Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[Carlmunist]

Dusting off this old account bc I'm honestly sad to say I think A21 may be what kills 7 Days for me. Been playing for years, and will give the new version a chance but it really sounds like the nail in the coffin.

 

I will say, new POIs and furnishings sounds really cool, as do the spear improvements and the water improvements.  I'm not a fan of the implication that we won't be able to harvest water from streams and etc anymore but that I think could be adapted to. Most of the other confirmed stuff I'm neutral toward.

 

What's fully killed my hype for the future of this game is the Learn By Reading system. Honestly, I think it's the biggest mistake TFP have made in this game so far. Locking all crafting recipes and upgrades behind RNG is going to make the game more tedious and boring, which isn't what it needs. We need more stuff to do to keep the game engaging and fun into the long hours of play, not an extended and randomized grind. The game had a grind already of course, but one that felt like it mattered. 

 

Welp. I'm sure no one is interested in my two cents (especially based on the handful of pages of this thread I've read), but I wanted to voice them anyway because this is very disappointing. This was a favorite game of mine to play with loved ones, and it sounds like we're at the end of the line. (Unless modders bring us back an old system or make a better one.)

 

I probably won't be logging back in here again, as I'm not looking to debate. I wish TFP well in their future projects, and hope this won't be as bad as it sounds.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Carlmunist (see edit history)

[bdubyah]

So all these people that hate the idea of learn by looting...did you hate back when finding the minibike book and forge books and stuff were total RNG? There were a lot of people that didn't like when that was changed back then, and this new system sounds like a full blown version of that. I don't see why there's so much hate for it, it's not like it's totally new to the game. Also, people have long cried for removing weapon crafting from being perk-gated, which it sounds like this will do.

 

I remember loving the hunt for those books, so I'm hopeful this system will bring some of that feeling back.

[WarWren]

1 hour ago, bdubyah said:

So all these people that hate the idea of learn by looting...did you hate back when finding the minibike book and forge books and stuff were total RNG? There were a lot of people that didn't like when that was changed back then, and this new system sounds like a full blown version of that. I don't see why there's so much hate for it, it's not like it's totally new to the game. Also, people have long cried for removing weapon crafting from being perk-gated, which it sounds like this will do.

 

I remember loving the hunt for those books, so I'm hopeful this system will bring some of that feeling back.

I miss those days too.

 

In defense of the new "learn by looting" system - it's not a new concept and is a wonderful part of the zombie survival game, Project Zomboid.  Learning by reading books just makes sense and finding said books is exciting. Personally, this is my favorite change for A21. I really hope this makes loot more relevant to the place its looted thus making POI's more relevant too. My big gripe with loot is the ability to find most of it in most places. I hope magazines make finding certain POI's exciting again making each POI more special in its own right by way of localized loot.  

[Jost Amman]

I think the current moniker for the new system isn't the best one... we should probably call it "Craft by Looting" (CBL) from now on, IMO.

I've read on Steam people that got confused and thought that you'll only learn skills and perks from books from now on.

[Cr0wst0rm]

2 hours ago, Carlmunist said:

Dusting off this old account bc I'm honestly sad to say I think A21 may be what kills 7 Days for me. Been playing for years, and will give the new version a chance but it really sounds like the nail in the coffin.

 

I will say, new POIs and furnishings sounds really cool, as do the spear improvements and the water improvements.  I'm not a fan of the implication that we won't be able to harvest water from streams and etc anymore but that I think could be adapted to. Most of the other confirmed stuff I'm neutral toward.

 

What's fully killed my hype for the future of this game is the Learn By Reading system. Honestly, I think it's the biggest mistake TFP have made in this game so far. Locking all crafting recipes and upgrades behind RNG is going to make the game more tedious and boring, which isn't what it needs. We need more stuff to do to keep the game engaging and fun into the long hours of play, not an extended and randomized grind. The game had a grind already of course, but one that felt like it mattered. 

 

Welp. I'm sure no one is interested in my two cents (especially based on the handful of pages of this thread I've read), but I wanted to voice them anyway because this is very disappointing. This was a favorite game of mine to play with loved ones, and it sounds like we're at the end of the line. (Unless modders bring us back an old system or make a better one.)

 

I probably won't be logging back in here again, as I'm not looking to debate. I wish TFP well in their future projects, and hope this won't be as bad as it sounds.

While im not dissapointed by LbL system, (i think it is better than LbC system), i am more dissapointed by lack of features. The water system is a great addition but when looking at confirmed feature list, it feels kind of short to be fair.... Some graphic changes are the most of things i can make out of this list. No bandits is a def. killer for me. I work for some other game studio, and i was able to implement 3 subsystems for that game, being animal skinning system, ambient music system (combat, suspense etc crossfades) and fall damage system IN JUST ONE MONTH. While it may sound like something trivial, i feel it is almost the same as this list of features offers. (water logic excluded). Mostly visuals, that could be solved in just few seconds by purchasing some decent assets and then puting them in substance painter for sec, that should be it. And not putting it in "feature list", because people dont care that much about graphics, you can do placeholders for time being and do graphics when gameplay elements are done....

Edited November 5, 2022 by Cr0wst0rm (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

23 minutes ago, Cr0wst0rm said:

While im not dissapointed by LbL system, (i think it is better than LbC system), i am more dissapointed by lack of features. The water system is a great addition but when looking at confirmed feature list, it feels kind of short to be fair.... Some graphic changes are the most of things i can make out of this list. No bandits is a def. killer for me. I work for some other game studio, and i was able to implement 3 subsystems for that game, being animal skinning system, ambient music system (combat, suspense etc crossfades) and fall damage system. While it may sound like something easy and absolutely unnoticeable in details, i feel it is almost the same as this list of features offers. (water logic excluded). Mostly visuals, that could be solved in just few seconds by purchasing some decent assets and then puting them in substance painter for sec, that should be it. And not putting it in "feature list", because people dont care that much about graphics, you can do placeholders for time being and do graphics when gameplay elements are done....

All those systems you mentioned you've worked on, however, don't seem to need any kind of balancing (maybe only the skinning system regarding how much stuff you get from skinning?). In the case of TFP's systems that they're working on, there's A LOT of rebalancing going on. I can only imagine the huge amount of work they're doing just on the loot tables alone. After that, they need the QA staff to test and give feedback, and then if something needs rebalancing, they need to do it all over again.

 

Most people see only one small slice of the cake and think that those changes are (pun intended) "a piece of cake" to do.

I don't think that's the case here.

 

[Ganeshakw]

Just hoping we would be able to play the game on a 2 GB VRam.

[Cr0wst0rm]

16 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

All those systems you mentioned you've worked on, however, don't seem to need any kind of balancing (maybe only the skinning system regarding how much stuff you get from skinning?). In the case of TFP's systems that they're working on, there's A LOT of rebalancing going on. I can only imagine the huge amount of work they're doing just on the loot tables alone. After that, they need the QA staff to test and give feedback, and then if something needs rebalancing, they need to do it all over again.

 

Most people see only one small slice of the cake and think that those changes are (pun intended) "a piece of cake" to do.

I don't think that's the case here.

 

Balancing is just value changing (in their case xml) You make new systems first, balance second

[RipClaw]

2 hours ago, bdubyah said:

So all these people that hate the idea of learn by looting...did you hate back when finding the minibike book and forge books and stuff were total RNG?

You can't compare that directly because there were significant differences in the game. Back then, when you raided a crack a book, there was something to be found in almost every bookshelf. In addition, nearly all zombies dropped loot. Mostly it was garbage but sometimes there was something good. I had a horde base in A16 that was designed to get as many of the zombie corpses as possible. After the horde night I had chests full of loot. I didn't have to loot non-stop instead the loot came to me.

 

An important difference is also that you only have to find schematics once. However, you have to find up to 100 of the magazines to build a Q5 auger, for example.
 

[9664488]

Spoiler

А почему нет не единого слово про оптимизацию игры ? или это вообще не входит в планы разрабов ?

 

And why is not a single word about the optimization of the game? Or it is not in the plans of developers? 

Edited November 5, 2022 by meganoth
translation (see edit history)

[Callum123456789]

3 hours ago, bdubyah said:

So all these people that hate the idea of learn by looting...did you hate back when finding the minibike book and forge books and stuff were total RNG? There were a lot of people that didn't like when that was changed back then, and this new system sounds like a full blown version of that. I don't see why there's so much hate for it, it's not like it's totally new to the game. Also, people have long cried for removing weapon crafting from being perk-gated, which it sounds like this will do.

 

I remember loving the hunt for those books, so I'm hopeful this system will bring some of that feeling back.

Yeah I was thinking the same thing like people weren't the biggest fans of looking for books like minibikes for dumb@%$#s but the game was still awesome same thing will apply here.

[blueboyxg]

Okay so hear me out guys.. I had idea for upcoming change in crafting by Learn by Reading system. I had thoughts about it and some sort of idea of how it would be good (maybe?). So basically there is action skills system in Undead Legacy mod where there are action skills which are leveled up by DOING stuff, So I had idea to made it come back from alpha 15/16 where there were action skills to make for example tools. But there was exploit where when you was crafting all the time stone axes you would lvl up that action skill in those alphas. So basically in Undead Legacy there are actions skill which will give you some % bonus for doing that right stuff. So for example there is action skill called mining tools, so if you are mining stone all day you would lvl up that skill only. And there is % bonuses all the way up to lvl 100. So 0 lvl is nothing after lvl 20 you will get 25% block dmg and harvest % more of the stone. So I had idea which would be pretty good for Learn by Looting as well ! To overhaul action skills from Undead Legacy to point for example for pickaxes - Mining Tools 0 lvl you would craft grey mining tools 25 orange 50 green and 75 blue and 100 lvl would be just like in 20 alpha just bonus to harvest materials and block damage. But there would be catch. You know how to craft blue tier stone axe but there would be % chance somehow fail crafting and you would craft one tier lower item. So for example I know how to craft iron pickaxe by the time like 8 day and finally I found steel tools schematic, but Oh wait I know how to craft finally steel pickaxe but I dont know how to craft it the proper way so there is 5% chance (more or less) depends if it will be like this, that I would somehow not correct glue it together (for example :D) so I would make 1 tier lower item so from Blue Tier Steel pickaxe I would do green. - it would still cost materials to make Blue tier pickaxe- and then there are those magazines. There would be for example 10 magazines for (How to craft proper Steel pickaxe for dummies) and they would lower the chance from failing to craft proper Blue Steel pickaxe. Those magazines would be like I have 5% to fail crafting so I would need 10 magazines to properly craft Blue tier pickaxe. So what that that mean ? I would NEED to LOOT the magazines to be able to craft proper tier of the pickaxe. Thanks for reading this akward thoughts of my ! - Sorry for spelling my english is bad I know ..

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, 9664488 said:

  Reveal hidden contents

А почему нет не единого слово про оптимизацию игры ? или это вообще не входит в планы разрабов ?

 

And why is not a single word about the optimization of the game? Or it is not in the plans of developers? 

 

Optimization is happening all the time. Faatal, the head programmer is often talking about it here in the dev dairy. For example:

 

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/28129-alpha-21-dev-diary/?do=findComment&comment=504639

 

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/28129-alpha-21-dev-diary/?do=findComment&comment=504640

 

 

56 minutes ago, blueboyxg said:

Okay so hear me out guys.. I had idea for upcoming change in crafting by Learn by Reading system. I had thoughts about it and some sort of idea of how it would be good (maybe?). So basically there is action skills system in Undead Legacy mod where there are action skills which are leveled up by DOING stuff, So I had idea to made it come back from alpha 15/16 where there were action skills to make for example tools. But there was exploit where when you was crafting all the time stone axes you would lvl up that action skill in those alphas. So basically in Undead Legacy there are actions skill which will give you some % bonus for doing that right stuff. So for example there is action skill called mining tools, so if you are mining stone all day you would lvl up that skill only. And there is % bonuses all the way up to lvl 100. So 0 lvl is nothing after lvl 20 you will get 25% block dmg and harvest % more of the stone. So I had idea which would be pretty good for Learn by Looting as well ! To overhaul action skills from Undead Legacy to point for example for pickaxes - Mining Tools 0 lvl you would craft grey mining tools 25 orange 50 green and 75 blue and 100 lvl would be just like in 20 alpha just bonus to harvest materials and block damage. But there would be catch. You know how to craft blue tier stone axe but there would be % chance somehow fail crafting and you would craft one tier lower item. So for example I know how to craft iron pickaxe by the time like 8 day and finally I found steel tools schematic, but Oh wait I know how to craft finally steel pickaxe but I dont know how to craft it the proper way so there is 5% chance (more or less) depends if it will be like this, that I would somehow not correct glue it together (for example :D) so I would make 1 tier lower item so from Blue Tier Steel pickaxe I would do green. - it would still cost materials to make Blue tier pickaxe- and then there are those magazines. There would be for example 10 magazines for (How to craft proper Steel pickaxe for dummies) and they would lower the chance from failing to craft proper Blue Steel pickaxe. Those magazines would be like I have 5% to fail crafting so I would need 10 magazines to properly craft Blue tier pickaxe. So what that that mean ? I would NEED to LOOT the magazines to be able to craft proper tier of the pickaxe. Thanks for reading this akward thoughts of my ! - Sorry for spelling my english is bad I know ..

 

However good your idea might be, it won't happen in 7D2D. First of all the developers said action skills/learn-by-doing is not coming back for 7d2d. Secondly they are relatively speaking near the end of development, they will only do the necessary stuff to get to a release and they consider the current perk system ready for release (except for the crafting subsystem that is)

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Fanatical_Meat]

2 hours ago, 9664488 said:

  Hide contents

А почему нет не единого слово про оптимизацию игры ? или это вообще не входит в планы разрабов ?

 

And why is not a single word about the optimization of the game? Or it is not in the plans of developers? 

It’s been mentioned and there are some for A21, optimizations are planned to mostly happen when Alphas end.

[blueboyxg]

50 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Optimization is happening all the time. Faatal, the head programmer is often talking about it here in the dev dairy. For example:

 

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/28129-alpha-21-dev-diary/?do=findComment&comment=504639

 

https://community.7daystodie.com/topic/28129-alpha-21-dev-diary/?do=findComment&comment=504640

 

 

 

However good your idea might be, it won't happen in 7D2D. First of all the developers said action skills/learn-by-doing is not coming back for 7d2d. Secondly they are relatively speaking near the end of development, they will only do the necessary stuff to get to a release and they consider the current perk system ready for release (except for the crafting subsystem that is)

 

Oh sad to hear then 😕  but first of all it´s their game so it´s their right to do what they want to do

[meilodasreh]

10 hours ago, Snowydeath said:

What POI is it? I am genuinely curious and would love to go look at it in game!

I started a new game and took a quick "debug mode flyby" over the region a thought it was, but couldn't find it again.

Maybe DF interferes with the map, or it even isn't a thing any more (cant even remember what alpha it was when I was there. I would assume 17 or 19?)

When I found it I thought it would be supposed to somehow be connected to the not-yet-existent storyline (had actually working motion sensors outside), was mainly underground, and at the top some "out-of-place-but-beautiful" landscape with said cascading water.

Maybe somebody else can help me correct my obviously broken memory?

[Matt115]

7 hours ago, bdubyah said:

So all these people that hate the idea of learn by looting...did you hate back when finding the minibike book and forge books and stuff were total RNG? There were a lot of people that didn't like when that was changed back then, and this new system sounds like a full blown version of that. I don't see why there's so much hate for it, it's not like it's totally new to the game. Also, people have long cried for removing weapon crafting from being perk-gated, which it sounds like this will do.

 

I remember loving the hunt for those books, so I'm hopeful this system will bring some of that feeling back.

Yes? i told many times about removing for example steel parts.

[meilodasreh]

8 hours ago, Carlmunist said:

this is very disappointing. This was a favorite game of mine to play with loved ones, and it sounds like we're at the end of the line.

What a pessimistic guy.

He doesn't even seem to want to give it a try at least, but has already totally made up his mind what he thinks it will be is cast in stone, just by few pieces of info he derived when reading a few pages of this thread.

[Roland]

5 hours ago, Cr0wst0rm said:

While im not dissapointed by LbL system, (i think it is better than LbC system), i am more dissapointed by lack of features. The water system is a great addition but when looking at confirmed feature list, it feels kind of short to be fair.... Some graphic changes are the most of things i can make out of this list. No bandits is a def. killer for me. I work for some other game studio, and i was able to implement 3 subsystems for that game, being animal skinning system, ambient music system (combat, suspense etc crossfades) and fall damage system IN JUST ONE MONTH. While it may sound like something trivial, i feel it is almost the same as this list of features offers. (water logic excluded). Mostly visuals, that could be solved in just few seconds by purchasing some decent assets and then puting them in substance painter for sec, that should be it. And not putting it in "feature list", because people dont care that much about graphics, you can do placeholders for time being and do graphics when gameplay elements are done....

That isn’t a complete list. Once the devs start their dev stream to show A21, there will be some lengthening of that list. Personally, I can’t imagine myself going back to A20. Everything about A21 feels more refined. 

[Laz Man]

15 minutes ago, meilodasreh said:

What a pessimistic guy.

He doesn't even seem to want to give it a try at least, but has already totally made up his mind what he thinks it will be is cast in stone, just by few pieces of info he derived when reading a few pages of this thread.

 

Wrong or right, there are alot of players with so many hours in the game, refinement changes are just always going to sound less enticing versus additional content.

 

Given how long the game has been in development, it is one reason modding is held in such high regard by many.

 

Hopefully, their is enough new content in A21 to keep most people entertained until bandits and the main story is injected.

 

From the level design side, we have a few surprises we hope will please alot of people.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[Roland]

9 hours ago, Carlmunist said:

What's fully killed my hype for the future of this game is the Learn By Reading system. Honestly, I think it's the biggest mistake TFP have made in this game so far. Locking all crafting recipes and upgrades behind RNG is going to make the game more tedious and boring, which isn't what it needs. We need more stuff to do to keep the game engaging and fun into the long hours of play, not an extended and randomized grind. The game had a grind already of course, but one that felt like it mattered. 

I don’t know if this helps or not but in my experience the new system doesn’t feel like a grind at all. A grind requires that you have control over the outcome of an action and through repetition of that action you can determine the outcome you want.  So you can grind on a safe with a stone axe because you know by repeating that action you will eventually get into the safe. You can grind skill points by finding the best action that grants xp and then repeating it to rack up the points. You can grind the trader by finding something to sell and repeating the action of getting that item to sell and make money and of course you can grind the quests. It’s all guaranteed. 
 

You quickly will realize that there is no way to choose a specific magazine title and grind for that. It’s random and because of that there is no incentive to focus on one magazine to grind it out efficiently to get to the top. Even with your perk bonus you still tend to find a wide range of magazines. You can mitigate that a bit by being selective in which POIs you enter and which loot containers you open but it is still random. You don’t know and can’t control which magazine will be in any crate and you intuitively come to realize the futility of this as you play. (MP will be different as teams can funnel specific titles to their specialists). 
 

Now, if you are the type of person who only likes to play with the best gear and can’t stand the inefficiency of lower tier stuff and have always maximized the grinds to get to top gear as quickly as possible, then you probably won’t like the crafting change.
 

BUT chances are that you never crafted your own gear anyway in A20 and so you probably won’t in A21 either. You’ll just grind your Lootstage up quickly and visit  biomes with a Lootstage bonus to find the high tier gear as quickly as you can. You’ll grind your quest tiers up as fast as you can to get the top gear rewards as quickly as you can from the trader. Just because you can only craft a yellow pipe shotgun doesn’t mean you can’t still use to full effect a purple auto shotgun you got from a T5 quest reward and that gameplay loop probably feels pretty much the same as A20 and below as far as results go—always getting in loot or trader rewards stuff that is better than you can craft. 
 

So in summary, recipe learning is random again like it used to be and can’t really effectively be grinded. You simply make do with what you have which will be a really nostalgic feeling for a lot of old timers.  However, if you want the best stuff there is a min/max grind fest option still available to you that hasn’t really changed. Use the trader and quests and grind up your Lootstage and you’ll get your top gear goodies more quickly than those who like a more slow progression and who like to mostly craft their own stuff. 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Roland]

5 hours ago, RipClaw said:

An important difference is also that you only have to find schematics once. However, you have to find up to 100 of the magazines to build a Q5 auger, for example.

 

Another important difference is that back then you had to live without an Auger at all until you could find the schematic but long before you get to 100 magazines you will be able to play with augers you crafted yourself that get progressively better until you eventually gain the recipe for a Q5 Auger. Its not the same "all or nothing" feature as before. Now, if a person refuses to craft a Q1-4 auger because they can't stand playing with sub-optimal gear then the result will be pretty close to how it was by their own choice.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

23 minutes ago, Roland said:

I don’t know if this helps or not but in my experience the new system doesn’t feel like a grind at all. A grind requires that you have control over the outcome of an action and through repetition of that action you can determine the outcome you want.

As I understand it, grind is simply the mechanical repetition of activities. Whether that is killing zombies, looting POI or mining resources. Whether it feels like a grind always depends on whether you like the activity or not. So if you like looting then it doesn't feel like a grind. But if you don't like looting then it is a grind.

 

[mstdv inc]

Hi @faatal Is it possible in theory to add a script with a timer to the game that will be synchronized with the time on a PC or a microsoft time synchronization server so that seasonal thematic content automatically appears in the loot and sale game at a certain time?

Edited November 5, 2022 by mstdv inc (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

2 minutes ago, Roland said:

Now, if a person refuses to craft a Q1-4 auger because they can't stand playing with sub-optimal gear then the result will be pretty close to how it was by their own choice.

The question is whether we will even have the necessary parts and steel to craft a new Auger at each quality level. It doesn't help me to be able to make a Q2 auger when I have already spent all the parts for a Q1 auger.