Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[AmishMan53]

To be fair to @Beelzebubs Ghost

-Game has been in alpha for longer then most games' development cycle, scratch to finish

-Even if someone bought the game at alpha 5 with the "it's an alpha, expectations are low" mindset.. it's been ages and they want their moneys worth, whatever that means to them

-Alpha 15 had a different perk system then it is now, it was overhauled to the current perk system, and now it's being changed again.. I can be grateful for this kind of change cuz, imo, alpha 15's was way better and this looks a little closer to that.. but still i want a playable game more then anything and that's looking further away if the devs keep retouching on things over and over again

I'd say this much.. I want optimization.. tis all i care about.  The build system is great, the gameplay is great, and i haven't driven the game to death for the last 4 years since i bought it on PC to know what every POI variation and such looks like to care that they are adding more POI's.  However it's completely egocentric to, at this point, think anyone's expectations for this game is less or more important than anyone elses.  Some people have driven the content into the ground, have high-end pc's to handle the games hiccups/optimization oversights (whatever you would call it), and have different want's or needs from the game.  As for wanting Ultra settings to work at 4K 60fps.. might be a bit of a push, but again when the game was put in alpha nearly 9 years ago.. if you have todays top-end PC with RTX capability blah blah.. it should probably handle that of a 9 year old game.  

 

This all being said.. I wasn't here to really gripe.. came to check what's been confirmed for alpha 21 and see if their was any optimization talk, cuz again that's what i care about.  Instead i see water voxel stuff.. which i did see some crazy water block issues in a rwg that just looked ugly so that's cool and all... and people starting some silly argument over what "right" a person has to complain over this or that.  I personally wouldn't blame anyone for raging right now if they payed for a product near 9 years ago and that product still hasn't been delivered in full, regardless of what they want to rage about.  Just my 2 cents.

[Diragor]

Just one question. Why are so many gamers these days such graphic sl*ts xD Gameplay+content>>>>>>>>>>>>graphics

[falloutcloud]

2 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

To be fair to @Beelzebubs Ghost

-Game has been in alpha for longer then most games' development cycle, scratch to finish

-Even if someone bought the game at alpha 5 with the "it's an alpha, expectations are low" mindset.. it's been ages and they want their moneys worth, whatever that means to them

-Alpha 15 had a different perk system then it is now, it was overhauled to the current perk system, and now it's being changed again.. I can be grateful for this kind of change cuz, imo, alpha 15's was way better and this looks a little closer to that.. but still i want a playable game more then anything and that's looking further away if the devs keep retouching on things over and over again

I'd say this much.. I want optimization.. tis all i care about.  The build system is great, the gameplay is great, and i haven't driven the game to death for the last 4 years since i bought it on PC to know what every POI variation and such looks like to care that they are adding more POI's.  However it's completely egocentric to, at this point, think anyone's expectations for this game is less or more important than anyone elses.  Some people have driven the content into the ground, have high-end pc's to handle the games hiccups/optimization oversights (whatever you would call it), and have different want's or needs from the game.  As for wanting Ultra settings to work at 4K 60fps.. might be a bit of a push, but again when the game was put in alpha nearly 9 years ago.. if you have todays top-end PC with RTX capability blah blah.. it should probably handle that of a 9 year old game.  

 

This all being said.. I wasn't here to really gripe.. came to check what's been confirmed for alpha 21 and see if their was any optimization talk, cuz again that's what i care about.  Instead i see water voxel stuff.. which i did see some crazy water block issues in a rwg that just looked ugly so that's cool and all... and people starting some silly argument over what "right" a person has to complain over this or that.  I personally wouldn't blame anyone for raging right now if they payed for a product near 9 years ago and that product still hasn't been delivered in full, regardless of what they want to rage about.  Just my 2 cents.

My take away from the conversation on the optimization end is that there will always be small improvements here and there. I see it with every patch. Do not expect a large overhaul as we are on the final stretch of features so they can move on to Beta and then Gold.

 

Early Access games I see take a longer development cycle all the time due to the nature of people playing and giving feedback which in turn increases development time. Much different than going Gold and then dropping a patch afterwards to address the feedback. I remember the days of no patches, you got what you got.

[spud42]

5 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

 

-Even if someone bought the game at alpha 5 with the "it's an alpha, expectations are low" mindset.. it's been ages and they want their moneys worth, whatever that means to them

 

If someone who has had the game from alpha 5 and hasnt got their "money's worth" , well they are impossible to please. 

i spent $24.00 on this game and have over 2400 hours. at 1c per hour and dropping in price the more i play ... i sure as hell have had my money's worth and a whole lot more. 

[meilodasreh]

33 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

I'm sure Roland is racking his brain to top his "Everdeen" puzzle.  He is probably wants to make sure whatever feature he will elude too won't slip to A22...😅

the real reason of alphas being delayed is finally revealed

 

TFP were always on track...it was him all the time 🧐

[beerfly]

1 hour ago, meilodasreh said:

the real reason of alphas being delayed is finally revealed

 

TFP were always on track...it was him all the time 🧐

Yeah, about the release date, divide 22 by 7 and you will get it 🤘

[meilodasreh]

14 minutes ago, beerfly said:

Yeah, about the release date, divide 22 by 7 and you will get it 🤘

You mean it is released when I finished writing the result?

 

Challenge accepted:

7.3333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333uh that takes longer than I thought dammit333333333...

 

...stay tuned I'm on it

[Code_Ovrld]

2 hours ago, beerfly said:

Yeah, about the release date, divide 22 by 7 and you will get it 🤘

 

How about just adding up the sum of: 4 - 4/3 + 4/5 - 4/7 + 4/9 ...

for those math geeks out there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_π

[beerfly]

26 minutes ago, Code_Ovrld said:

 

How about just adding up the sum of: 4 - 4/3 + 4/5 - 4/7 + 4/9 ...

for those math geeks out there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz_formula_for_π

Even Roland have no perception of math in any tiny way, sorry sir, wrong forum. 

 

*hiding under the bed*

 

Welcome to the forums btw

[Fanatical_Meat]

1 hour ago, Hicksior said:

I may be missing something in the game, but I haven't seen anything on it, but any plan to return the ability to make solar panels and cells by the players?

 

I enjoy setting up a base with doors that open via motion cameras and running it all on solar with battery banks, but having to purchase the solar can be frustrating as you have to wait till they are available.

 

Otherwise keep up the great work, myself and friends are looking forward to seeing what else is coming! 

Had to be a mod, I’ve been playing a while and I do not remember panels or auto doors

[Hicksior]

No mods, I run a pure Vanilla server and skills still has being able to make things in them as well. We are all learning the game and no need to mod it just yet, we do have a couple of small ones on the server for quality of life, but damn we enjoy it. Normally anywhere from 5 to 9 of us playing and doing missions, I might have to do some feedback actually on missions.

[Fanatical_Meat]

31 minutes ago, Hicksior said:

No mods, I run a pure Vanilla server and skills still has being able to make things in them as well. We are all learning the game and no need to mod it just yet, we do have a couple of small ones on the server for quality of life, but damn we enjoy it. Normally anywhere from 5 to 9 of us playing and doing missions, I might have to do some feedback actually on missions.

I typically don’t do electric maybe I’m wrong. I simply don’t remember those items being in a vanilla game.

[Melange]

- Scrubbed -

Edited September 20, 2022 by Melange
Unintended selective interpretation (see edit history)

[Roland]

17 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

but still i want a playable game more then anything and that's looking further away if the devs keep retouching on things over and over again

You said some other things I was tempted to respond to but this took the cake so I’ll limit my response to this. 
 

The game is already playable and has been playable for 9 years now. I’m just not sure what magical switch people are thinking is going to get flipped in the game when the devs say, “Okay, it’s now 1.0 so let’s remove the Early Access label. Full release is here”

 

You know, I played Minecraft during its open beta while it was in early access and it played pretty much the same after its “Full release” as it did before. In fact, it still does. Yes, it has gotten quite a bit of new content since it released officially but it still plays pretty much the same. 
 

In other words, there really isn’t much of a reason to want the devs to say, “We’re done” as long as they are continually working on it. I have yet to see any released game by any studio that doesn’t have people with high end machines complaining about the the difference between reality and their expectations. 
 

When this game releases the oceans aren’t going to rise a bit, the lights in your house aren’t going to dim for a second or two. The game will largely be exactly the same as we have and there will be folks complaining that they are experiencing bugs and that they get drops in performance because that is the case for every single game out there. 
 

The game is playable now.

1 hour ago, Xeen said:

@The Fun Pimps

Does anyone care to comment on why the solar bank, and solar panel can't be crafted?

I know this has probably been asked and answered but I've not seen it.

Because it’s a looter shooter. Duh!

 

 

btw…. 7 Brutus Denied 5

[Astronomical]

10 hours ago, Roland said:

 7 Brutus Denied 5

 

33 minutes ago, Roland said:

btw…. 7 Brutus Denied 5

 

Uh oh.. he's speaking in tongues. 😬

 

[meganoth]

1 minute ago, Astronomical said:

 

 

Uh oh.. he's speaking in tongues. 😬

 

 

I assume Roland gave us the new katniss everdeen hint.

 

 

[Laz Man]

Hmmmm, what does Brutus VII and the Denied 5 error message have to do with each other?

 

Google has failed me lol...

[Blake_]

59 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

Hmmmm, what does Brutus VII and the Denied 5 error message have to do with each other?

 

Google has failed me lol...

I found a muscle man called Brutus The barber with that search. I'm going to pretend those words never happened. Nope, not even trying to find their meaning, lol.

 

Btw ! Surprise questions !

 

1.How many new Tier 5 POI or otherwise can you confirm as implemented in a21 ?

 

2.And another question: Did you guys made some new underground POI for a21? 

 

3. What is your favourite "not yours"  a21 POI? 

[Blake_]

25 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

1. 9867674

 

2. A POI measuring the entirety of the Europa Moon underwater area, but without water.

 

3. Mine, only my works are good. I made a Tier V POI the other day that was so good that they upgraded it to Tier VI.

Thanks for the absolutely unbiased truth! Mostly.  

[Xeen]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

Because it’s a looter shooter. Duh!

Sounds legit.

[meganoth]

The most famous Brutus  was one of the senators(?) who stabbed Caesar. So the first idea would be it is about the knife.

 

I normally would disregard this since weapons are not the focus right now. But the bible says in Matthew 7:5: "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.".

 

And now it makes sense as graphics designers are working on kill gore. You can cut out the eyes of zombies with a knife. Which would "Denied" the zombie his eyesight, make him blind.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[AmishMan53]

10 hours ago, Roland said:

You said some other things I was tempted to respond to but this took the cake so I’ll limit my response to this. 
 

The game is already playable and has been playable for 9 years now. I’m just not sure what magical switch people are thinking is going to get flipped in the game when the devs say, “Okay, it’s now 1.0 so let’s remove the Early Access label. Full release is here”

 

You know, I played Minecraft during its open beta while it was in early access and it played pretty much the same after its “Full release” as it did before. In fact, it still does. Yes, it has gotten quite a bit of new content since it released officially but it still plays pretty much the same. 
 

In other words, there really isn’t much of a reason to want the devs to say, “We’re done” as long as they are continually working on it. I have yet to see any released game by any studio that doesn’t have people with high end machines complaining about the the difference between reality and their expectations. 
 

When this game releases the oceans aren’t going to rise a bit, the lights in your house aren’t going to dim for a second or two. The game will largely be exactly the same as we have and there will be folks complaining that they are experiencing bugs and that they get drops in performance because that is the case for every single game out there. 
 

The game is playable now.

 

 

What is your benchmark that this game is playable?  I don't have a high-end machine.. all the high-end machine talk was in reference to beelzebubs issue with the game.  That being said, GTX 1060 6GB with Ryzen 5 2600 and 16GB of RAM, which each piece (and things unmentioned) meet the steam page recommended specs.. i shouldn't have terrible fps issues on medium settings, especially since i've heavily customized the settings to be closer to low settings, keeping some things like FOV to the medium setting.  For the majority of the time, the game is playable.. but for horde night to have FPS sit consistently below 30fps on my machine, dipping often into 10-15fps.. that's unplayable.  Repairing traps and walls is difficult at that framerate, never mind the idea that i should be also shooting/smacking zombies.

 

Minecraft is a terrible example for this particular comparison's sake, as it's not exactly pushing graphics.  It probably pushes memory and cpu harder then the graphics card.  Additionally, It had just a little over 2 years from public alpha/beta phase to full release.  Honestly, if minecraft was sold to me in alpha and stayed in alpha for 9 years, still having fps issues while shoveling out a 3rd rework to some in-game system.. i might just start expecting circles from Mojang.

 

You seem to be lumping anybody who complains with a "complain crowd" and think everyone who complains is the same with your final full paragraph.  Reporting experiencing bugs is often encouraged by developers, and depending the level of frustration a bug can cause it can often come across, or even be, complaining.  Depending on what that complaint is, it can be reasonable or unreasonable.  Performance, especially at medium settings when running a rig that meets the recommended specs for said game, seems to me like a pretty reasonable complaint.  Which is my case, even tho as i said in my previous post.. i didn't come here to do any complaining or reporting or anything.. just came to check and see if their were mentions of optimizations (which of course, i'm sure they are always optimizing some.. but very notable bug fixes and optimizations likely would make it into patch notes).

 

To conclude.. no.. if my rig is above recommended specs but can't hold even 30fps, it's not playable.  What really takes the cake is people thinking their experience with a game is the experience everyone else has, and everyone should have the same standards as themselves.  Content-wise.. the game already meets my standards.  Performance-wise, game at least needs to hold 30FPS, tho as a shooter i'd like closer to 60FPS, and would like the 30th/40th container i open to act like every other container i open and not freeze-frame me for 3seconds.

[Roland]

52 minutes ago, AmishMan53 said:

What is your benchmark that this game is playable?  I don't have a high-end machine.. all the high-end machine talk was in reference to beelzebubs issue with the game.  That being said, GTX 1060 6GB with Ryzen 5 2600 and 16GB of RAM, which each piece (and things unmentioned) meet the steam page recommended specs.. i shouldn't have terrible fps issues on medium settings, especially since i've heavily customized the settings to be closer to low settings, keeping some things like FOV to the medium setting.  For the majority of the time, the game is playable.. but for horde night to have FPS sit consistently below 30fps on my machine, dipping often into 10-15fps.. that's unplayable.  Repairing traps and walls is difficult at that framerate, never mind the idea that i should be also shooting/smacking zombies.

 

As I said, there will always be people that claim the game is unplayable for them even after it is released. I wasn't taking issue with your claim that the game is unplayable by your own standards. I'm sure it is. I have no idea what all your settings are. Have you turned up the number of zombies alive at one time from the default of 8 to higher than that? Maybe that is part of the cause for such low framerates on horde night. But I don't know.

 

My point was that the game is not going to be much different than it is generally after it releases. Release day is not going to be some huge miraculous turning point. I'm sure they will continue to find optimizations and make gains in performance but there will be negative reviews after release that the game is not playable from perspective and expectations of some people. That is guaranteed. Regardless, the game has been and is being played for thousands of hours by thousands of people, hence my remark that it is already currently playable-- from a general perspective and not necessarily from any one person's perspective. You, personally, may feel that the game is not playable by your own standards and in that sense I can't argue with that for you.

 

1 hour ago, AmishMan53 said:

Minecraft is a terrible example for this particular comparison's sake, as it's not exactly pushing graphics.  It probably pushes memory and cpu harder then the graphics card.  Additionally, It had just a little over 2 years from public alpha/beta phase to full release.  Honestly, if minecraft was sold to me in alpha and stayed in alpha for 9 years, still having fps issues while shoveling out a 3rd rework to some in-game system.. i might just start expecting circles from Mojang.

 

I wasn't comparing Minecraft to this game on graphics or time spent in early access. My entire point was that Minecraft today from a playability standpoint is not a whole lot different than it was before it was released. On the day it released there was not some kind of quantum jump in performance and graphics over what it had been before it was released. Maybe I'll be wrong and one of the programmers will find that secret key to turn that will change everything. I'll be glad to be wrong in that case. I just think its best to keep expectations realistic. Every game I have followed that came out of early access had plenty of bad reviews from people who thought that Day 1 of official release was going to mean something grander and more glorious than it turned out to be and quite a few who actually accused the developers of failing to actually finish the game that they were now calling finished. Heck, we already get that now with people who get hung up on the phrase "stable branch" and what their personal expectations of that would be.

 

1 hour ago, AmishMan53 said:

You seem to be lumping anybody who complains with a "complain crowd" and think everyone who complains is the same with your final full paragraph.  Reporting experiencing bugs is often encouraged by developers, and depending the level of frustration a bug can cause it can often come across, or even be, complaining.

 

Interesting. My final paragraph had nothing to do with people complaining. It had to do with people's expectations and was a warning to not let them become unrealistically too high. Again, maybe I'm wrong and we will all be pleasantly surprised at the huge difference that the 1.0 designation will make. I have no issue with you complaining about 15 fps on horde night. You should complain about that. My post was not in any way trying to shame or dissuade people for complaining about their issues let alone trying to lump all people who have various complaints into the same type of complainer.

 

1 hour ago, AmishMan53 said:

i didn't come here to do any complaining or reporting or anything.. just came to check and see if their were mentions of optimizations (which of course, i'm sure they are always optimizing some.. but very notable bug fixes and optimizations likely would make it into patch notes).

 

Patch notes won't be released for A21 until experimental releases. They won't be posted in this thread in any case. There are patch notes listed for each of the 20.x updates in their relative threads that you can peruse although major optimizations that are risky to save games are not going to show up until the next major update anyway.

[AmishMan53]

@Roland To avoid a mile high post just not going to quote.

I can't wrap my head around the argument that a computer that meets the specs having the issues i presented, that anybody could consider that playable.  That being said.. i still play it.  Horde nights suck, but when i'm out in the middle of nowhere building a base or looting some areas it's not really that bad.  Wasteland at night sucks too tho.  My zombie count was actually brought lower to 6.  The only setting that was raised upwards was loot quantity, at 150%.  To be clear, ALL of my video settings are either at medium or lower, quite a few even turned off.  By the term alpha, i do understand this can be expected.  Cuz alpha has meaning, it's the stage of adding stuff, beta is technically optimization phase and ironing out bugs, and full release is when the devs think it's ready to be judged by the public.  9 years tho.. is where my gripe would be, and why i say anybody has a right to complain.

I digress on that tho, pointless to continue debating it.  My goal was to present reasonable fairness towards the complaints of another person as people were attacking him for his complaint.  I think it's fair to throw the "it's an alpha" argument out the window at 5 years, let alone 9.

 

"Patch notes won't be released for A21 until experimental releases".  This thread isn't where this conversation started.. it got moved out of the dev diary thread.  And patch notes are announced when they are confirmed as per the note at the top of the A21 Dev Diary, and only confirmed things get listed their.  The only thing i knew coming here was that it's been alpha 20 for quite a while.  

[Roland]

2 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

I can't wrap my head around the argument that a computer that meets the specs having the issues i presented, that anybody could consider that playable.  That being said.. i still play it.  Horde nights suck, but when i'm out in the middle of nowhere building a base or looting some areas it's not really that bad.  Wasteland at night sucks too tho.  My zombie count was actually brought lower to 6.  The only setting that was raised upwards was loot quantity, at 150%.  To be clear, ALL of my video settings are either at medium or lower, quite a few even turned off.  By the term alpha, i do understand this can be expected.  Cuz alpha has meaning, it's the stage of adding stuff, beta is technically optimization phase and ironing out bugs, and full release is when the devs think it's ready to be judged by the public.

I guess my argument boils down to the idea that your experience is not universal. The game is currently playable by a lot of people with a wide range of specs. We can’t know the settings and circumstances that everyone is using that makes the game unplayable to them but I will concede that the game may not be playable for you. I think we both agree that it isn’t ready yet and needs more work.
 

2 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

My goal was to present reasonable fairness towards the complaints of another person as people were attacking him for his complaint. 

 

heh…people weren’t attacking him for his actual game related complaint. It’s nice of you to back him up though. I’m always happy to see kindness in the forum. 
 

2 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

I think it's fair to throw the "it's an alpha" argument out the window at 5 years, let alone 9.

And why is that?

 

2 hours ago, AmishMan53 said:

"Patch notes won't be released for A21 until experimental releases".  This thread isn't where this conversation started.. it got moved out of the dev diary thread.  And patch notes are announced when they are confirmed as per the note at the top of the A21 Dev Diary, and only confirmed things get listed their. 

I was talking about the dev diary and not this thread. My reply to you was moved here as well. It isn’t the place to look for patch notes. They aren’t listed there. The list at the start is a confirmed features list and not a change log. Optimizations aren’t going to be listed there and neither are bug fixes that have happened. It is simply a list of confirmed features and changes relating to gameplay or content. 
 

As I said if you want patch notes then look at the patch note report for each version once it releases. A21 patch notes with bug fixes and optimization changes won’t be listed until A21 experimental is released. The most recent patch notes we have are for A20.6 and they are in the A20.6 Stable thread