonus when you invest into a perk for other reasons than wanting to craft.

 

Sure, for a single player practically a lot of perks are must-haves at perk level 1. And they could all be viewed as part of the selection you have for ANY specialization.

But there are many and to only be selected because you want the loot bonus should not be the only reason to select a perk. Maybe what they did with the forge-ahead books, that two or more perks work would be nice. For example farming and cooking could build another pair.

 

What would work is if those magazines got the loot-bonus automatically and not through perks. What already DOES work is that you can just check out specific places and loot boxes to get more of some specific magazines.

 

Another fix would be to move the loot-bonus from perks to candy. You buy the builder-candy and you get a sixth sense for workstation-, electricity-, and traps-magazines for example.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[theFlu]

6 minutes ago, meganoth said:

What would work is if those magazines got the loot-bonus automatically and not through perks.

Wouldn't that just be a matter of setting the number of books needed lower? Seeds already complete at 20 (30?) magazines, way lower than most other things.

[meganoth]

19 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Wouldn't that just be a matter of setting the number of books needed lower? Seeds already complete at 20 (30?) magazines, way lower than most other things.

 

Yes, but may be easier to explain to the "public" who is used to think there is no way to get mags without that bonus.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[IrishManJMo]

2 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Roland That´s their idea of replayability? Having to slow down your progression yourself instead of having a good slow natural progression no matter how you play? Wow. That´s a new low.

 

Also doesn´t really work, at least for higher difficulties. You have to keep up with your gamestage. Basically impossible in MP Coop to choose slow progression as you get rads on day 8 (Default settings besides difficulty). Or are you now telling me that we need to die more often to keep progression slow?

 

This is just another gross exaggeration and simply not true. As I mentioned I play on Insane Difficulty and was in no way forced one way or the other on my progression. I chose to look for a city early to be in a better spot for trader quest variety and this caused me to progress much quicker both in my skills but also gamestage and I can assure you even with that boosted gamestage there was certainly not radiated zombies on day 8 let alone only a couple of ferals.

 

Reading through this thread let me know that a lot of people are bad at the game, bad at reading or both. As a few scholars pointed out the game does in fact let you know what perks increase the chances for Forge Ahead magazines. Could this have been easier to find in the text? Sure, but it does exist. I'm also not here to flat out defend the new magazine progression system. It is a massive step in the right direction and could be improved with some balancing but overall it functions correctly. With that being said I can't think of a single reason why LBD isn't a better way of doing the exact same thing especially since this form does exactly what people were worried about which is it completely screws over the players who just wanna sit around mining and building. Also Roland's response was *chef's kiss*

 

My personal experience with this system so far was taking a slower approach to the progression admittedly because I didn't bother reading the perks/magazine pages prior to just jumping into the skills I felt like playing due to being on Insane difficulty. To me my combat and survival perks felt more necessary than workstations and vehicles. With that being sad I still managed to get them relatively quick once I decided I needed them without putting points into Advanced Engineering or Lockpicking. I did enough trader quests to get a bicycle and rode around town to town looting every mailbox, newspaper stand and broken workstation I could find. I never felt gatekept on getting what I wanted throughout my playthrough as you can repeat tier 1 quests for book bundles also or tier 2 quests for more than enough forged steel to get through the early game. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by IrishManJMo
My first paragraphs got deleted when I quoted (see edit history)