Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[bachgaman]

6 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Yep, so there will be no chance to increase this into 128 for example.

Right. It would be more correct to make it possible to enter any value manually. But I have nothing against limits beyond frankly redundant values. So, how does such a limitation invalidate my claim that any conceivable setting can be added, regardless of its impact on performance, given the warning that those setting might cause lag? Also, do you seriously think that performance issues might surprise a player of this game?

[Nevergrey]

I reckon that 64 zeds spawning at once would already make the solo game unplayable because of performance issues. Did anyone here (aside from the developers) ever had all 64 Zombies in a solo game? What happened? Playing with 1 FPS? 😉 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Nevergrey (see edit history)

[Matt115]

9 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

Right. It would be more correct to make it possible to enter any value manually. But I have nothing against limits beyond frankly redundant values. So, how does such a limitation invalidate my claim that any conceivable setting can be added, regardless of its impact on performance, given the warning that those setting might cause lag? Also, do you seriously think that performance issues might surprise a player of this game?

Yes , people here have ideas like change zombie into parasite or mutant worms. i remember when i was looking for solution how fix a problem with stalker if good remember and one guy somehow by changing thing broke something in his computer ( i don't have good memory and i'm not IT guy ) so yeah people can do stupid things and then blame Devs. Sometime ago i guy was complaing that he can't play by 100 players. He didn't know it was private server made by outside company. 

So i'm maybe too hm... negative but i know that people can do so stupid thing that you can't expect

[Matt115]

25 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

"zombies with weapons" is just a phrase faatal used to mean that initially bandits will path and behave very similarly to the zombies except they will have weapons. Eventually they will have more sophisticated actions but the starting point will be pretty basic. He was not saying that they would be zombies and so not attack other zombies. Just as current zombies and hostile animals can and do attack each other, we can expect that zombies and bandits will attack each other.

 

We do not know yet exactly how ambitious the developers will get with bandit behaviors, tactics, goals, and coordination. All we know right now is where faatal shared with us that they will start out at.

 

Modders have already gotten pretty ambitious with the bandits that we already had from earlier versions so I am confident that at whatever point TFP decides to stop and say "good enough" where bandits are concerned, the community will be sure to take it farther. That is exactly the allure of mods-- that you can play a game that is beyond the scope of what the developers chose the default game to be.

 

So there is no reason to worry about bandits simply being zombies with guns forever and amen. The devs are going to start with that and then expand to a certain point and then others will certainly expand even more.

Well i hope they behaviour will pretty simple - i think nobody want tnt  spaming in destructible world. Well if moders what more advance AI for them - do you want you want. But it would be better if they AI will be just on typical medicore FPS level

[Nevergrey]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Well i hope they behaviour will pretty simple - i think nobody want tnt  spaming in destructible world. Well if moders what more advance AI for them - do you want you want. But it would be better if they AI will be just on typical medicore FPS level

Why not just making the AI of the bandits adjustable? Mediocre FPS level for default players, F.E.A.R.-AI for masochists. 😈

 

[Matt115]

2 minutes ago, Nevergrey said:

Why not just making the AI of the bandits adjustable? Mediocre FPS level for default players, F.E.A.R.-AI for masochists. 😈

 

You are new here so i'm will try to explain my point of view. People as enemy  in zombie games are just annoing (with few example but i will back to this topic later). 

1. Do ever played in warhammer total war? One time i was plaing a battle lose 90% of man near city  and in next turn my ally show up a take capitol just for free.

Why i do say about that? someone sugget that bandits should loot you base. this is idea bad as hell. I too much tired to explain why this idea is so bad and i  have bad mood.

2. Dying light and dead rising is funny game until people show up - too accuracy ( and knowback in dead rising ) or few "stupid" location design when you just have to camp or spame granade in DL1. okay normaly in Dl1 bandits are pretty easy just bum head shot or special attack with melee weapon-- > they are just boring flies but you can easy deal with them. But in DL2 they change bandits into main enemy ( yes zombies are more popular but weak as hell and no volatiles and street + small number of special zombie on street). So now i here this same quots , see another "call backup" guy i want to turn off game and just go to sleep. Why? let say you stab zombie 15 times - well he is zombie so he can lose leg hand without problem but on 9 lvl bandits can survival burned alive and granades.  Yes 7dtd is diffrent game but there is a risk that bandits will bullet sponges.

3. More subjective that objective - if i want to fight with humans i will turn on bannerlord or cod.  But sometimes i'm tired about people so i want to don't think about that and just play in something to relax. So? What now ? - Cod Vanguard is bad, cold war have so small number of zombie variants that i have aversion. Well NZA are fun game but... you play one time and you don't have nothing to do - L4D2 is much better about that because  well you can radomly meet tank, weapons are in diffrent places, special zombie spawn radomly etc. but bots in this game... idk one time can do something and i fell relaxed. But next day  you can have 100 hp good guns etc and radomly die because smoker grab you and your bots will just watch how you are dying doing nothing. So - i don't want to deal with op snipers, think how to make  a base to don't worry that  random bandit with tnt will blow up it ( one time screamer respawn  in dark place under a balcony it was A16 or A17.

 

So yeah i don't want to getting tired with bandits. i just want to fight with zombies. So bandits can be fun for me when they will be rare and pretty simple not a ex special forces everywhere

[bachgaman]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Yes , people here have ideas like change zombie into parasite or mutant worms.

 

This is new content, I'm talking about working with what we have, not adding new models/mechanics/textures

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

i remember when i was looking for solution how fix a problem with stalker if good remember and one guy somehow by changing thing broke something in his computer ( i don't have good memory and i'm not IT guy ) so yeah people can do stupid things and then blame Devs

Sounds like a cool story, I can't imagine what you need to do with the game to permanently damage your PC

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Sometime ago i guy was complaing that he can't play by 100 players. He didn't know it was private server made by outside company. 

So i'm maybe too hm... negative but i know that people can do so stupid thing that you can't expect

This does not justify the lack of settings. And not associated with them. Some person join to a custom server with extraordinary settings and have some problems. And what? Is it time to remove the multiplayer? According to your logic, this should be done to avoid such complaints

 

If your PC doesn't allow you to comfortably play on ultra settings, you just don't turn them on instead of turning them on and complaining about low fps, right?

[Adam the Waster]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

Modders have already gotten pretty ambitious with the bandits that we already had from earlier versions so I am confident that at whatever point TFP decides to stop and say "good enough" where bandits are concerned, the community will be sure to take it farther. That is exactly the allure of mods-- that you can play a game that is beyond the scope of what the developers chose the default game to be.

 

So there is no reason to worry about bandits simply being zombies with guns forever and amen. The devs are going to start with that and then expand to a certain point and then others will certainly expand even more.

that kinda has me a bit worried, i hope that the TFP will do more then that. 

Sense they want to go too console thats kind of a crappy attitude, Its one thing as modders too make/make/add stuff. hell some things modders do is better then the developers (Very few but the ones who do are well know for their craft)

if they just kind of go. "ehh lets make them have zombie ai and call it a day" then thats not good

i know we may have like 3 or more alphas too go but still a thing too think about for them. 

[bachgaman]

5 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

that kinda has me a bit worried, i hope that the TFP will do more then that. 

Sense they want to go too console thats kind of a crappy attitude, Its one thing as modders too make/make/add stuff. hell some things modders do is better then the developers (Very few but the ones who do are well know for their craft)

if they just kind of go. "ehh lets make them have zombie ai and call it a day" then thats not good

i know we may have like 3 or more alphas too go but still a thing too think about for them. 

in my opinion, it would be better if they polished everything that is in the game now instead of developing bandits, drones and other content that does not make this game more replayable. Instead of this cumbersome wow content, dozens and hundreds of items, recipes, world settings, perks, etc. could be added.

[Adam the Waster]

On 3/25/2022 at 5:40 AM, canadianbluebeer said:

Will the zombies be hostile to the bandits?

 

(if not, then I'm gonna have to hunt up some nukes...)

😛

 

Everybody gangster still the zombies start shooting 

like that idea madmole talked about long ago... wonder if they will go through with that?

Just now, bachgaman said:

in my opinion, it would be better if they polished everything that is in the game now instead of developing bandits, drones and other content that does not make this game more replayable. Instead of this cumbersome wow content, dozens and hundreds of items, recipes, world settings, perks, etc. could be added.

i what think/hope they are doing is.
 

• add all the stuff they want added and slowly add improvements to make the game playable
• Phase out all the stuff they don't want RIP Iron block... i still love you
• Once the last alpha or 2. they are going to go hard on Polishing everything

 

I do agree with some of the stuff like world setting but this is not the place too talk about it lol, i made a whole google doc about world settings

[bdubyah]

18 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

in my opinion, it would be better if they polished everything that is in the game now instead of developing bandits, drones and other content that does not make this game more replayable. Instead of this cumbersome wow content, dozens and hundreds of items, recipes, world settings, perks, etc. could be added.

Bandits were a part of the kickstarter goals if I remember right. So they kind of have to add them. Would kinda suck for TFP to call the game done and roll out gold, only to be sued immediately for breaking their KS goals. 

[EggsAisle]

31 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

in my opinion, it would be better if they polished everything that is in the game now instead of developing bandits, drones and other content that does not make this game more replayable. Instead of this cumbersome wow content, dozens and hundreds of items, recipes, world settings, perks, etc. could be added.

 

I agreed with you about wanting more polish, and then you started talking about adding dozens or hundreds of things, which is... not polish. It's the opposite of polish. It's adding lots and lots of new rough content. So maybe I agree with you. Or maybe not. Hard to tell. 

 

Perks in this game are weird. TFP have tried a bunch of different systems, each of them janky in its own special way. Last time I heard about any plans MM was talking about separating crafting into its own skill system, which sounds like a good idea to me, but who knows where they'll go with it. 

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Adam the Waster said:

if they just kind of go. "ehh lets make them have zombie ai and call it a day" then thats not good

 

Please go back and read what I wrote again. I didn't say that in any way, shape, or form. I don't know how far TFP is going to go with bandits but I do know that they are not going to stop at simply "ehh lets make them have zombie AI and call it a day". The entire point of my post was that that was the starting point. STARTING POINT.

 

You took everything I said, flushed it, and decided that what I was saying is that TFP may just make that the ending point.

 

My point about modders was that they will likely add even more to whatever TFP decides to do.

 

Just in case there is just too much tldr in this post as well let me finish with this:

 

TFP will not simply give bandits zombie AI and call it good enough. They will start with zombie AI and make them more sophisticated from there.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, bachgaman said:

in my opinion, it would be better if they polished everything that is in the game now instead of developing bandits, drones and other content that does not make this game more replayable. Instead of this cumbersome wow content, dozens and hundreds of items, recipes, world settings, perks, etc. could be added.

 

They are not going to abandon their roadmap just because some people want them to stop with what they have and increase the variety of existing things. They have just a few new features they want to include and then they will look at additional options, settings, items, recipes, etc that they desire. It never has been a choice of bandits or more existing stuff. We can have it all.

[bachgaman]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

They are not going to abandon their roadmap just because some people want them to stop with what they have and increase the variety of existing things. They have just a few new features they want to include and then they will look at additional options, settings, items, recipes, etc that they desire. It never has been a choice of bandits or more existing stuff. We can have it all.

Why abandon? Just postpone for another 7 years

[Crater Creator]

6 hours ago, Demonoid74 said:

They will be just like zombies with weapons...except what makes them special is they will actively and constantly cuss you out in the most vile language you ever heard!
Things about your mother etc etc....

 

That'd be hilarious.

 

TFP: Here are your bandits!

TFP: *replaces zombie grunts with Trader Rekt voice lines*

TFP: *makes no other changes*

[meganoth]

14 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Well i hope they behaviour will pretty simple - i think nobody want tnt  spaming in destructible world. Well if moders what more advance AI for them - do you want you want. But it would be better if they AI will be just on typical medicore FPS level

 

Even the most intelligent bandit can NOT spam sticks of TNT if he only has one stick of TNT.

 

Just because 20 years ago a game messed up their enemy AI and made them able to headshot players from any distance that urban legend is brought up as if it was inevitable. "intelligent" bandit does not mean they will automatically be invincible. Einstein with an AK probably would still have been a push-over. 😉

 

Bandits can be balanced whatever their AI abilities are. Even if they get the ability to loot player storage chests there are hundreds of possibilities to balance that and hundreds of possibilities for the player to make his storage chests safe.

 

[Roland]

36 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Even if they get the ability to loot player storage chests there are hundreds of possibilities to balance that and hundreds of possibilities for the player to make his storage chests safe.

 

Our future debates will almost certainly revolve around which of those hundreds of possibilities are cheesy and which are legit...

[meganoth]

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Our future debates will almost certainly revolve around which of those hundreds of possibilities are cheesy and which are legit...

 

and whether the developers should devote time to fixing them or not. Spawning further comments by people that the game is x years in development and should be finished ASAP. Cue in others protesting that they want the game to stay in alpha for all eternity.

 

And somewhere in there Matt115 will be telling us about some game that did it differently.

 

😁

 

[Nevergrey]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Even the most intelligent bandit can NOT spam sticks of TNT if he only has one stick of TNT.

 

Just because 20 years ago a game messed up their enemy AI and made them able to headshot players from any distance that urban legend is brought up as if it was inevitable. "intelligent" bandit does not mean they will automatically be invincible. Einstein with an AK probably would still have been a push-over. 😉

 

Bandits can be balanced whatever their AI abilities are. Even if they get the ability to loot player storage chests there are hundreds of possibilities to balance that and hundreds of possibilities for the player to make his storage chests safe.

 

Zombie AI is already not bad in comparison to the AI in DayZ. DayZ Zombies are dangerous, because they are very fast.  And the melee combat system of DayZ  is a disaster.  And DayZ Zombies can chase you forever. If they can track you. I saw Zombies running dozens of times around a fence, then jumping over the fence - while about one virtual metre away there was an wide open gate. You can kill DayZ Zombies easily while they lurk near an open window. They just don't react when you hit them. I never saw such AI flaws in 7DtD (at least not in A20, I didn't play the earlier Alpha versions). 

 

There seem to be even complaints that the Alpha 20 AI is too good. 😉

 

But hopefully you don't dumb the Zombie AI down. So far it is  ok.  

Edited March 28, 2022 by Nevergrey
Spelling (see edit history)

[Nevergrey]

11 hours ago, Crater Creator said:

 

That'd be hilarious.

 

TFP: Here are your bandits!

TFP: *replaces zombie grunts with Trader Rekt voice lines*

TFP: *makes no other changes*

Well ... you normally don't cuss quietly. Noise attracts Zombies. So things could go wrong for the bandits, not for the player. 🤭

[meilodasreh]

On 3/26/2022 at 2:19 PM, Matt115 said:

Will bandits droping loot after kiling them? If yes , then chances will be bigger to find loot that find loot kiling zombie? 

I would even like to see every single bandit completely lootable, with an inventory just like the player's...or at least their clothing/armor + weapons.

 

Never really liked the idea of this "POOF-KA-CHING: glary lootbag appearing from another dimension" thingy.

Always seemed like a placeholder for me (which is okay, cause it's an alpha version)

 

If you ask me, with introduction of bandits, Zeds shouldn't drop anything anymore,

and instead I want to be able to take all stuff that bandits carry/wear. 

 

...you know...they just wouldn't need it anymore then😏

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

Bandit shoots you with mp5.  Loot on bandit is a candlestick.  Yeh that's "fun".

 

...and yeh, the alternative IS actual fun.  Sense of accomplishment for earning the gun, still needing to get ammo, noise level of the battle attracting a large horde...

[bdubyah]

I could see them dropping their weapon if the only ammo you get from it is what's in the mag. The problem is right now you find too much ammo everywhere. Clean out a dozen piles of garbage and you have enough ammo for the day. It's crazy. It would be too OP for them to drop guns with how much ammo is around currently. Ammo needs to be one of those things you can only find decent quantities of from high end POIs and enemies. The rest would need to be crafted. If you are smart and use melee in your day to day tasks and save guns for only when needed, ammo is way too easy.

 

I do agree they need some unique loot though, even if they don't drop their weapons. Finding 5 door knobs on them would be the worst. (looking at you, zpack...)

[meilodasreh]

Getting too many weapons too early from looting bandits wouldn't be such a problem, or could be avoided by 

-making weapons degrading/break faster

-reverting to "weapon parts needed to repair a weapon of that type" (which was the case once iirc)

So you would have to scrap a lot of guns to keep your best one in good shape...feels logic to me.

-and of course early on they may/should be a challenge to deal with, so you wouldn't be able to just go out there and kill them...I mean...they have a gun, and you have...a stick. So you would have to consider if you take the chance or better avoid him.

 

Ammo balance is always a tricky one, so I would go with the idea that at least the early "low level" bandits only have half broken guns with just the ammo inside the mag.

Later/higher tier bandits could have better guns in better shape and more ammo with them...again sounds logic, doesn't it?

Edited March 28, 2022 by meilodasreh (see edit history)