Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Blake_ said:

Dishong Tower climbing

 

ugh...who still does that? Nirvana is landing on the roof and then descending....  

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

I think the biggest complaint we will see is the loss of control over being able to quickly level up in the ladder we want to quickly level up in. 

 

I don't think that's what people want. People want a story, progression, and end game stuff to do - not to race through levels and bore themselves to tears by doing so when they reach a singular or group Alpha state.

 

Learn by doing. I will again take this opportunity to publicly mourn the loss of that amazing system.

 

That is exactly the opposite of levelling up fast, gave a genuine feeling of reward for the time put into doing something long enough to earn their skill boost. Punching a few dogs to death then suddenly knowing how to craft a motorbike for example was and is an absurd non-sequitur and removed the challenge and in turn removed a genuine extension of playtime.

 

This is one of the things I miss and, on your point of the playerbase; and only I can speak for me, but as I said before I get bored faster with each alpha from about 17 onwards.

 

Not because of burnout because I thoroughly enjoy other aspects of 7D, the building system for example is outstanding. But because the new stuff and fluff just isn't enough to compensate for the good things lost. The more 7d apologists dismiss opinions like mine as sentimentality that we need to get over, and not discuss it seriously with the possibility of non modded reversal or options, then who knows?

 

Once the games sold and Steams refund has passed, and the money is in the devs pockets, what do they care. They aren't just making a game for themselves, but a player base - one composed of lots of opinions about what's been and whats gone, and I think we drive the change either proactively or passively by open discussion and/or passive acceptance of whatever the devs change, and/or Dev Apologists who defend anything the developers do.

 

The difference between good developers and other kinds is the involvement of the playerbase over devs know best, which clearly isn't always the case.

 

Kust some thoughts of mine.

[Roland]

32 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

I don't think that's what people want. People want a story, progression, and end game stuff to do - not to race through levels and bore themselves to tears by doing so when they reach a singular or group Alpha state.

 

Learn by doing. I will again take this opportunity to publicly mourn the loss of that amazing system.

 

That is exactly the opposite of levelling up fast, gave a genuine feeling of reward for the time put into doing something long enough to earn their skill boost. Punching a few dogs to death then suddenly knowing how to craft a motorbike for example was and is an absurd non-sequitur and removed the challenge and in turn removed a genuine extension of playtime.

 

I don't believe you are being fair. You are glamorizing the system you like and intentionally putting the one you don't into absurd terms. You have asked for an honest analysis a number of times and so I shall give you one.

 

Both systems can be rushed and both systems can be played organically. Players would speed run the progression just as much under LBD as they do now with central pool xp and skill points. People could play LBD naturally and organically if they so chose and people can do so with central pool xp if they so choose. LBD emphasized doing a single action type in order to increase the skill for that action type. Skillpoints emphasizes the growth of the character through various and all actions. Both are valid and amazing systems that work well. I enjoyed both and I recognize the strengths and weaknesses of both. In all cases, you get out of a game what you put into it and abusing any given system will make it appear absurd while using it to organically progress gives a feeling of reward and accomplishment. I have found both systems can deliver this result.

 

I know that many people have cast an unfair light upon LBD making it appear absurd over the last few years which may cause a desire to respond in kind about the current system but since you have asked for an honest discussion, let's leave behind the rhetoric and be honest. Both designs work and are good designs and multiple games have used both with success and regardless of whether a person likes or dislikes one or the other, that doesn't mean one design is actually trash and the other is treasure.

 

43 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

This is one of the things I miss and, on your point of the playerbase; and only I can speak for me, but as I said before I get bored faster with each alpha from about 17 onwards.

 

Thanks for your feedback.

 

44 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Not because of burnout because I thoroughly enjoy other aspects of 7D, the building system for example is outstanding. But because the new stuff and fluff just isn't enough to compensate for the good things lost. The more 7d apologists dismiss opinions like mine as sentimentality that we need to get over, and not discuss it seriously with the possibility of non modded reversal or options, then who knows?

 

Speaking as an official representative of TFP, I can tell you unequivocably that no amount of serious discussion is going to reverse this game back to the direction of LBD. That isn't to say that the devs did not take the counter arguments seriously and did not weigh their choices carefully before changing the method of progression. In fact, it was a process that spanned from A11-A17 in which we saw the game start from a purely LBD model and slowly change towards a skillpoint model. LBD disappeared bit by bit until it was finally gone in A17. That was a period of about 3 years in which the team discussed, developed, and ultimately came to their final decision. Now we have seen their final system get refined and modified since A17 and now the game is almost a wrap. Please know that regardless of the snarky back and forth over LBD by community members, TFP has always taken their game seriously and been very careful in their decisions. I say this plainly and simply and with no intention of sneering about it. I'm simply being honest that there is 0 chance of getting LBD for player progression outside of modding.

 

53 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

Once the games sold and Steams refund has passed, and the money is in the devs pockets, what do they care. They aren't just making a game for themselves, but a player base - one composed of lots of opinions about what's been and whats gone, and I think we drive the change either proactively or passively by open discussion and/or passive acceptance of whatever the devs change, and/or Dev Apologists who defend anything the developers do.

 

The difference between good developers and other kinds is the involvement of the playerbase over devs know best, which clearly isn't always the case.

 

As a general statement of what could occur in this industry I agree. I personally don't think your description fits TFP. They have always cared about this game being the best that it can be according to their goals and just because the game has been financially successful and they can't lose that money to refunds doesn't mean they don't care. They absolutely care about how people react to what they have done. All of us are excited for experimental so that you all can try the new features and we hope that you will like them and it is hugely disappointing when people don't like them.

 

Some people feel like the money they paid gives them the right to be part of the directing team and that the player base that supported the game by paying for it should be able to override what the devs want to do and that the devs shouldn't change anything without first asking the player base who paid for the game if they want those changes. 

 

Others feel like the money they paid gives them the right to play the game and witness the changes that occur during development and it's nice to be able to give feedback but ultimately the final decision rests with the developers and the final product will be whatever they create.

 

Still others just buy the game and play it for what it is at that moment in time until they get bored and then move on without ever following a single bit of it's development. They may come back to it and play again later but probably didn't pay attention enough to really register the changes. They know something is different but are not sure what it is.

 

I am in that second group and disagree with the assertions of the first group and have been in the third group for other early access games in my library.

[Lasher]

On 8/16/2022 at 5:05 PM, outhous said:

Well how many copies of the game were sold?

How many people come to the forums?

How many people actually post on the forums?

How many people complain about farming on the forums?

So obviously, farming complainers ARE a minority.

Which just means that the folk who actually complain about it could still be a small minority of the people who hate it.

So no, you can't prove it.

TBH outhous I'm done arguing with you about it - you don't seem to have a point so how about not blathering on about it?

 

[Viktoriusiii]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

Okay, fine. I change "the entire" to "an entire". Still doesn't scan with historical evidence.

I've never really said that before. I said "alienate", and what I meant was "they are even more unhappy".
And if 5% of players never come back, but 50% of players come because of advertising... you wouldn't know, even if I had meant that.

5 hours ago, Roland said:

Does that disenfranchise those who never really cared for looting but were able to play their mole game while the game was still underdeveloped for them to do so? I agree that it probably will. But TFP is actually doing what most of the fans want. Of course, those whose playstyle isn't the popular way would call that "selling out". Game studios can't win. Either they are prigs who don't listen to their player base or they are greedy @%$#s who McDonalds-ize themselves to the majority to just make money and forget their original dream. 

Indie games... I guess you are right. When you have the chance to become a casual game, I guess you better take it.
I just like nieche games more that do not succomb to the lowest common denominator.

5 hours ago, Roland said:

I thought you said you didn't have a problem with exploring or are you again channeling the desires of that other group whose torch you're carrying and you want different approaches for them?

I dislike the idea, even if I am not personally affected. I can critique something that is not directly influencing me, you know?
Even if I knew none of those moles, I could still voice these opinions, if I thought they are overall degrading the game to some extent.

5 hours ago, Roland said:

I think it is also reasonable to expect people to mod the game to de-emphasize exploration and looting if they wish. This isn't "fixing" the broken game but simply shifting the design to something they like better and it is great that it can be done. It's easy to believe that the way you want the game to play is the 5-star restaurant of design while the way you don't like automatically means that it is the McDonalds of design. I think it is just a different 5-star restaurant those other people don't care for but calling it McDonalds makes them feel better.

I mean... you DO know that is a cop-out argument that any game could use, right?
Bethesda doesn't have bugs, it has features. And if you don't like it, just install the unofficial patch. Not their responsibility to provide a game you like...

It is not even officially supported...

5 hours ago, Roland said:

No, but it is more likely to make listeners roll their eyes rather than take you seriously. I think it is always best for people to just voice their own opinions and not to try to champion the cause of some other group they aren't a part of.

I am not championing for their cause.
They are not my shield, they are but one arrow in a barrage of reasons, why I do not think this is a good choice.

[meganoth]

Making a mod so that a mole could craft magazines out of diamonds is one of the most trivial mods anyone could make. If moles are say 5% of the player base how probable is it that none of them can mod something basic as this and put it into the mod section for others to use?

 

Also nobody said anything about whether those moles are playing co-op MP or are single players. In co-op they get their magazines from their co-op players (at least if we can trust Rolands experience of the magazine bonus being very small). Only if someone wants to play single-player mole he would need to consider installing a mod or using creative mode.

 

So, if the moles are really interested in playing on, they can and probably will adapt.

 

"Oh, but saying they have to mod the game is a cop-out". Since Bethesda was brought up as an example, I never heard of a single player who doesn't mod that game by now. Why shouldn't someone with an "extreme" play-style have to mod the game a bit?

 

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[jdifran]

13 hours ago, KhaineGB said:

Honestly, it's more that I can see people getting frustrated if they can't find the books, especially on MP.

I see it a lot with DF. Even then, players can be very resistant to spending points. I just think it's a good OPTION to have.

 

If they get the weighted looting odds right and folks reliably get enough of the books for the trees they've perked into, that should go a long way.  They could even add a slider in settings to increase or decrease the weight.  Ensuring that the traders always have a good supply of books would also help avoid frustration when you're screwed by the RNG.

[KhaineGB]

11 minutes ago, jdifran said:

 

If they get the weighted looting odds right and folks reliably get enough of the books for the trees they've perked into, that should go a long way.  They could even add a slider in settings to increase or decrease the weight.  Ensuring that the traders always have a good supply of books would also help avoid frustration when you're screwed by the RNG.

I mean this with no disrespect... how much MP have you played?

Because on running servers, cities near spawn are often picked clean like a plaque of locusts has been through, which will severely impact the players ability to get books, regardless of perks.

That's the problem I'm refering to.

[jdifran]

5 minutes ago, KhaineGB said:

I mean this with no disrespect... how much MP have you played?

Because on running servers, cities near spawn are often picked clean like a plaque of locusts has been through, which will severely impact the players ability to get books, regardless of perks.

That's the problem I'm refering to.

 

Sorry, Khaine, that's my bad.  I was jumping in and didn't realize you were talking specifically about MP.  

[KhaineGB]

Yep, that's why I suggested the point ALTERNATIVE as it would be good for situations like that.

[Roland]

5 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

I've never really said that before. I said "alienate", and what I meant was "they are even more unhappy".
And if 5% of players never come back, but 50% of players come because of advertising... you wouldn't know, even if I had meant that.

 

You did say it and I did quote you directly. If what you said is not what you meant then fine. I'm willing to accept what you saying you mean and agree that people can be alienated by a change and become unhappy.

 

What advertising? Why do you have to phrase it that 5% leave because the gameplay is not what they like but the 50% who come in are somehow duped by advertising. We don't do any advertising other than showing gameplay footage and 99% of that is by independent streamers who may or may not be saying good things about us while they play. If 50% more people come in, it is more likely that they like what they are seeing and want to play.

 

5 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Indie games... I guess you are right. When you have the chance to become a casual game, I guess you better take it.
I just like nieche games more that do not succomb to the lowest common denominator.

 

No,  you like niche games that conform to your own desires and if they don't you accuse the developers of either failing to listen or going casual. I've heard you many times accuse them of failing to listen and now you are accusing them of going casual. Not liking a game because it doesn't match your preferences is normal and there's nothing wrong with that. I can respect the idea that you don't like the game as much as you used to. But failing to recognize that that is all that it is and then accusing the devs of selling out or being uncaring is missing the mark.

 

5 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

I dislike the idea, even if I am not personally affected.

 

Okay. Thanks for sharing your own feedback. Hopefully when you get a chance to play it you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

5 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

I mean... you DO know that is a cop-out argument that any game could use, right?
Bethesda doesn't have bugs, it has features. And if you don't like it, just install the unofficial patch. Not their responsibility to provide a game you like...

It is not even officially supported...

 

Well if you are going to equate bugs to design changes then we can't even form a common basis for discussion. In my opinion, the changes to the game design are not bugs. They are intentional design changes and as I mentioned elsewhere I think they are just as valid and work just as well as other design choice. That we may or may not like them as much will vary from person to person but it doesn't make them bugs that modding must fix. It simply makes them gameplay designs that modders will change.

 

 

[Annihilatorza]

On 8/17/2022 at 6:01 PM, Roland said:

I won't demand a game from him within a few months but how about a mod? If he has all these better ideas for how the game should be and knows unity, then building off the 7 Days to Die platform to create a mod should be a piece of cake. I'd be happy to play his mod. Maybe he's working on his own road map before he starts....

Nah Roland, Let him put his money where his mouth is. 

 

Build a complete voxel based game with the following by Xmas

 

Base Building

Hoard Night 

Every block breakable

Farming

Electricity

HD Zombies

Weapons

Vehicles

Wind System

Feral System

Day Night Cycle

Looting

Crafting

Armour System

10km2 maps 

Ect....

 

@faatal

 

Does occlusion work on game objects such are cars, beds lamps ect or is just Buildings and the like?

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Annihilatorza (see edit history)

[bdubyah]

1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

Hmm just read up on the changes coming in a21 and pretty iffy on some of them, especially the learn by looting ones

 

Dunno, guess we'll see when it is fully here, but the game has been heavily heavily heavily killing the "den mother" role from online groups for several updates now and this change just completely does it in entirely. Every online group I've seen usually ends up with 1 player who mostly just enjoys building and gathering and stays at home and handles the crafting etc, while the others go off doing questing.

 

I'm confused on why it's even seen as such an egregious problem to TFP to the point of the last several alpha crapping on it, but rip to that entire entire side of the game I guess. Learn by Looting just means any time spent in your base is basically wasted time now and it makes the game even more of a "just chain run quests nonstop" game

Easy, just tell your friends what kind of books you need and have them bring the extras/ones they don't need back for you. They sound like they will be fairly common so getting extra copies shouldn't be that hard for a group.

[Khalagar]

1 hour ago, bdubyah said:

Easy, just tell your friends what kind of books you need and have them bring the extras/ones they don't need back for you. They sound like they will be fairly common so getting extra copies shouldn't be that hard for a group.

 

Which takes precious inventory space / requires people remember to bring books back etc. Dunno just seems like a change that makes life a lot more complicated to resolve an issue that didn't exist. I'm honestly not understanding what the point of the change even was / what it's targeted at fixing

Edited August 21, 2022 by Khalagar (see edit history)

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

7 hours ago, MikeSixx said:

I really love return to sandom recipies. Fist step (back) to right direction in years. 

But "Interactive Environmental Hazards" 
that filed concept in context of this game. Year is is that lazy and hacky "puzzle" in solo computer game but did you forgot this is VOXEL game. 
1st thing I would do is destroy the broken pipe block, not expecting it to put out the fire but just to my suspicion that have no effect on the now completely illogical and detached flame even on the adjacent block.  

Then I would just go through the wall or climb up the wall with frames or ladders and break in from upper floor window.  

Yes, environmental hazard is great idea, it just in not for the concept of this game. A good "environmental hazard" concept is hostile biomes. As it is direction the game is already going. Like having to discover and craft cold water gear to survive on snow biome. Or to lesser degree desert biome having water much more rare in it. Burned biome could require gas mask and filters that wear out. So untill you are able to craft the gear you could not access those biomes. That would give more to play for in this game. 
Then is the radiation biome (and I do not mean destroyed bome) that been discussed for years and radiation gear has even been added to game for it. 

This would be much more interesting goal than perks and new gear as that would give the player more to play for. And certain items and matrial could be more abundant in certain biomes. That would add like more depth to the game. Also that the enemy levels would not jsut magically scale up at same time  as your character gets better that makes it pointless to imrpve your charter as you are just treading water. every time you make you character little stronger the opposition just gets just as much stringer. 
Just like now the destroyed area is the high lever area in the game, the level of opponent could be by region, so player would themselves get to choose when to upp the challenge (and with it  the rewards) by moving to higher level biome. This would also encourage players to travel more, not just camp same 1-3 cities for loot respawns. 

 

 

Great points here 👍🏻

 

2 hours ago, Khalagar said:

 

Which takes precious inventory space / requires people remember to bring books back etc. Dunno just seems like a change that makes life a lot more complicated to resolve an issue that didn't exist. I'm honestly not understanding what the point of the change even was / what it's targeted at fixing

 

Hey Khal, great thing to point out.

 

I recently stated that one thing the devs are doing is adding things we don't need (lamps and plants) and not adding things we do need (more vanilla vehicles, more zombies - this list could go on forever.)

 

Your point highlights just another one of those things we didn't need 👍🏻

 

(P.s - the above is not fallacious - not either this OR that, both things could be added but I think ridding the game of at least some of the Attack of the Clones feel would be more beneficial than an old piano. I understand prop designers may not be the people who can make zombies but it begs the question of what they are doing. More POI's are added to get rid of the sameness but the most blatant interactive entities (the zombies) is apparently a non issue? Lol.)

 

Maybe restructure to have the fluff as a slower additiom which I'm sure people can wait for. I think I might; with therapy and meds, just be able to make it to the next alpha without being able to experience a wheelchair model.)

Edited August 21, 2022 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

50 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

 

Which takes precious inventory space / requires people remember to bring books back etc. Dunno just seems like a change that makes life a lot more complicated to resolve an issue that didn't exist. I'm honestly not understanding what the point of the change even was / what it's targeted at fixing

 

Crafting for the most part has fallen behind in significance to looting for several alphas now.  Although looting is still involved in this change (loot mags), it does make crafting more significant again.  All Weapon / Armor parts are now more valuable since the player no longer needs to level up a specific perk in order to craft a higher quality item.  

 

There was also the issue of perking into a specific line of armor/weapons which would unlock all quality levels of every type in that tree.

 

See video explanation below.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[NekoPawtato]

2 hours ago, Khalagar said:

 

Which takes precious inventory space / requires people remember to bring books back etc. 

I feel like this problem already sort of exists with perk books 

Generally when I play with small groups we are in voice chat and someone will find a book and ask "anyone need ____ book?" 

Or if we specialize and know who is speccing into what, we bring the book back for them

 

Even if we don't know who needs the book, I guess our group has more of a mindset to just bring back books anyway (if it's not a book related to what you are specializing into) because someone will end up needing it

 

Though if A21 means on average you'll need more inventory space while looting due to these new magazines, then it might make it more balanced if additional slots were added to the players inventory 

not necessarily one slot for each new magazine, but if these mags are very common and you constantly find them while looting then maybe some fraction of that 

Edited August 21, 2022 by NekoPawtato (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

Crafting for the most part has fallen behind in significance to looting for several alphas now.

And now crafting is controlled by looting. Yes, I know that you can buy the magazines from the trader or get them as quest rewards, but it is likely to be significantly less than the amount you get when you loot. So the progress will be much slower without looting.
 

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

All Weapon / Armor parts are now more valuable since the player no longer needs to level up a specific perk in order to craft a higher quality item.  

That's about the only advantage. But you can't craft the parts, you have to loot them as well.

 

This makes looting and zombie killing the only two aspects of the game that are not optional. You don't have to build a base to survive, you don't have to have a farm, and mining isn't something you have to do to survive. This makes me very sad because these are the aspects that brought me to the game in the first place.

 

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

That's about the only advantage. But you can't craft the parts, you have to loot them as well.

Do you mean you wish to go back to (what was it?) A9/A10 where you had molds to craft the parts? It's been ages since anyone was able to craft gun parts in the game, so why is this any different from the previous versions? You've had to loot parts since forever: nothing has changed there.

 

3 hours ago, Khalagar said:

Which takes precious inventory space / requires people remember to bring books back etc.

OMG!! That's atrocious! ... Are you saying the friends in your group will have to think about you when going out looting? 

 

But seriously, you MP/COOP guys are always lamenting about this and that, what about us Single Players?

I'm still waiting for TFP to fix Charismatic Nature to have some use in SP too! What about that?

 

You're seeing things from you MP/COOP player point of view, but I only play SP, and from my own perspective these changes sound fun and necessary to get a better survival experience all in all.

 

=====================================================================================================

The real issue here, IMHO, is that the devs should make some parts of the game "act" differently, depending on how the player is playing.

If the player is playing MP/COOP, make some perks/skills work one way. If the player is playing SP, make some perks/skills play a different way.

 

You can't possibly and reasonably have a good gameplay balance for both MP and SP at the same time!

Edited August 21, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

1 minute ago, Jost Amman said:

Do you mean you wish to go back to (what was it?) A9/A10 where you had molds to craft the parts? It's been ages since anyone was able to craft gun parts in the game, so why is this any different from the previous versions? You've had to loot parts since forever: nothing has changed there.

Actually, there is no need to go back to A9 or A10. Up to A18, only firearms and power tools required parts. Everything else could be made without parts. In A17 you could also make firearms without parts because they removed them from the game. In A18, the non-craftable parts made their comeback. 
 

I had meant this in the context that you can get the magazines from the trader. They are just not much use without the parts you have to loot. If you buy the parts from the trader and then sell him the crafted weapon, that is unlikely to be profitable.

 

[Khalagar]

3 hours ago, Laz Man said:

 

 it does make crafting more significant again. 

 

 

 

Were loot drops changed, I'm not finding info that? Since like he even brought up in the video you linked, using the A20 loot drops at least, there's literally no situation where I would *ever* bother crafting a gun in A21, I would just run quests to get it from the boss loot chest or the quest reward literally a thousand times faster than trying to find hundreds of magazines to unlock a high quality, high tier craftable.

 

Not to mention  it still being completely pointless to waste resources crafting if you still can't craft T6

 

 

38 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

OMG!! That's atrocious! ... Are you saying the friends in your group will have to think about you when going out looting? 

 

Tell me you've never played multiplayer without telling you've never played multiplayer lol

 

Just getting people not to instantly eat every skill book is often hard, and begging them to pick up the loot and materials that aren't just bullets / guns is nigh impossible with the types who just want to raid PoI nonstop. But more than that, asking them to bring back an entire inventory full of books (the video shows it taking 60+ books to unlock TIER ONE versions of weapons) isn't addressing my entire point, that it just ends a whole role in the game for people who like to build and mine and stuff.

 

 

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

You don't have to build a base to survive, you don't have to have a farm, and mining isn't something you have to do to survive

 

This. Mining was basically deleted from the game with A19 and A20, and now building and stuff will be very sub-optimal because you aren't spending that time looting for skill books instead. I used to always be a miner who lived at bedrock up until the changes to stamina and food drain made it so mining without an auger was a total farce, so I haven't had a bedrock base or bothered mining much at all in the last few alpha.

 

It's so weird what areas the devs focus on. If someone says "Why should I play 7 Days to Die over Rust with a zombie mod or any other survival game" you start talking about the voxel based terrain allowing you to mine and do all kinds of really cool stuff, except that has basically been completely ditched / ignored and there's literally no reason to ever dig in 7 Days anymore. Each alpha seems to turn the game more into just a looter shooter, where it has fierce competition from other survival games that already have that niche well covered, and to me, it makes me scratch my head on why the devs don't instead focus on the unique aspect of 7 Days by adding underground cave systems with infected nests and tunneling zombies and other voxel only ideas

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Khalagar (see edit history)

[Arma Rex]

5 hours ago, unholyjoe said:

yes the plains was removed ages ago... but the burnt biome has been blended in with the wasteland biome now.

I'd like to see the forest and plain make a return. Perhaps blending the forest with the pine, and the plains with the desert. One can dream ha ha.

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

Actually, there is no need to go back to A9 or A10. Up to A18, only firearms and power tools required parts. Everything else could be made without parts. In A17 you could also make firearms without parts because they removed them from the game. In A18, the non-craftable parts made their comeback. 
 

I had meant this in the context that you can get the magazines from the trader. They are just not much use without the parts you have to loot. If you buy the parts from the trader and then sell him the crafted weapon, that is unlikely to be profitable.

Good point. I forgot they removed parts at some point. Anyway, the "parts conundrum" can be solved by having others give you the parts they loot (not ideal), or just buy Q1 weapons from the trader and scrap them for the parts you need.

 

As for the "profit / loss" mechanics, if you want to profit, don't sell the weapons you craft! ... heck, selling each of the parts separately instead of the whole gun has always been more profitable! Crafting should be used to make stuff you (and your group) actually need.

 

The problem with the current version has always been that you rarely can craft stuff when really you need it. Partly, because you don't have the skill level, but mostly, because you can't find enough parts to craft that coveted gun.

 

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

Were loot drops changed, I'm not finding info that? Since like he even brought up in the video you linked, using the A20 loot drops at least, there's literally no situation where I would *ever* bother crafting a gun in A21, I would just run quests to get it from the boss loot chest or the quest reward literally a thousand times faster than trying to find hundreds of magazines to unlock a high quality, high tier craftable.

The problem is not in the game, the problem is in how "power-levelers" play. You seem to be in this category, and whatever mechanics is there, it'll never be efficient enough for you. My suggestion is to try and play in a more relaxed and natural way. Traders and quests are already considered OP by most players and I think TFP knows that and they're nerfing both the trader sale-lists and the job rewards.

 

1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

Not to mention  it still being completely pointless to waste resources crafting if you still can't craft T6

I think you meant Q6? ... Well, the devs said they'll be considering this, but in any case, as I already argued before with someone else on this, it's absolutely NOT a waste of time. The reason is that the game has progression, and when you're still in that phase of the game where you need <Q6 stuff, then you definitively need q1->q5 stuff!

 

People think that unless you can have something be great all the time, then it's worthless... I disagree. The same goes for Pack Mule after you find all Triple Pockets. The same goes for Well Insulated after you find all the best protecting clothing. Same goes for Greasy Monkey, after you've crafted all the vehicles you need (or you have enough money to buy them all from traders).

 

As you can see, there's a counter-point for each one of your complaints.

 

I'm not saying they shouldn't consider balancing the new system to be more MP-friendly, I'm sure they're already doing that.

I'm saying that change is always unwelcome when people are stuck in their ways, no matter what. Embrace change! 

[meganoth]

12 hours ago, MikeSixx said:

I really love return to sandom recipies. Fist step (back) to right direction in years. 

But "Interactive Environmental Hazards" 
that filed concept in context of this game. Year is is that lazy and hacky "puzzle" in solo computer game but did you forgot this is VOXEL game. 
1st thing I would do is destroy the broken pipe block, not expecting it to put out the fire but just to my suspicion that have no effect on the now completely illogical and detached flame even on the adjacent block.  

Then I would just go through the wall or climb up the wall with frames or ladders and break in from upper floor window.  

Yes, environmental hazard is great idea, it just in not for the concept of this game. A good "environmental hazard" concept is hostile biomes. As it is direction the game is already going. Like having to discover and craft cold water gear to survive on snow biome. Or to lesser degree desert biome having water much more rare in it. Burned biome could require gas mask and filters that wear out. So untill you are able to craft the gear you could not access those biomes. That would give more to play for in this game. 
Then is the radiation biome (and I do not mean destroyed bome) that been discussed for years and radiation gear has even been added to game for it. 

This would be much more interesting goal than perks and new gear as that would give the player more to play for. And certain items and matrial could be more abundant in certain biomes. That would add like more depth to the game. Also that the enemy levels would not jsut magically scale up at same time  as your character gets better that makes it pointless to imrpve your charter as you are just treading water. every time you make you character little stronger the opposition just gets just as much stringer. 
Just like now the destroyed area is the high lever area in the game, the level of opponent could be by region, so player would themselves get to choose when to upp the challenge (and with it  the rewards) by moving to higher level biome. This would also encourage players to travel more, not just camp same 1-3 cities for loot respawns. 

 

 

I agree. The radiation zone is an untapped potential. And without that auto-leveling there would have been more depth to the game. In RPGs I hate auto-leveling. In a game like 7D2D it is ... acceptable and even has some advantages too.

 

Some things like the tower defense part are much easier to get right when there is auto-leveling: You don't need to build your horde-base somewhere else again just to get a more difficult horde. 

 

The difficulty by region idea has another problem with current 7D2D afaik: To have enough different enemy power levels you would need many more biomes, each representing a different danger level. Now because of the voxel nature of the game the graphics library and maybe graphics card texture space enforce limits to how many biomes are possible. Even the biomes available before A17 would not have been enough and they had to be reduced already for technical reasons.  The game can not simply go back anymore even if they wanted. So no more biomes unless miracles happen.

 

Lastly, as much as I like the idea, I recognize that the chance it will be implemented in 7D2D is zero by now. Not low, not very low, literally zero. I can not think of ANY realistic szenario in which TFP would now restart development and add another 2 alphas just to throw out something that has been driving all manner of progression in the game forever(?). TFP has said we are on the last leg of development, the changes will get smaller and smaller while the big last change gets developed, bandits.