Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Gamida]

3 hours ago, Roland said:

Everyone should. I’ve never claimed to speak for everyone like some around here do…

 

Hey you, stop using the ellipsis. That's my thing...

[BFT2020]

8 minutes ago, POCKET951 said:

Intelligence is going to be pretty sad if the only value perks are the trader ones. I hope whatever happens to advanced engineering/grease monkey/physician makes them appealing or worth considering/thinking.

 

Are you forgetting Electrocutioner and Turrets?  Or do you consider those to be of no value?

[POCKET951]

14 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

 

Are you forgetting Electrocutioner and Turrets?  Or do you consider those to be of no value?

I consider them very low value/not worth getting.. I usually fill them out when I am getting towards level 250+ and have nothing else to spend on

the stun baton might be good now with the tech junkies books/electrocutioner?? idk

If robotic turrets didn't set off demolishers I would consider turrets alot more.

Edited July 27, 2022 by POCKET951 (see edit history)

[POCKET951]

29 minutes ago, Roland said:

 He is totally aware of the holes left by moving crafting over to magazines. We will have to wait and see how he decides to fill them.

If you say stuff like this you might arouse @SnowDog1942 from his sleep. tread carefully Roland

[Jost Amman]

57 minutes ago, POCKET951 said:

If you say stuff like this you might arouse @SnowDog1942 from his sleep. tread carefully Roland

The only solution is to not only remove empty jars, but also remove snowballs from the game...  

Edited July 27, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

16 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

The only solution is to not only remove empty jars, but also remove snowballs from the game...  

 

If snowballs ever get removed it's no big loss since we can throw rocks at our friends lol...

 

Although, I would fully support poop being re added to the game to fling at our friends.  Maybe give it the sticky property like c4....😅

 

Hopefully people won't expect to turn poop into murky water > boiled water, etc. for realism sake...😅

Edited July 27, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

24 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

That is two things:

 

1. Garbage. Digging zombies was removed because the devs and others didn't want other players to be able to hide when they saw fit and avoid bloodmoons they weren't prepared for* - a change that certain people not only wanted, but didn't want people like me to be able to toggle on or off/ undo (without absurd suggestions like play without any bloodmoons ever or tolerate the change - which is logically fallacious, or the current bizarre mechanic of die and respawn in a bunker where you won't be targeted unless you present yourself to the zombies again.) That is not appeasing everyone, that is necessarily appeasing one party.

Wait?  The devs removed digging to prevent players from hiding underground?   🤔 Man those devs are devious.

 

You better watch out, they are clearly out to get you.

[FranticDan]

35 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

If snowballs ever get removed it's no big loss since we can throw rocks at our friends lol...

 

Although, I would fully support poop being re added to the game to fling at our friends.  Maybe give it the sticky property like c4....😅

 

Hopefully people won't expect to turn poop into murky water > boiled water, etc. for realism sake...😅

Realism: turning poop into murky water
Also realism: inability to melt snow for murky water

[beerfly]

48 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

If snowballs ever get removed it's no big loss since we can throw rocks at our friends lol...

Had this game in A17 (sorry) I think, when we were a bit bored and made some small walls in the show biome, of course a snowball fight happened. 

It was a pure, genuine fun ingame that made some great moments. 

 

Just for how it worked on us, and we do it irl often, being in our 30s then, was awesome. 

 

P.S. Wait, did DaVega is near you, rocks ? Cmon man. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by beerfly (see edit history)

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

42 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Wait?  The devs removed digging to prevent players from hiding underground?   🤔 Man those devs are devious.

 

You better watch out, they are clearly out to get you.

 

Yes, and from their mouths if I recall correctly, or someone else quoting them. Their reasoning is they don't want players to be safe.

 

Your sarcasm would be better spent elsewhere, or convert that into time spent reading and you might save yourself the embarrassment of a poorly placed bad attitude.

Edited July 27, 2022 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[Fanatical_Meat]

2 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

That is two things:

 

1. Garbage. Digging zombies was removed because the devs and others didn't want other players to be able to hide when they saw fit and avoid bloodmoons they weren't prepared for* - a change that certain people not only wanted, but didn't want people like me to be able to toggle on or off/ undo (without absurd suggestions like play without any bloodmoons ever or tolerate the change - which is logically fallacious, or the current bizarre mechanic of die and respawn in a bunker where you won't be targeted unless you present yourself to the zombies again.) That is not appeasing everyone, that is necessarily appeasing one party.

 

* I wish to emphasise this, because a game that involves more player freedom to have their playstyle facilitated with toggles, or other options enabling a truly customisable and unique experience, is objectively better than one which limits the player to a certain preset.

 

And yes, there are people vocal on these forums in favour of less options, where I am a strong advocate of having less restriction and more freedoms (without having to resort to mods, which are inherently useless in regard to hard coded unchangeable aspects of the game.)

 

2. A pitiful excuse of game design. Certain aspects of the game could have been kept and reworked with some of the simple suggestions from the playerbase, like Guppy for instance.

 

Instead, however, things just get removed, using snow for water, and filling jars, and yet still other systems (LBD) replaced with repetitious magazine collection for example, which is an atrocious and absurd concept to me, and is; as I maintain, lazy gating in order to extend play time.

 

Sometimes it's the little things in survival games, using flower pots, boots, plastic or glass bottles, or other things to gather and store water, that adds the satisfaction of manually collecting and storing your own. The whole dew collection; as previously mentioned, just makes things eventually passive like farming anyway, and so getting water will become an eventual triviality. So much opportunity and yet so little taken.

 

So many other good aspects are gone, too - the zombie smell system, manually increasing skills by enacting them, and so much more, and what this game ends up as I fear will appear a rushed mess with many of the things we recognised as 7D gone by the by.

 

I could go on - the ability to rest on sofas, use them as spawn points, have more interactive appliances, more vehicles, and so on and so on and so on. As I'm writing this, however; and as sad as it is, I realise the futility, and so will end it here and await the dislikes and the apologists 😏👍🏻

Water is already trivial to farm then boil. Do you really have that much trouble with water as is?

1 hour ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

Yes, and from their mouths if I recall correctly, or someone else quoting them. Their reasoning is they don't want players to be safe.

 

Your sarcasm would be better spent elsewhere, or convert that into time spent reading and you might save yourself the embarrassment of a poorly placed bad attitude.

It’s right in the title of the game.

7 Days to *Die*

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

Yes, and from their mouths if I recall correctly, or someone else quoting them. Their reasoning is they don't want players to be safe.

 

Your sarcasm would be better spent elsewhere, or convert that into time spent reading and you might save yourself the embarrassment of a poorly placed bad attitude.

I am having a blast actually 😀

 

I can also multi-task.  While being sarcastic, I was also able to whip up a small modlet for another player whose save file got corrupted so he can quickly advanced back to the previous trader tier list  😁

 

Sarcasm is not my only skillset

Edited July 28, 2022 by BFT2020 (see edit history)

[maxousara]

For me its impossible the fun pimps delete the digging. Its a big part of the game including mining, treasure and the concept of 7 days to die is to be in an completely descrutible world like minecraft.

[Beelzebubs Ghost]

17 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

I am having a blast actually 😀

 

I can also multi-task.  While being sarcastic, I was also able to whip up a small modlet for another player whose save file got corrupted so he can quickly advanced back to the previous trader tier list  😁

 

Sarcasm is not my only skillset

 

Except you didn't address me calling you out. And now this conversation is done.

 

No time for time wasters or trolls 👍🏻

 

6 minutes ago, maxousara said:

For me its impossible the fun pimps delete the digging. Its a big part of the game including mining, treasure and the concept of 7 days to die is to be in an completely descrutible world like minecraft.

 

I didn't mean player digging, I was referring to zombie digging.

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Beelzebubs Ghost (see edit history)

[maxousara]

17 minutes ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

Except you didn't address me calling you out. And now this conversation is done.

 

No time for time wasters or trolls 👍🏻

 

 

I didn't mean player digging, I was referring to zombie digging.

 

Why the fun pimps delete zombie digging if they try to kill the players that make no sense.

[Blake_]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Only when @unholyjoe himself is in the water...

 

In seriousness though, the water voxel overhaul has a narrow and specific scope. Performance, works with terrain and submerged blocks and decorations, doesn't result in holes or Moses partitions, and looks good.

 

Yeah, but it has HUGE potential for gameplay : underwater zombie fish, sunken POI (that would require a special water-breathing equipment), or floating POI, boats (both wooden and motorized maybe?), underwater/ water quests, underwater resources/loot, underwater player animations, etc etc.

 

Currently, there is none of that, but I'm a bit hopeful IF the new water is as good as you paint it.

[NukemDed]

15 hours ago, unholyjoe said:

also... water is still WIP and no there are no fish, no large sea monsters or crocodiles.

 

small sea monsters confirmed 🙂

[Neminsis]

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

What would be the stack size of boiled water and teas then? 1 or 10 like A20?

I think that all the stack sizes for drinks are already fine. I don't think that I've ever even had to use more than 3 drinks a day and it only got that high because of occasionally needing to use painkillers etc. I assume that this is average considering where the production cap on the dew collectors has been set.

The stack sizes for jars and murky water are both 125 presently. Glue and duct tape are both 500. A stack of exploding crossbow bolts is 75. You can go through 4 stacks of crossbow bolts on a horde night. That's going to require 250 glue.  In 7 days time 6 dew collectors will produce 302 water, leaving you 50 for food and drink. One dew collector will produce 50 in that time. Which means that you'd need a minimum of 3 in order to produce a single stack of exploding bolts per week with a little left over for repair kits.

These are really tight margins when you can't even be sure that you can build 6 of them. On a large map you can get all 5 traders so you could get 5 filters as quest rewards guaranteed, but we know this isn't true for the smaller maps, that RNG is a fickle @%$#, and by the time you've mapped out that many traders it's pretty much time to restart.
 

12 hours ago, meganoth said:

Water sources like sewers are able to keep you hydrated

 

12 hours ago, meganoth said:

I was talking about the preferences of my co-players and that they would not simply drink murky water unless that were by far the best option.

Take those statements together and replace "best" for "only" option and you quickly realize that people won't be using those sources beyond emergency situations which reduces their value to nil after the first week since they're very rarely found near useful pois and there's still the risk of dysentery. 

 

 

 

[Neminsis]

12 hours ago, Roland said:

Everyone should. I’ve never claimed to speak for everyone like some around here do…

I do appreciate that greatly, but we're also talking in an atmosphere where some will get super defensive when any criticisms are brought up about the game, and those with the obvious bias of "any change is good change" I mean in the first 24 hours after the announcement I watched two heavily invested modders have their concerns dismissed out of hand because 'they were just mad that it caused more work for them' and then when I try to continue the conversation it gets moved into an out of the way corner so as not to disturb the regular folk. Don't get me wrong, I've found very good conversation here and I feel like my thoughts have more value in that a place was made for the discussion, but it is a tacit admission of the sourness of the main thread. 

So, I guess that's me venting and also saying thanks.

12 hours ago, meganoth said:

But it happens that the creator of an idea is often too "close" to it to see the drawbacks. 

And the same is true for any developer. This is the whole point of user feedback. 

[Roland]

9 minutes ago, Neminsis said:

I do appreciate that greatly, but we're also talking in an atmosphere where some will get super defensive when any criticisms are brought up about the game, and those with the obvious bias of "any change is good change" I mean in the first 24 hours after the announcement I watched two heavily invested modders have their concerns dismissed out of hand because 'they were just mad that it caused more work for them' and then when I try to continue the conversation it gets moved into an out of the way corner so as not to disturb the regular folk. Don't get me wrong, I've found very good conversation here and I feel like my thoughts have more value in that a place was made for the discussion, but it is a tacit admission of the sourness of the main thread. 

So, I guess that's me venting and also saying thanks.

 

If it makes you feel any better, any time long discussions start forming that do not directly involve developers, they get moved out of the dev diary. There were 125 posts moved-- not just your conversation and not because anything is sour. Criticisms are still posted in the dev diary along with expressions of support. Only when long conversations evolve do those things get moved. When things get all hot topic questions get lost in the mix and normal people stop reading after two pages of arguing. 

 

Staff read this thread too.

[Neminsis]

11 hours ago, Roland said:

That's where it is right now and there may be more minor changes by time you get your hands on it but it definitely isn't going to be reversed before the larger population gets it and plays it. The removal of empty jars has literally been years in the works and simply delayed time and time again. That is not likely to change again.

I didn't honestly expect anything to be reversed, at least not until after the testing phase but I wanted to get my thoughts in while they were still fresh, and no, I didn't expect TFP to even listen to what I have to say. I expect that some of it might trickle upward at some point though, especially if it spreads to the larger community. I know that they're going to be paying more attention to telemetry, but I also know that telemetry isn't going to catch the edge cases. They're going to focus on the bog stock average as being the area of greatest appeal and that makes perfect sense.

That said, of course limiting stack size on jars wouldn't solve the problem alone. I'm considering it in conjunction with the changes that are already slated, and perhaps making jars uncraftable as wel,l to give them an actual value. More as a supplementary to the new system rather than a replacement for it. 

Hydration really isn't the issue as much as it is glue, and glue in large enough quantities to handle all of the potential crafting needs. 

[Roland]

3 minutes ago, Neminsis said:

Hydration really isn't the issue as much as it is glue, and glue in large enough quantities to handle all of the potential crafting needs

 

And I think your play testing feedback on glue production will be important once you get your hands on it. That could lead to changes like a more efficient version being added higher up in the Forge Ahead ladder or perhaps a mod to add to it that allows for a fourth or fifth slot for water if it turns out the existing collectors just can't support reasonable glue production.

[Neminsis]

16 minutes ago, Roland said:

If it makes you feel any better, any time long discussions start forming that do not directly involve developers, they get moved out of the dev diary.

No, what makes me feel better is that the effort is made to allow the conversation in the first place. 

[Jost Amman]

7 hours ago, Laz Man said:

If snowballs ever get removed it's no big loss since we can throw rocks at our friends lol...

Although, I would fully support poop being re added to the game to fling at our friends.  Maybe give it the sticky property like c4....😅

Hopefully people won't expect to turn poop into murky water > boiled water, etc. for realism sake...😅

Ehrm... fortunately, you're a gentleman, so my joke just completely passed over your head... now I feel embarrassed.

But for the sake of clarity, I'll explain.

 

POCKET951 replied to Roland like this:

9 hours ago, POCKET951 said:

9 hours ago, Roland said:

He is totally aware of the holes left by moving crafting over to magazines. We will have to wait and see how he decides to fill them.

If you say stuff like this you might arouse @SnowDog1942 from his sleep. tread carefully Roland

So, the only way to avoid @SnowDog1942 to become "aroused", is to remove the "snow balls" from the snow dog. (ok, ok, it's a terrible joke I admit...) 

[Neminsis]

1 minute ago, Roland said:

And I think your play testing feedback on glue production will be important once you get your hands on it. That could lead to changes like a more efficient version being added higher up in the Forge Ahead ladder or perhaps a mod to add to it that allows for a fourth or fifth slot for water if it turns out the existing collectors just can't support reasonable glue production.

Now I really like those ideas.

My worry again though is that telemetry isn't going to pick up the edge cases. I mean, what percentage of the user base is even going to want that high of production? As it is you can survive just off looting and the trader for that target 60 hours. You can get an entire horde base worth of concrete blocks in a single air drop. For all the other production stations you can get by comfortably with just one of each and only use them rarely. From what I know of people, they're going to gravitate towards doing the bare minimum while a sparse few will actually attempt to scale things up and go past that first 60 hours.