Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Telly G]

Most consumables in the game are basically magic potions. This isn't project zomboid. 

 

The Duke of Navesgane has a chaingun arm like a cowboy killing floor patriarch.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Tellis Argonis (see edit history)

[meganoth]

16 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

cod "sturmsomething" and sniper elite elite zombie  shows up 

Me: meh,  Krasny soldat in cod and fire demon are better

 

Me: I don't care as I don't know any of them.

[Telly G]

1 minute ago, meganoth said:

 

Me: I don't care as I don't know any of them.

the (sniper elite) Zombie Army games have stages that feature zombies armed with guns that know how to use them. The snipers leap around from perch to perch making them difficult to pin down, there's heavy gunners that take multiple headshots to kill, so on. 

[meganoth]

17 minutes ago, Nevergrey said:

What do you think about the feature that Bandits could get invisible? Not completely invisible, more like the Predator's cloak effect when being in stealth mode.

 

I don't think this is right for 7D2D (which is an RPG!). Because it makes detecting bandits depend on player ability to notice miniscule changes on the screen, on the monitor screen you are using and its resolution. In an RPG your perks should define your abilities as much as possible.

 

And because it is not neccessary. As we know bandits would be unreasonably good if they had unlimited detection range and shooting accuracy and damage. And they would be pushovers if their range, damage and accuracy were 0. Somewhere inbetween these extremes there must be a sweetspot where they are a manageable danger.

Or in other words, invisibility can be traded 1:1 with detection range, i.e. if their detection range is higher than the players then it is as if they were invisible until they start shooting. It just means they will start shooting from farther than if they also were invisible. Or in Pois that they are already behind cover because they sensed you before you see them

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Nevergrey]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

In an RPG your perks should define your abilities as much as possible.

 

 

 

 

 

And one of this perks could be that you detect bandits better. You start with nearly invisible bandits on the map. And while you improve your ability to detect them (for example with special eyeglasses that you can craft),  your ability to see them increases. This would be fit in an RPG. 

[meganoth]

Just now, Nevergrey said:

And one of this perks could be that you detect bandits better. You start with nearly invisible bandits on the map. And while you improve your ability to detect them (for example with special eyeglasses that you can craft),  your ability to see them increases. This would be fit in an RPG. 

And still people with eagle eyes or the right monitor setup would have tremendeous advantages to see them or not. While basically cover does the same thing (and bandits taking cover is something TFP is implementing right now according to Faatal)

 

What would be the reason for invisibility, by the way? Are you assuming some future tech the bandits use, which would be contrary to the backstory. Or is it just a crutch to signify a bandit is in stealth?

In case it is the latter: I don't see the neccessity yet for bandits to have stealth, especially if it needs a crutch like this. Maybe if bandits are still pushovers even after all balancing and taking cover, then TFP should think about such an obviously gamey alternative.

 

 

[Matt115]

34 minutes ago, Tellis Argonis said:

Most consumables in the game are basically magic potions. This isn't project zomboid. 

 

The Duke of Navesgane has a chaingun arm like a cowboy killing floor patriarch.

Yes this is not project zomboid. But it better to keep this similiar to l4d2/contagion/ no more rooms in hell that add things in F2P cheap asian FPS

32 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Me: I don't care as I don't know any of them.

Short - enemies with guns are boring.

28 minutes ago, Tellis Argonis said:

the (sniper elite) Zombie Army games have stages that feature zombies armed with guns that know how to use them. The snipers leap around from perch to perch making them difficult to pin down, there's heavy gunners that take multiple headshots to kill, so on. 

Well zombie with guns were added into trilogy but this is not my point - when  you have just elite zombie ( aka gunner) it is pretty fun even if you have to fight againts 2 of them. but When they putting them + kamikaze zombies +skeletons it is just annoing. Or few places when you have to fight with few sniper zombies jumping everywhere when you don't any usefull cover

[Nevergrey]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

What would be the reason for invisibility, by the way? Are you assuming some future tech the bandits use, which would be contrary to the backstory. Or is it just a crutch to signify a bandit is in stealth?

 

I'm not sure if stealth will work. You have for example a large lava field in Navezgane. Where should a bandit take cover after he/she followed you? Behind the one tree that stands there?

 

A Reason for invisiblity? What about the same reason that made Susan Richards to 'Invisible Woman'? Radiation.  

 

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Susan_Storm_(Earth-616)

 

Quote: Dr. Susan "Sue" Richards (née Storm), aka the Invisible Woman, is an American superpowered adventurer. She was a college student before she was exposed to high levels of cosmic radiation when boyfriend and scientist, Dr, Reed Richards, took her with her younger brother, Johnny Storm and pilot Ben Grimm, into space in the stolen rocket Marvel-1. The radiation mutated her and her friends, turning her invisible and allowing her to create forcefields.

 

Please tell me when I start to bug you.  I'll keep quiet then.  

 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Nevergrey (see edit history)

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

The stuff about patrols only makes sense if you think about a thief-like game, which 7D2D is not. Stealth in the game is already working and similar to how it works against zombies it will probably work against bandits too. Even without criticial hits it is an advantage if you can scout out a camp or POI and let loose a few hits before they are able to shoot back or get behind cover.

 

 

Btw thief like game in 7dtd universe would be interesting. Stealth focused game in zombie world would be interesting but it could be controversial

[Nevergrey]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Btw thief like game in 7dtd universe would be interesting. Stealth focused game in zombie world would be interesting but it could be controversial

It shouldn't be a problem to add such gameplay as DLC or MOD.  If the AI works for it. Or a Arena MOD. Where you fight against Zombies or Bandits. Or fighting against Zombies as a bandit! Maybe bandit fractions could be an option for Multiplayer. Every fraction can build its own base and different fractions fight against each other, and Zombies. This could be interesting at Blood Moon.  Should all teams work together against the Zombie hordes, or should one team let the Zombies do the rough work and capture the base of another team then? It would be essential to build an even stronger base, because after the Zombie hordes a bandit fraction could attack. I don't know if this would be possible only for multiplayer or with the AI in solo/offline play too. It would be great if the AI could do that too, and not just human players.

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Nevergrey (see edit history)

[meganoth]

47 minutes ago, Nevergrey said:

I'm not sure if stealth will work. You have for example a large lava field in Navezgane. Where should a bandit take cover after he/she followed you? Behind the one tree that stands there?

 

Are we talking about stealth or cover here? If we talk about cover then obviously bandits will have a hard time in open terrain. But first of all it doesn't matter because the game has an unlimited supply of bandits and can literally waste them even in open ground 😉. Secondly if they don't work well as random spawns in open terrain then TFP could simply not use them that way. You would find bandits mostly in buildings or ruins (who could then be located in open terrain as well as cities).

 

Or if TFP finds the time to implement the encounter system they would just spawn far ahead in your way and shoot as soon as they come in sight.

 

What is the circumstance you imagine a bandit **following you** without having been seen already, by the way?

 

47 minutes ago, Nevergrey said:

 

A Reason for invisiblity? What about the same reason that made Susan Richards to 'Invisible Woman'? Radiation.  

 

Like alientech superhero tech is not typical for 7D2D. If TFP really want to include it they might do so, but breaking the current backstory is a drawback they surely will weigh in on any decision what to include.

 

But that is beside the point, I didn't ask for a lore explanation, I asked for the reason **you** want "visibly" invisible bandits implemented in the game? Instead of just bandits that shoot and kill you and possibly hide behind cover. What is the problem you want to solve with it?

 

47 minutes ago, Nevergrey said:

 

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Susan_Storm_(Earth-616)

 

Quote: Dr. Susan "Sue" Richards (née Storm), aka the Invisible Woman, is an American superpowered adventurer. She was a college student before she was exposed to high levels of cosmic radiation when boyfriend and scientist, Dr, Reed Richards, took her with her younger brother, Johnny Storm and pilot Ben Grimm, into space in the stolen rocket Marvel-1. The radiation mutated her and her friends, turning her invisible and allowing her to create forcefields.

 

Please tell me when I start to bug you.  I'll keep quiet then.  

 

 

 

Just to be clear I'm just a normal forum user like you. I don't have any inside knowledge of what TFP will do, I'm just as much guessing as you are.

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Yes this is not project zomboid. But it better to keep this similiar to l4d2/contagion/ no more rooms in hell that add things in F2P cheap asian FPS

Short - enemies with guns are boring.

 

See, with a statement like that I can work.

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Well zombie with guns were added into trilogy but this is not my point - when  you have just elite zombie ( aka gunner) it is pretty fun even if you have to fight againts 2 of them. but When they putting them + kamikaze zombies +skeletons it is just annoing. Or few places when you have to fight with few sniper zombies jumping everywhere when you don't any usefull cover

 

And here you disprove your previous absolute statement. As you say enemies with guns can be made to be fun or unfun, it depends on how you place them, the circumstances, ..... In short - enemies with guns can be boring or fun.

 

 

[Matt115]

49 minutes ago, Nevergrey said:

It shouldn't be a problem to add such gameplay as DLC or MOD.  If the AI works for it. Or a Arena MOD. Where you fight against Zombies or Bandits. Or fighting against Zombies as a bandit! Maybe bandit fractions could be an option for Multiplayer. Every fraction can build its own base and different fractions fight against each other, and Zombies. This could be interesting at Blood Moon.  Should all teams work together against the Zombie hordes, or should one team let the Zombies do the rough work and capture the base of another team then? It would be essential to build an even stronger base, because after the Zombie hordes a bandit fraction could attack. I don't know if this would be possible only for multiplayer or with the AI in solo/offline play too. It would be great if the AI could do that too, and not just human players.

 

...... No.

I mean - do you know army of the dead movie? it is typical zombie movie.  Army of the thiefs is heist movie. but both in this same universe. 

So - it could be interesting if you have to make heists right? and in one of the last mission you have still "cancer cure" for duke but it show up as zombie virus. 

Or dunno - more something like the last of us - you play as 16 yo when zombie outbreake happend and you are daughter of scientic and now you must ran away because duke is looking for you because he think that you know code or something like that

22 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

See, with a statement like that I can work.

 

 

And here you disprove your previous absolute statement. As you say enemies with guns can be made to be fun or unfun, it depends on how you place them, the circumstances, ..... In short - enemies with guns can be boring or fun.

 

 

This depends on game - in cod it is perfect. Stalker is good mix of people with guns and mutants with melee etc.

But let take a far cry 2 - enemies there can very fast destroy your car, can be op, annoing etc but... this game about humans so i don't complain because outpost idea was kinda bad but AI behaviour, not op guns etc make human enemy good.

But days gone - people are annoing as hell - you want to go from point A to B - but random bandit will spot you and they will shoot zombie horde will show up and kill bandit you will drive away only being.... tired?  because you have again looking for stuff to makes molotoves.

In NZA first ecounter with Elite is good because.... you don't expect zombie with gun right? + big area and a lot of ammo so this fight is pretty easy because is... unique. But another fights with them are just a little bit annoing - just throw granades head shots watch out on normal zombies. So they became annoing but.. looks good from aestetic point of view - so they are like hm.... part of setting. But zombie snipers? Looks good but devs made them terrible as hell.  So how to avoid frustrating enemy? implement them as easy as it can be. i think if they didn't give them "jumping like SNK" skill they would be better - annoing but fine.  Even skeletons spammed too often are so annoing - why? 1 granade and problem solved.

 

Well i know bandits have to be implemented but i just hope they will be simple as hell....  i hope next TFP game will be set in medieval period

[Nevergrey]

2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

...... No.

I mean - do you know army of the dead movie? it is typical zombie movie.  Army of the thiefs is heist movie. but both in this same universe. 

So - it could be interesting if you have to make heists right? and in one of the last mission you have still "cancer cure" for duke but it show up as zombie virus. 

Or dunno - more something like the last of us - you play as 16 yo when zombie outbreake happend and you are daughter of scientic and now you must ran away because duke is looking for you because he think that you know code or something like that.

 

Yep, I understand.

 

In Dead Rising 2 you have a daughter (Katey). She is already infected with the virus, but not yet transformed into a Zombie. You need to find a specific vaccine (Zombrex), that you need to inject her regularly to avoid her 'Zombification'. This could work in 7DtD too: You find other Survivors (just NPCs, no Sidekicks) and need to find medicine on the map to keep them human. Until .... I don't know. Until the NPCs get rescued by a helicopter every 7 days?

 

Just weird ideas for a already great game. I hope weird ideas are allowed in this thread.

[Matt115]

23 minutes ago, Nevergrey said:

Yep, I understand.

 

In Dead Rising 2 you have a daughter (Katey). She is already infected with the virus, but not yet transformed into a Zombie. You need to find a specific vaccine (Zombrex), that you need to inject her regularly to avoid her 'Zombification'. This could work in 7DtD too: You find other Survivors (just NPCs, no Sidekicks) and need to find medicine on the map to keep them human. Until .... I don't know. Until the NPCs get rescued by a helicopter every 7 days?

 

Just weird ideas for a already great game. I hope weird ideas are allowed in this thread.

Yep but you suggest make thing in 7dtd. I suggest new game

[Nevergrey]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

But that is beside the point, I didn't ask for a lore explanation, I asked for the reason **you** want "visibly" invisible bandits implemented in the game? Instead of just bandits that shoot and kill you and possibly hide behind cover. What is the problem you want to solve with it?

I've played a few games where the allegedly 'advanced' AI ruins the gameplay because of artificial stupidity. The more complex the AI gets, the more error-prone it gets (tendentially). There's a reason why F.E.A.R. still has one of the best (the best?) shooter AI so far - F.E.A.R. 1 was released 2005! Do you know more recent shooters with equally 'clever' enemies? And 7 Days To Die is far more complex regarding gameplay than F.E.A.R. 

 

I'm afraid that TFP will put too much complexity in the bandit AI. Making bandits invisible would be one way to make them more challenging without adding complexity to their AI. If they trace the player(s), they get invisible - until they attack. 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Nevergrey (see edit history)

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Nevergrey said:

I've played a few games where the allegedly 'advanced' AI ruins the gameplay because of artificial stupidity. The more complex the AI gets, the more error-prone it gets (tendentially). There's a reason why F.E.A.R. still has one of the best (the best?) shooter AI so far - F.E.A.R. 1 was released 2005! Do you know more recent shooters with equally 'clever' enemies? And 7 Days To Die is far more complex regarding gameplay than F.E.A.R. 

 

I'm afraid that TFP will put too much complexity in the bandit AI. Making bandits invisible would be one way to make them more challenging without adding complexity to their AI. If they trace the player(s), they get invisible - until they attack. 

 

 

 

F.E.A.R was good shooter because.... they weren't too much good shooters. What i mean by this? People were tired a about ww2 so brothers in arms  was good game but about ww2.  SW BF 2 was good rly good but mild. F.E.A.R. had good graphic, textures, lighting and gore + horror + bullet time. AI was good but was only a part because..... in star ship troopers you had  bugs , serious sam 2 is... well serious sam i don't have to explain XD Brothers in arms had better AI , swat too but... first game was about ww2 and swat was a little bit "good but not popular" game.

So... invisible bandits sounds stupid because... they are bandits - normal guys in stalker bandits style not Fallout ex 51 unit super special miltary commandos. So bandits can be good if they are in groups + have better guns like orks from wh40k

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Nevergrey said:

I've played a few games where the allegedly 'advanced' AI ruins the gameplay because of artificial stupidity. The more complex the AI gets, the more error-prone it gets (tendentially). There's a reason why F.E.A.R. still has one of the best (the best?) shooter AI so far - F.E.A.R. 1 was released 2005! Do you know more recent shooters with equally 'clever' enemies? And 7 Days To Die is far more complex regarding gameplay than F.E.A.R. 

 

I'm afraid that TFP will put too much complexity in the bandit AI. Making bandits invisible would be one way to make them more challenging without adding complexity to their AI. If they trace the player(s), they get invisible - until they attack.

 

So you solved the problem by making the bandits into predators. Many have complained about zombies that spawn behind their backs, I'm pretty sure they will feel the same about invisible bandits.

 

What is your plan, do they turn visible after the first shot or stay invisible? The former is hard to explain, the latter makes them too strong since people will often not be able to locate them.

 

My idea is more along the line that spawn points in POIs are already selected by the designer of a POI. So initial good placement does not need AI, it can be set up. Personally I would fill the wilderness with bandit nests, but naturally not in every wilderness POI, just in some

 

I don't expect that sniper to move to a new position afterwards, that would be too much to ask and unfair to the player who needs a chance to find him without too much delay.

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Telly G]

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Are we talking about stealth or cover here? If we talk about cover then obviously bandits will have a hard time in open terrain. But first of all it doesn't matter because the game has an unlimited supply of bandits and can literally waste them even in open ground 😉. Secondly if they don't work well as random spawns in open terrain then TFP could simply not use them that way. You would find bandits mostly in buildings or ruins (who could then be located in open terrain as well as cities).

 

Or if TFP finds the time to implement the encounter system they would just spawn far ahead in your way and shoot as soon as they come in sight.

 

What is the circumstance you imagine a bandit **following you** without having been seen already, by the way?

 

 

Like alientech superhero tech is not typical for 7D2D. If TFP really want to include it they might do so, but breaking the current backstory is a drawback they surely will weigh in on any decision what to include.

 

But that is beside the point, I didn't ask for a lore explanation, I asked for the reason **you** want "visibly" invisible bandits implemented in the game? Instead of just bandits that shoot and kill you and possibly hide behind cover. What is the problem you want to solve with it?

 

 

Just to be clear I'm just a normal forum user like you. I don't have any inside knowledge of what TFP will do, I'm just as much guessing as you are.

 

 

See, with a statement like that I can work.

 

 

And here you disprove your previous absolute statement. As you say enemies with guns can be made to be fun or unfun, it depends on how you place them, the circumstances, ..... In short - enemies with guns can be boring or fun.

 

 

The fantastic 4 were exposed to cosmic radiation rays during a scientific mission to outer space. The original comics are from a time when the average understanding of radiation was basically that it was magic that could do anything. 

[Nevergrey]

13 hours ago, meganoth said:

What is your plan, do they turn visible after the first shot or stay invisible?

 

 

They turn visible when they attack.  Invisible attacks wouldn't be possible for them.

 

I don't have any plans with 7D2D, I'm no part of TFP.  It's quiet simple: If it turns out that the bandit AI breaks gameplay for me and bandits can't be deactivated in the options menu, I'll stay with a version that doesn't include bandits. It seems that this would be the last Alpha 20. As far as I understood bandits will introduce in  A21. I play solo and offline only at the moment, so staying with a specific Alpha would work fine for me. 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Nevergrey (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Nevergrey said:

They turn visible when they attack.  Invisible attacks wouldn't be possible for them.

 

As a tech suit that would not make much sense, as magic or superpower it would work as you can have arbitrary rules. I just don't see the need as they will be invisible anyway until they spawn and they could spawn in cover already if TFP uses bandits as POI spawn

 

1 hour ago, Nevergrey said:

 

I don't have any plans with 7D2D, I'm no part of TFP. 

 

I know. But since we are discussing ways of how bandits could be implemented and arguing over them you should be able to specify what you would want your feature to look like and explain how it should work.

 

Only ideas that survive a gauntlet of critical questions and comments are worth considering. It may seems as a punishment when an idea one had is crushed that way but on the other hand it is a glorious moment when the occassional idea is found out to be actually a good one.

 

1 hour ago, Nevergrey said:

 

It's quiet simple: If it turns out that the bandit AI breaks gameplay for me and bandits can't be deactivated in the options menu, I'll stay with a version that doesn't include bandits. It seems that this would be the last Alpha 20. As far as I understood bandits will introduce in  A21. I play solo and offline only at the moment, so staying with a specific Alpha would work fine for me. 

 

That goes for all features you can't avoid. I don't see why bandits should be so very different, after all vanilla will be balanced so that novice players can play it from start to end. This game will never be a dark souls clone.

 

 

[Nevergrey]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

This game will never be a dark souls clone.

 

 

God forbid! No one wants that (hopefully).

[Jost Amman]

41 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

Nice try... good idea posting this on April 2 lol

[dcsobral]

2 hours ago, Beelzebubs Ghost said:

 

What's this? It obviously can't be an April fools joke - not on the 2nd of April anyway...

 

Just curious, regarding A21 - any news from any developer on more fire based weapons?

 

Or does anyone know how to mod fire arrows to inflict indefinite burning? 

 

Thanks.

The tweet was done on April 1st.

[stallionsden]

On 3/31/2022 at 12:42 AM, Drinka1ity said:

Will TFP be putting any work in A21 to allow map makers to have their own pois draw on first map draw in RWG?

Older tools like Nitrogen & KingGen were able to do this with relative ease and while A20 map maker was a vast improvement over previous versions,

it still didnt give the world makers the depth that they require in RWG to allow server managers to reset a custom prefab after a team has done a hordenight on your pride and joy and left it as rubble lol.

Shift f6 by an admin on your server.

 

Then select the 4th tab (an icon of a tower) then click poi reset which resets the poi. 

[Matt115]

On 3/31/2022 at 6:33 PM, meganoth said:

 

That goes for all features you can't avoid. I don't see why bandits should be so very different, after all vanilla will be balanced so that novice players can play it from start to end. This game will never be a dark souls clone.

 

 

On 3/31/2022 at 6:40 PM, Nevergrey said:

God forbid! No one wants that (hopefully).

I wish - damn it would be soo good! - Looking everywhere for lore, hard to find anything usefull ,hard enemies,  totaly safe places, nice ladies damn...... damn it would be sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo gooooooooooood it would be perfect : depresing and dark like pathologic , hard like darks souls , number player like bf 2042 !!