Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[RipClaw]

23 minutes ago, Mister Forgash said:

Unless you have a self-imposed rule wherein you can only use gear that was player crafted, I expect the setbacks you encounter will be minor- but the benefit of smoother progression will be enjoyed .. No more - "I went 3 weeks before finding the forge recipe! Q_Q" - Nor will you feel forced to spec into it when this is the luck you have.

In A20, you have these two options to unlock the recipe for the forge. In A21 you will only have the magazines and no alternative. There are no more schematics and investing points in Advanced Engineer increases the probability of finding Forge Ahead magazines but it doesn't unlock the recipes anymore.

 

Progress may be smoother depending on the regularity with which you find the appropriate magazines, but the order is now fixed. First comes the dew collector and last the crucible. Everything is always unlocked in exactly the same order.

 

[Melange]

16 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Well, why are you playing 7D2D at all, then?

Man, I respect your opinions...though don't always agree.

 

But why would you even say this to a contributor to the forum? Think all you want, but you don't have to voice what you're initial thought is.

 

OK, you're blunt. I get it. But there's no need to be rude and/or demeaning. Back off a little and you may get more respect. And more positive interaction.

 

Just me seeing a trend that's become not so pleasant.

 

Crank it down a few notches please.

 

And we can continue to banter, joke and agree to disagree, just a tad more gently.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Melange (see edit history)

[Star69]

For those still arguing for ‘learn by doing’ and not understanding why it’s gone, I’d suggest clicking on Madmole’s name and go through his posts. He goes into great detail his and the teams decision to abandon that technique and why it was necessary. Heck, I even seem to remember that discussion about it was banned at some point on this forum.

 

Perk changes that are coming are to be expected. In A20, they began collecting internal game data which included which perks everyone was taking as well as the number of levels in those perks. Naturally it was to see which perks were being used and which weren’t so they can kill off or modify perks not used or rarely used as well as improve commonly used perks. It’s not about changing the perk system as a whole…..they are actually taking into account what players are doing and tweaking it for the better using actual player feedback as a whole, not based on the loudest voices on the forums. Those people opting out of allowing them to collect that data have no room to complain as this a way to give actual feedback on how you play the game.

[JCrook1028]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

Progress may be smoother depending on the regularity with which you find the appropriate magazines, but the order is now fixed. First comes the dew collector and last the crucible. Everything is always unlocked in exactly the same order.

That's the only issue I have with the change. I don't like it being so linear in unlocks. Maybe reading magazines could give you "points" to spend in whatever order you want within the "tree".

 I still find the hybrid system the perfect answer as in UL.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, RipClaw said:

And that's exactly the point. You have to be able to make a real decision.
 

If it is not possible to find the required amount of magazines to upgrade my equipment in the remaining time, then it is better to continue building in the hope that the base will be finished and still hold with the existing equipment. There is then no real decision one could make.

 

 

The real decision is between taking the safe route and the risky route. In card games many of the decisions are exactly like that.

 

If you could predict the outcome of a horde night with 100% accuracy then you might have a point. But the guy taking the risk and losing by not finding the recipe has still a good chance to live through horde night (probably with some more damage to the horde base, but ok, you can't win em all). And the guy taking the safe route might still get into trouble because he underestimated the horde or he made a mistake.

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[lord_ahriman]

7 hours ago, Laz Man said:

 

Thanks for the video link.  There was nothing new in his video that others haven't already expressed concerns over and have been responded to already.

 

In general the following were his worries.

 

1) RNG would be too heavy handed with drops and will cause player frustration.

 

2) Non looter players will have a harder time progressing their skills.

 

Magazines are pretty plentiful, so I don't think this will be a problem.  Whenever, I was in search of a particular magazine type, I would go out of my way to visit POIs that would have a greater chance of having the ones I wanted.  Since you can get them as rewards and for sale from the trader, players have many ways to obtain the types they are hunting for.

 

If there are some edge cases, it will be balanced accordingly.

 

Yes, this change does slow down crafting progression in some cases compared to A20. However, It is 100% more rewarding / engaging.  It may not be LBD, but it's the next best thing.  It makes crafting more accessible to all players regardless of build AND gives them a new activity to engage in.

 

Magazines are essentially a new valuable commodity for players to use, buy, sell or trade with other players.

 

This should improve the experience for all game modes versus how crafting was unlocked previously.  SP players, can work towards unlocking all crafting should they choose to do so, while MP players can work towards pooling their magazines on their dedicated crafters.

 

The team is well aware of all of the concerns, and are eagerly trying to wrap up this Alpha so you guys can give it a try. 😎

 

 

 

I think the new system will be extremely punitive for building players: gamestage will rise when building/gathering tons of resources (and we all know that takes a lot of time) at the same time said player will be stuck in the past (technologically speaking).

[Laz Man]

4 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

Other than 'Because the Devs don't want it,' is there any serious reasoning behind not having that which the developers don't seem interested in entertaining; on which some players are; in my opinion, vehemently, unreasonably, and almost pathologically against, a hybrid system?

 

LBLAD - Learn by Looting AND Doing.

 

Looting for magazines to craft items and learn by doing to improve other skills like mining, exercise, and even cooking. Or fun crossovers like creating better trainers (sneakers) to assist in the exercise, unlocking certain boosted recipes for cooking, and mod books for mining.

 

I would see the hybrid system as one which creates more depth and adds morr fun to the game, one which accomodates more people while at the same time making absolute sense.

 

This current incoming binary system creates a divide sharply in favour of a certain group, and since I am far from being a voracious looter, the new system interests me very little. That's not to say it's useless - but it is heavily weighted away from my playstyle.

 

I suspect an incoming answer is 'adapt.' If that is the case then anyone not playing Loot Lunatic will be told to move in that direction, and that looks strongly like being shoehorned into a particular playstyle, which bring me full circle to my original objection - to constraints and limitations.

 

I believe the reason has already been mentioned.  We are in the gold push now.  Could the original LBD be reimplemented in a way that is better then what we already have?  Maybe...

 

However, doing so would take too much time which is just not in the cards anymore.  It is more likely to happen in the next game potentially.

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 minute ago, lord_ahriman said:

 

I think the new system will be extremely punitive for building players: gamestage will rise when building/gathering tons of resources (and we all know that takes a lot of time) at the same time said player will be stuck in the past (technologically speaking).

 

Sure, but are you not underestimating the power of a good build?

 

I would expect a builder to be good at building bases so that he doesn't need the best weaponry as the base keeps the zombie away from him

 

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, Melange said:

17 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Well, why are you playing 7D2D at all, then?

Man, I respect your opinions...though don't always agree.

 

But why would you even say this to a contributor to the forum? Think all you want, but you don't have to voice what you're initial thought is.

 

OK, you're blunt. I get it. But there's no need to be rude and/or demeaning. Back off a little and you may get more respect. And more positive interaction.

Sorry, but I didn't realize I was being rude... can you quote where I said something that you perceived as being rude?

That wasn't my intention. I already explained that my question was NOT like saying "go play another game".

That was a misinterpretation on someone else's part, or to the least, a misunderstanding.

 

I'll try to be extremely clear of my intent now:

1. Khalagar said he/she wanted to change A, B, C, D, E and F of the current 7D2D version.
2. All those numerous changes would basically create a new game, or a completely different 7D2D.
3. Hence, why my question was (I'll unpack it now): "Since you want so many changes that the game would not actually be or play like 7D2D anymore, why are you even playing 7D2D? If you want so many changes, it's implied that you must hate the game as it is".

I hope it's more clear now. I have no quarrel against Khalagar in any way.

I just can't understand why some people ask for so many changes that would make the game unrecognizable: they basically want a different game!

[RipClaw]

37 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Sure, but are you not underestimating the power of a good build?

 

I would expect a builder to be good at building bases so that he doesn't need the best weaponry as the base keeps the zombie away from him

It depends on how big the gap is between the gamestage and your equipment. If you have Demolishers in your horde, but you don't even have a concrete mixer yet because of "not enough looting", then it could get really tight.  I can have the zombies run in circles, but I don't think the developers want that all builders start to use exploit bases.

 

The question is how much time do the developers expect me to spend looting? Do I have to loot the better part of the week or can I take a break for two weeks without falling too far behind?

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Fanatical_Meat]

The drama in these forums can be so tedious.

My newest peeve is:

“Whaaa, learn by looting means I have to carry magazines back to the people I play with. Whhaaa”

7 hours ago, RipClaw said:

It depends on how big the gap is between the gamestage and your equipment. If you have Demolishers in your horde, but you don't even have a concrete mixer yet because of "not enough looting", then it could get really tight.  I can have the zombies run in circles, but I don't think the developers want that all builders start to use exploit bases.

 

The question is how much time do the developers expect me to spend looting? Do I have to loot the better part of the week or can I take a break for two weeks without falling too far behind?

 

Going to guess the amount of looting will be directly related to the loot setting in the game, which is adjustable.

Also thank you for not complaining about having to carry unused magazines back to base.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Fanatical_Meat (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

28 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

It depends on how big the gap is between the gamestage and your equipment. If you have Demolishers in your horde, but you don't even have a concrete mixer yet because of "not enough looting", then it could get really tight.  I can have the zombies run in circles, but I don't think the developers want that all builders start to use exploit bases.

 

The question is how much time do the developers expect me to spend looting? Do I have to loot the better part of the week or can I take a break for two weeks without falling too far behind?

 

 

The cement mixer is unlocked pretty early in the workstation crafting category while demolishers come at a pretty late game stage.  Players should have more then enough time to get there, especially if they focus on workstation crafting.

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

 

I believe the reason has already been mentioned.  We are in the gold push now.  Could the original LBD be reimplemented in a way that is better then what we already have?  Maybe...

 

However, doing so would take too much time which is just not in the cards anymore.  It is more likely to happen in the next game potentially.

 

 

Hey Laz, thank you for the reply. 

 

That's very sad news. However, is there any chance that modders could reimplement it? 

 

I would gladly donate many times the price of the game to anyone or group looking to reimplement any of the old systems, but that would require some facilitation by the developers.

 

Thank you 👍🏻

Edited September 4, 2022 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

10 minutes ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Going to guess the amount of looting will be directly related to the loot setting in the game, which is adjustable.

That was not my point. It's about how much you have to loot with default settings. Creating a mod that gives me ten times more magazines would be a matter of 5 minutes.

 

It should be known that there is a wide range of player types in this game. There are those who play the game as a lootshooter and those who play it like Minecraft.

The task of balancing is to find some sort of middle ground.

 

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

The real decision is between taking the safe route and the risky route. In card games many of the decisions are exactly like that.

And that's why casinos collect so much money from people who like to take a risk.

 

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

If you could predict the outcome of a horde night with 100% accuracy then you might have a point. But the guy taking the risk and losing by not finding the recipe has still a good chance to live through horde night (probably with some more damage to the horde base, but ok, you can't win em all). And the guy taking the safe route might still get into trouble because he underestimated the horde or he made a mistake.

Even if you can't predict it 100%, you have experience. If the base barely withstood the last horde, it will most likely barely withstand the next one.

In addition, you have experience when it comes to looting. If you know how many magazines you find per day on average, you can estimate what your chances are of finding the magazines you need in time.

 

[lord_ahriman]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Sure, but are you not underestimating the power of a good build?

 

I would expect a builder to be good at building bases so that he doesn't need the best weaponry as the base keeps the zombie away from him

 

 

Good build needs tech and builders couldn't have the time needed in the new system. I don't know, I'm really skeptical. I like the new "water survival minigame"and of course I need to watch a gameplay before any conclusions, but as of now, "learn by looting" is a very bad idea.

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

The cement mixer is unlocked pretty early in the workstation crafting category while demolishers come at a pretty late game stage.  Players should have more then enough time to get there, especially if they focus on workstation crafting.

Hopefully, by the time the first demolishers show up, I'll have upgraded my base to steel and not just concrete.

 

I took the demolisher and the base, that is not even upgraded to concrete, as an extreme example because players who like to build but don't like to loot are afraid that this is exactly what will happen if the balancing is tailored to players who loot 7 days a week. If you look at the comments under the Youtube video, you can see that very clearly.

 

[doughphunghus]

I *feel* that “learn by looting”’s actual Purpose is to force people into a specific progression skill tree (you have to find and read magazines to progress) to control the “escalating flow” of days progressing (kinda like trying to stretch out the progression so that people play to at least “day x” when they finally get mor things, to help alleviate speed leveling AND (more importantly) to punish building a bit, as most of the game is *not* building.  In doing this, hopefully by each horde night you *don’t” have a perfectly perfect base, because you had to spend time running around, thus making each horde night a little more exciting besides sitting inside a castle and taking out zeds without a care in the world.

 

The main complaints I have seen are “but what about the builders, that only build!”.  Well, other than “you better have nice friends/family that care enough about you to either bring back magazines OR craft items for you” I think the idea is, if you don’t have this as part of your team… you’re going to suffer so get out there and find a good team to support you or learn to suffer if you only build.

 

It’s like mining. If you’re only going to mine, and are alone.. you’re going to have a hard time.

[Laz Man]

2 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

Hey Laz, thank you for the reply. 

 

That's very sad news. However, is there any chance that modders could reimplement it? 

 

I would gladly donate many times the price of the game to anyone or group looking to reimplement any of the old systems, but that would require some facilitation by the developers.

 

Thank you 👍🏻

 

Have you played either Darkness Falls or Undead Legacy?  If not, those overhauls might be exactly what you are looking for.  AFAIK, both of those overhauls have reintroduced some form of LBD (action skills).

[Khalagar]

11 hours ago, Laz Man said:

 

Thanks for the video link.  There was nothing new in his video that others haven't already expressed concerns over and have been responded to already.

 

I've not really seen anything that addresses the "The zombies were training" issue, where this change makes any non-looting task a now sub-optimal time usage. Base building and mining etc were always purely optional but were there for people who enjoyed them, except now you are directly punished by doing it instead of spending your time doing literally nothing besides chain quest building clearing as fast as you can to find magazines.

 

I agree heavily with the hybrid system (since learn by doing was objectively the best system imo lol) as it gives you a reward for everything you want to engage in. Currently if you spend some time leveling out an area around your base and mining and building etc, you've just wasted a day and raised your gamestage and fell behind anyone else in your group who was looting. IMO some kind of hybrid system should at least let you keep up.

 

It's not even about making non-looting the optimal playstyle or more rewarding, it's just about not being actively punished for doing anything else *but* looting. This change just seems like yet another one where it's forcing the devs mandatory play style on the player and limits the game in really weird ways. That's why I brought up the attribute system too, because it also locks the player into the only playstyle the devs wanted, like machine guns being paired with brass knuckles instead of being able to make your own build and use a machine gun and a machete or a spear or whatever you thought sounded fun.

 

The LBL change makes it so chain questing went from already SSSSSSSS tier, to "If you do literally anything else you are actually actively gimping yourself" by powering up enemies while you stagnate, and putting you behind everyone else, which is a vicious cycle in every game that has it because then you reach a stage where you aren't geared for your own quest stage and have to be carried by your friends to even do your own quests

 

  

3 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

 

1. Khalagar said he/she wanted to change A, B, C, D, E and F of the current 7D2D version.

 

Nah I posted it as basically an "aside" where the main point was the Learn by Looting issues, then with a few page breaks to make it clear it was a separate issue, just talked about the attribute system being janky AF because it also does need updating while they are reworking the perk trees

 

  

3 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

 

I just can't understand why some people ask for so many changes that would make the game unrecognizable: they basically want a different game!

 

 

Yeah man that's crazy, like imagine if the devs were overhauling stuff drastically by doing something major like completely revamping the crafting system to use magazines. That's probably too much work though and would change 7 Days to Die to a completely different game entirely from A20! </s>

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Khalagar (see edit history)

[Mister Forgash]

12 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

The LBL change makes it so chain questing went from already SSSSSSSS tier, to "If you do literally anything else you are actually actively gimping yourself" by powering up enemies while you stagnate, and putting you behind everyone else, which is a vicious cycle in every game that has it because then you reach a stage where you aren't geared for your own quest stage and have to be carried by your friends to even do your own quests

 

I'm not saying the concern isn't valid. But until we're experiencing it, I feel like it's a little early to be calling out doom and gloom.

We all know Madmole likes to build, I can't imagine he's going to punish the builders that much.. I forget if he's a fan of mining.. Either way, though, I'm not really convinced of anything until experimental drops. - That'll tell us how the balance skews. All that said, there's sub-optimal choices in every game, particularly RPGs and people make it work all the time. - I highly doubt it's as punishing as you suggest. I'm keeping my pitchfork on standby until then and letting it rest for now.

For those who choose to play with altered difficulty settings: Insane zombies, always run, etc. I think a certain amount of min/maxing to to be expected.. We'll see what normies can get away with.

[Laz Man]

54 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

 

I've not really seen anything that addresses the "The zombies were training" issue, where this change makes any non-looting task a now sub-optimal time usage. Base building and mining etc were always purely optional but were there for people who enjoyed them, except now you are directly punished by doing it instead of spending your time doing literally nothing besides chain quest building clearing as fast as you can to find magazines.

 

I agree heavily with the hybrid system (since learn by doing was objectively the best system imo lol) as it gives you a reward for everything you want to engage in. Currently if you spend some time leveling out an area around your base and mining and building etc, you've just wasted a day and raised your gamestage and fell behind anyone else in your group who was looting. IMO some kind of hybrid system should at least let you keep up.

 

It's not even about making non-looting the optimal playstyle or more rewarding, it's just about not being actively punished for doing anything else *but* looting. This change just seems like yet another one where it's forcing the devs mandatory play style on the player and limits the game in really weird ways. That's why I brought up the attribute system too, because it also locks the player into the only playstyle the devs wanted, like machine guns being paired with brass knuckles instead of being able to make your own build and use a machine gun and a machete or a spear or whatever you thought sounded fun.

 

The LBL change makes it so chain questing went from already SSSSSSSS tier, to "If you do literally anything else you are actually actively gimping yourself" by powering up enemies while you stagnate, and putting you behind everyone else, which is a vicious cycle in every game that has it because then you reach a stage where you aren't geared for your own quest stage and have to be carried by your friends to even do your own quests

 

  

 

Nah I posted it as basically an "aside" where the main point was the Learn by Looting issues, then with a few page breaks to make it clear it was a separate issue, just talked about the attribute system being janky AF because it also does need updating while they are reworking the perk trees

 

  

 

 

Yeah man that's crazy, like imagine if the devs were overhauling stuff drastically by doing something major like completely revamping the crafting system to use magazines. That's probably too much work though and would change 7 Days to Die to a completely different game entirely from A20! </s>

 

 

 

Funny meme about gamestaging but that isn't something new introduced by this crafting system change.  Believe it or not, this change is comparatively smaller and less disruptive to other systems than a complete redesign/reintroduction of attributes, XP, LBD, perks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mstdv inc]

7 hours ago, Xeen said:

While reading the last couple pages I started thinking about what changes I would like to see to the game as far as skills go.

I would like to see a couple new melee skills like dodge and parry.
I never feel safe meleeing because the zombies just beat the hell out of you, it would be nice if you could dodge and parry the attacks a little bit.

This is also an opportunity to add a new skill to the melee tree for us to spend skill points on and add a few magazines that are defense oriented.

Each branch has perks for melee and ranged weapons.If there are no changes planned in the future, then the game implies that you use melee weapons only at the initial stages of the game and sooner or later you will come to firearms.It is already difficult to imagine how you will complete tier 4/5 quests and fight off 10-15 radiation zombies, how you will fight off the horde and how in the future you will confront bandits with melee weapons.

5 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

I just can't understand why some people ask for so many changes that would make the game unrecognizable: they basically want a different game!

And this other game is very likely to be able to provide modders after the release of the game.

[Roland]

13 hours ago, Mister Forgash said:

Roland, if you move my first post, I'll be mega-sad. ;(

 

I'd get you a jar to collect your tears but there aren't any anymore.

[Laz Man]

29 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I'd get you a jar to collect your tears but there aren't any anymore.

Too soon...too soon....lolol