Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Evil_Geoff]

On 5/13/2023 at 10:44 PM, Old Crow said:

 

And chickens with guns

Great!  Juuust great!

Now we're going to see these show up in Mischief Maker... 🤕
 

[Uncle Al]

8 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said:

 

Not true.  Roland yelled at me one time for saying there should be naked bandits that look like Burt Reynolds, with lots of chest hair.   Long long time ago, but I remember  .   Maybe back in A16 days.

He rightly yelled at you because the sexy chest hair bandit should be modelled on Sean Connery, not Burt Reynolds:

 

 

[RipClaw]

4 hours ago, Laz Man said:

I don't think it's meaningless for everyone.  If anything, it gives you more options to use your imagination to try new strategies and trap configurations.

I meant that it is meaningless to the gameplay. There is no reason to build something from scratch unless you want to. And with the Learn by Reading system, I wouldn't be surprised if players feel like they're wasting time if they're not looking for magazines every day.

 

4 hours ago, Laz Man said:

POIs have been around forever and people still enjoy building their own bases from scratch instead of using an existing POI.

Yes, but still, I am under the impression that prefabs have been used as bases much less in the past. Now the default strategy really seems to be to look for a suitable POI near the trader on day 1 to occupy, and on day 6 or 7 to look for a gas station or other compact POI with concrete walls. Then you stand on the roof during the horde and shoot down at the zombies.

 

4 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Both strategies comes with its own trade offs. 

I don't see the disadvantage for using a prefab. You save a lot of material and time and if it is a quest POI it will even be repaired with the quest reset. All you have to do is remove the ladder and the POI is ready for the next horde.

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Gamida]

9 hours ago, DocRussel said:

Well, it is A21 which is not out yet.

 

It was more of a joke that I mentioned it, but it is weird that it had never been done before.

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

I meant that it is meaningless to the gameplay. There is no reason to build something from scratch unless you want to. And with the Learn by Reading system, I wouldn't be surprised if players feel like they're wasting time if they're not looking for magazines every day.

Why are you so worried about how and why other players will play?

Relax, enjoy your own game, and let other people play as they like. 

[OgreSlayeR]

2 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I meant that it is meaningless to the gameplay. There is no reason to build something from scratch unless you want to. And with the Learn by Reading system, I wouldn't be surprised if players feel like they're wasting time if they're not looking for magazines every day.

 

 

 

There's plenty of reasons to build for scratch so that is incorrect. For one thing, you get a lot of XP by starting from scratch and fully upgrading blocks and a lot of people find it fun. If someone wants to just use a POI and never build from scratch, then that's their prerogative and it's a valid play style as well.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, RipClaw said:

But unfortunately, it has become meaningless.

 

Because of all the prefabs, you don't need to build a base anymore. You simply occupy any POI. And for a horde base you just pick a POI with concrete walls and maybe you invest a day to modify it but that's it.

 

 

The situation has not changed with more POIs, even in A15/A16 taking over a POI at first was the easiest path, but the trader was less important. From A17 on the trader was OP so it usually would have been a POI near the trader.

 

But the veteran players changed. For example I took over POIs in A15 and A16, but started building bases in A17 because it was the first time it made a noticable difference how you built a base. I cycled through many ways of building a base until I practically had tried out all general types of base I could think of at least twice. And now I am back at taking over POIs again, unless I can think of something new I want to try out.

 

There were concrete buldings in previous alphas too. You just need one in your starting town to do lazy building. Whatever floats anyone's boat.

 

 

5 hours ago, RipClaw said:

And I'm concerned that in A21 people will have even less reason to build because everyone will be constantly hunting for magazines to unlock new recipes. In A20 you could at least unlock some recipes via the skill trees but in A21 that's not possible anymore. Then you can swing a stone axe better if you put points into Miner69s but you can't craft an iron pickaxe unless you have read the necessary number of magazines.

 

 

[doughphunghus]

4 hours ago, Evil_Geoff said:

That may be the case in a solo game.   When I play solo, I try to play like I would in a real world situation, and yes, using an existing POI that I can secure with as little work as possible is definitely how I would be going.  And yes, between TFP and modders, the number of cool buildings just keeps increasing.  The last version of the CompoPack for example, has over 1,000 prefabs that can be used on a map.  And even with all that, people still like to build their own places. 

And keep in mind that a lot of multiplayer servers don't allow players to use POI's for permanent housing or as horde night bases. 

 

Yep. Solo play using a poi as a base is quite a bit more fun as its "more real feel" and also frees up time you don't have to gather a ton of resources (all alone, so less time looting) to build a base early game (late game, so much more feasible) I also like it as sure, you can knock out stairs and hang out on second/third/etc floors and be "safe", but in larger pois the zeds always seem to find a lot of weaknesses you dont see and get to you, so you do spend some resources shoring up the holes/weak spots. Ive seen quite a few pois where i swear the designers purposefully made choices to give zeds multiple points of access to upper floors via "weak spots" they can easily break through (or just a block, and then jump up/over)... but i have no proof of that, i simply find out after it happens on horde night.

 

Poi designers: if you are doing this.... thank you and more please  !

 

With multiplayer, and a dedicated miner/harvester/builder it would be more fun and easier building a fresh base.

Edited May 15, 2023 by doughphunghus (see edit history)

[Burrfly]

9 hours ago, Riamus said:

 

 

Sure, you can find negative reviews.  You can with any game.  The vast majority are positive and that's what is important.  Negative reviews for a game that is enjoyed by most players are typically either a) the player doesn't really like that type of game, or b) the player doesn't like a specific feature or features and/or doesn't like the implementation of a specific feature or features.  You can see such reviews in your example.  Such reviews are generally unimportant.  You can't please everyone and shouldn't try to do so.  If the vast majority enjoy the game, that's what it important.  A small percentage of negative reviews doesn't matter.  If the percentage is high, that is when you need to be concerned about them.

 

This game is not in its final form and has been available for play for around 10 years now.  Things are going to change.  Some players like a specific feature even if the majority don't like it.  When that feature gets changed, those players will be upset.  That's just how it goes.  By playing the game now rather than waiting until gold, you are accepting that the game *will* change.  You can't really complain that it's changing because it's a known fact that it will change.  If that bothers you, you shouldn't be playing it before it goes gold.

 

Even comparing certain time frames isn't really a valid comparison.  Different things determine how reviews will be at any given time.  As long as the vast majority of reviews remain positive, that's what is important.  You also have to keep in mind that few people who write reviews will edit the review at a later time.  If people write a review before a new release or directly after the release and their assumption of some change is negative, they'll write a negative review and then it'll stay there even if they later realize that they like the change.  The same is true, of course, for positive reviews made in the middle of an alpha with no changes in the air.  However, people who decide later that they don't like a game are far more likely to change their review than those who initially wrote a negative review, so that will also cause inaccuracy in the reviews and is another reason you care about the overall reviews and not the relatively few negative reviews you hand-picked.

 

And it doesn't really matter if most reviews tend to be newer players who haven't played earlier alphas.  In the end, they don't care about earlier alphas and so their reviews are just as valid.  After all, it's not really any different from someone buying the gold version of a game that wasn't in early access.  They don't know how the game changed during development and it really doesn't matter to them.  All they care about is how the game is now.  Will they be upset with some changes between now and gold?  Maybe, maybe not.  Either way, the reviews that will really matter in the end are those made after gold.  And I expect those will be mostly positive.

 

The simple fact that this game has some of the highest hours played per person of any non-MMO game just goes to show that this is a very good game, regardless of anyone's opinions about any changes each alpha.  Trying to drum up negativity by hand-picking negative reviews and posting them here is really just a waste of time.  Your negativity about the game's path isn't going to change the path of the game any.  And what you or any other person wants the game to be like isn't going to be the same as what others want the game to be like.  Some like hardcore challenges, some like just regular challenge, some like it to be easy.  Some like to build bases, some like to do quests and loot, some like to kill zombies, some like it all.  Anything you do that pushes the game more towards one group than another will make one group happier and the other group unhappier.  That's just how it is.  In the end, you either like the game and play it or you do not.  The choice is yours.

 

Btw, that review about time to generate a map shows that some reviews just really aren't much use (negative or positive). Considering map generation takes 10-15 minutes or so, even on a slower computer in A20, the person either is extremely impatient or is reviewing an older version of the game (or it wasn't updated in 2022 and that's from back in 2015 when they originally wrote the review).  In A21, it'll be significantly faster.  But even the current speed is far from slow, considering all that it has to do.  If that feels like "55000 years" to someone, then they need to learn patience.  And considering many people make maps with third party map generators that can take far longer to generate a map, it's really not that valid of a review.

I agree that it is more important that most people like it, of course. Change itself isn't a bad thing, but I'm just stating that quite some people, including me, worry/dislike the fact that things are being removed. Most of these reviews are not saying that this game is bad, but they're leaving this review as they notice that so many things get removed/changed for the worse and this trend is still continuing. These reviews all state that they would think this game would be in a better state if an update would have felt like great content was not being removed.

 

Now I know I have easy speaking as it must be difficult to comply to so many requests. However, I just hope that TFP are looking at these reviews/messages.

I'm just certain that there would have been less negative and more positive reviews if things that weren't broken didn't got "fixed". These reviews are just, as it may be called, concerned people that feel like something they really liked is heading into a wrong direction. Just like you would see a good friend of you take a wrong turn in life that would be bad for his/her own health - you would worry.

[zztong]

8 hours ago, Aldranon said:

The big holidays are behind us so it could be any of the next two weekends IMO.   (Players getting it on the 22nd or the 29th).

 

The 22nd seems too close. I think we'd be hearing some PR about the streamer weekend if it were May 22.

 

May 29 is Memorial Day in the USA, making a 3-day weekend. If that were the weekend, the streamers would get an extra day. I don't think it is May 29th either.

 

June 5 and June 12 look to be still viable.

 

June 19 is "Juneteenth", so another 3-day weekend in the USA.

 

June 26 would be viable.

 

As for the dip in playing time, I know I'm sitting on my hands, chomping on the bit, ready to convert POIs, but otherwise off playing some other games trying to keep my mind off of 7d2d.

 

1 hour ago, doughphunghus said:

Ive seen quite a few pois where i swear the designers purposefully made choices to give zeds multiple points of access to upper floors via "weak spots" they can easily break through (or just a block, and then jump up/over)... but i have no proof of that, i simply find out after it happens on horde night.

 

Poi designers: if you are doing this.... thank you and more please

 

I can't speak for others, but I have (very rarely) put in weak points. One I can think of is there to allow an explosion to turn into a chain reaction. Another is a ladder in an out of the way location likely to be overlooked.

 

Using POIs as impromptu bases is a lot of fun. I love doing that.

Edited May 15, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

1 hour ago, doughphunghus said:

i swear the designers purposefully made choices to give zeds multiple points of access to upper floors via "weak spots" they can easily break through (or just a block, and then jump up/over)... but i have no proof of that, i simply find out after it happens on horde night.

 

Poi designers: if you are doing this.... thank you and more please  !

 

Funny you mention that.  I just finished building a 3 story (including roof) remnant building that has 6 ways for the AI to climb up from the ground floor....😅

 

Can those spots be fortified / blocked?  Sure, but it will take some effort to do so and hopefully create alot of great / memorable experiences on horde night.  😎

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Burrfly said:

I agree that it is more important that most people like it, of course. Change itself isn't a bad thing, but I'm just stating that quite some people, including me, worry/dislike the fact that things are being removed. Most of these reviews are not saying that this game is bad, but they're leaving this review as they notice that so many things get removed/changed for the worse and this trend is still continuing. These reviews all state that they would think this game would be in a better state if an update would have felt like great content was not being removed.

 

Now I know I have easy speaking as it must be difficult to comply to so many requests. However, I just hope that TFP are looking at these reviews/messages.

I'm just certain that there would have been less negative and more positive reviews if things that weren't broken didn't got "fixed". These reviews are just, as it may be called, concerned people that feel like something they really liked is heading into a wrong direction. Just like you would see a good friend of you take a wrong turn in life that would be bad for his/her own health - you would worry.

 

What you want is a development model where only stuff is added and never changed. That is possible if developers know exactly what features they want and how each fature should work. This is the easier the less you need to provide playable versions in the interim (like in closed development) and the more the game is following established trends and genre conventions (like if you are just making the next installment of a series or a copy of a successful game).

 

If the developers want to create something new and need to experiment and also have to provide playable versions all the way because of EA then sorry, they have no choice.

 

They added a lot of gameplay features as placeholders so they could provide early adopters with a playable game. Change is inevitable when those placeholders are replaced. They also have to adhere to some limits imposed by the engine they are using or earlier programming choices. This sometimes makes it necessary to trade one feature for another because both features together would go past the limit.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Burrfly]

8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

What you want is a development model where only stuff is added and never changed. That is possible if developers know exactly what features they want and how each fature should work. This is the easier the less you need to provide playable versions in the interim (like in closed development) and the more the game is following established trends and genre conventions (like if you are just making the next installment of a series or a copy of a successful game).

 

If the developers want to create something new and need to experiment and also have to provide playable versions all the way because of EA then sorry, they have no choice.

 

They added a lot of gameplay features as placeholders so they could provide early adopters with a playable game. Change is inevitable when those placeholders are replaced. They also have to adhere to some limits imposed by the engine they are using or earlier programming choices. This sometimes makes it necessary to trade one feature for another because both features together would go past the limit.

I truly didn't say that ONLY things should be added and nothing ever has to be changed. I've said what I wanted to say to give all these reviews and people a voice.

[meganoth]

44 minutes ago, Burrfly said:

I truly didn't say that ONLY things should be added and nothing ever has to be changed. I've said what I wanted to say to give all these reviews and people a voice.

 

Sure. But when TFP changes a feature to something else there is always a group of players crying over the lost old feature. Many of the voices you tried to represent wanted quite different features to stay, TFP could only avoid this by not changing anything and only adding.

 

In other words, TFP has to step on some shoes whenever they change something, just the shoes change. You may not have meant to say that ONLY things should be added, but that is the only way TFP could fullfill your wish for ALL the people you try to give a voice to.

 

 

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Burrfly said:

Change itself isn't a bad thing, but I'm just stating that quite some people, including me, worry/dislike the fact that things are being removed.

And this is your and others’ big stumbling block to being able to enjoy early access. Cuts, removals, edits, and streamlining is always part of the creative process for unfinished works. Usually we don’t see those things as we only get games in their finished form. 
 

Movies are a great parallel example for this. During the editing process after all the shooting is done, there is rarely any more additional footage shot. It is almost always a process of deleting and editing out footage deemed unnecessary. 
 

The problem you have is that even though you understand that the game is not finished from an intellectual standpoint, you don’t want to believe it from an emotional standpoint. Updates during early access are not DLC expansions to a complete game. They are going to include removals that never make a return. 
 

As you say, for those who never experienced previous versions there is no disappointment or feeling of loss. That will be even truer for those who purchase the final finished product. 
 

After the game goes gold, any future updates are likely to be exactly what you want—pure content expansion. It’s very unlikely they will change or remove anything that already exists. Until that time, we are in the editing and streamlining phase and you either need to reconcile yourself to that or just put the game aside until the final product is presented. 
 

All of those negative reviews are from people who are either ignorant or don’t want to face the fact that the game isn’t finished and updates aren’t simply expansionary. They shouldn’t have participated at this stage. Early access isn’t for them. 

[Laz Man]

1 hour ago, Burrfly said:

I truly didn't say that ONLY things should be added and nothing ever has to be changed. I've said what I wanted to say to give all these reviews and people a voice.

 

Burrfly, I want to first by saying thank you for asking those hard questions / concerns.  Rest assured,  the team is very aware of all of those negative reviews you highlighted.

 

We read them and the team has to make tough choices on which we can act on and which we cannot for the greater game reaching gold.

 

Once A21 arrives, I encourage you to try it out and provide all feedback good and bad and the team will do its best to make changes / adjustments where possible.

[meilodasreh]

2 hours ago, zztong said:

June 5 and June 12 look to be still viable.

One of those is my guess too.

Mid of May was out of my personal "guess range" the moment when ever-over-optimisitic Rick brought it up as "mayyybe..." during the dev stream.

*Feel free to rant at me instead of TFP if you didn't like what you read before*

[RipClaw]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

The situation has not changed with more POIs, even in A15/A16 taking over a POI at first was the easiest path, but the trader was less important. From A17 on the trader was OP so it usually would have been a POI near the trader.

Nevertheless, I have the impression that fewer and fewer players build a base and more and more fall back on prefabs.

 

One reason for building a base from scratch in A15 and A16 was that the zombies left a corpse that you could search. If you could manage to spread out the zombie corpses over a large area, you had significantly more loot from the horde night. A base like this was more or less self-sustaining.

 

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

There were concrete buldings in previous alphas too. You just need one in your starting town to do lazy building. Whatever floats anyone's boat.

There were significantly fewer than today. Most of the POIs I remember were made from wood.

 

[Jost Amman]

37 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Nevertheless, I have the impression that fewer and fewer players build a base and more and more fall back on prefabs.

Based on what? How big is your statistical data pool?

My impression, based on me playing the game, is the opposite of yours then. How curious! 

[Riamus]

4 hours ago, Burrfly said:

I agree that it is more important that most people like it, of course. Change itself isn't a bad thing, but I'm just stating that quite some people, including me, worry/dislike the fact that things are being removed. Most of these reviews are not saying that this game is bad, but they're leaving this review as they notice that so many things get removed/changed for the worse and this trend is still continuing. These reviews all state that they would think this game would be in a better state if an update would have felt like great content was not being removed.

 

Now I know I have easy speaking as it must be difficult to comply to so many requests. However, I just hope that TFP are looking at these reviews/messages.

I'm just certain that there would have been less negative and more positive reviews if things that weren't broken didn't got "fixed". These reviews are just, as it may be called, concerned people that feel like something they really liked is heading into a wrong direction. Just like you would see a good friend of you take a wrong turn in life that would be bad for his/her own health - you would worry.

The problem is that what you think is "great content" may be what someone else thinks is "horrible content".  People have different views of what is good or bad.  As I said, some people want one thing while others what another and those two things may not work together and so one or the other has to be chosen.  This will upset some people while making others happy.  As far as things being removed, this is not a finished game.  It is a game that is in active development.  Things are necessarily going to change, be added, tested, removed, etc.  That's how development works.  Whenever you play an early access game, you are going to have to accept that or you'll just find yourself frustrated over some of the changes.  For example, they made changes to water in A21 to make it harder to get.  This was because many people wanted more of a survival feel to the game and water was a non-issue.  So the change is for people who are asking for that.  Yet there are others who will consider this change to make that part of the game a grind and will not like it and you'll see reviews about how they removed glass jars for "no reason" and that it "wasn't broke, so don't fix it" and so on.  There just isn't any way to make everyone happy.  If dealing with early access is not something people are okay with because of the changes, then they really should not be playing early access games.  Wait for gold and nothing is likely to get removed afterwards.

[RipClaw]

13 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Based on what? How big is your statistical data pool?

My impression, based on me playing the game, is the opposite of yours then. How curious! 

I never said that my impression is objective, but yours certainly isn't either.

 

I sometimes are visiting the channels youtubers and streamers that I know from the time of A15 and A16. Almost all of them don't build bases anymore but just stand on roofs of POIs and shoot down.

 

[Aldranon]

3 hours ago, zztong said:

 

Using POIs as impromptu bases is a lot of fun. I love doing that.

 

I agree!  I like the Barn with the rounded roof.  I live in an expanded 2nd floor just because the roof makes it feel spacious. 

The bottom floor is partially filled in with whatever, to make a decent foundation.

[Riamus]

55 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Nevertheless, I have the impression that fewer and fewer players build a base and more and more fall back on prefabs.

 

17 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

Based on what? How big is your statistical data pool?

My impression, based on me playing the game, is the opposite of yours then. How curious! 

Jost Amman's response is perfect here.  What is your data that suggests this?  Your impression may be based only on your own playstyle or the playstyle of the limited number of people you might play the game with.  As I had mentioned, the forum is filled with people complaining about the magazines because they like to build their own bases, which goes against your stated impression.

 

And regarding magazines, they only affect crafting.  If someone is playing solo, then they may want to craft things and may need to spend time getting magazines, yes.  But they will also most likely be scavenging and/or questing already for other things they need in order to build their base, so they are going to be able to acquire magazines while doing what they are already doing.  Maybe it'll take a bit more effort to get some of the higher unlocks but that isn't likely to make many people (if any) change from building their own base to using a POI.  And for multiplayer, the base builders usually don't need to craft things unless they want to and so will not need those magazines at all.

 

In short, if people like building their own bases, they are going to continue to do so.  If they prefer the "easy" route of updating a POI, then they'll continue to choose that route.  Some will alternate and some will end up changing when they get bored of one route or the other but more POI isn't really going to affect that to any noticeable extent.  And when it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter.  People can play the game in whatever way they like.  It doesn't matter if they choose POI or choose to build a base.  As long as they enjoy it, there's no reason to be concerned about it.

3 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I never said that my impression is objective, but yours certainly isn't either.

 

I sometimes are visiting the channels youtubers and streamers that I know from the time of A15 and A16. Almost all of them don't build bases anymore but just stand on roofs of POIs and shoot down.

 

That is hardly a good representation of regular players.  They'll often do stuff like this because watching someone build a base isn't the most enjoyable and entertaining thing to watch.  Being able to quickly set up a base and stick to action will get you more viewers.

[Jost Amman]

7 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I never said that my impression is objective, but yours certainly isn't either.

Never said that, either. I guess we both gave our subjective impressions... that was my point.

 

7 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I sometimes are visiting the channels youtubers and streamers that I know from the time of A15 and A16. Almost all of them don't build bases anymore but just stand on roofs of POIs and shoot down.

And that's certainly a wider base of data than yourself only, BUT it's still a very narrow data pool for having a reliable impression of what the real trend is.

On top of that, I'd say that base building is boring, and most Streamers and YouTubers will probably avoid doing that during their shows.

 

Edit: Riamus beat me to it, lol

Edited May 15, 2023 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Riamus]

On 5/13/2023 at 3:30 PM, Robbing Zombie said:

Demo-vultures! 🤓

 

On 5/13/2023 at 8:54 PM, beerfly said:

And feral ducks

 

On 5/13/2023 at 10:44 PM, Old Crow said:

 

And chickens with guns

 

On 5/13/2023 at 11:55 PM, hiemfire said:

 

They don't need a ranged attack or a commander. Just cross them with piranha and increase their metabolism. Ever seen chickens chase a beetle? Now imagine 10 to 50 of them chasing you with serrated beaks.  

 

There was a song from a group in the upper peninsula of Michigan back in about the 90s that wrote humorous songs that was called Chiquito Wars.  The group was Da Yoopers.  The song was about mosquitos that mated with chickens and created "chiquitos" that could eat through chain link fences and suck a dog dry and carry a person off.  These comments reminded me of that song.  It's a fun song if you want to look it up.  Seeing that added to the game would be quite interesting. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)