Please stop trying to tell us how to play

[canadianbluebeer]

Once the zombies started stacking  into the same space, I turned block damage down.

 

1 zed at 100% no big deal.

6 zeds in the same space all beating on the same block?  nope. not good.

6 zeds making the pyramid to get over the wall?  cool!

 

(and demo damage was just too high imho)

 

[AtomicUs5000]

On 1/2/2022 at 12:00 AM, Desmondbratcat said:

I am a long time player, I have thousands of hours invested in this game and that's because I love it.  I love what you guys are doing with the scenery, textures, roads, cities, POI's, you have made a fantastic game. 

 

This describes most of us in these forums. Trust me, it doesn't hold any weight in presenting arguments here.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 12:00 AM, Desmondbratcat said:

Having said that, I get very frustrated with being forced into a certain play or build style because you guys don't like the way I do things.  You give me these tools and then you try and dictate how to use them.  I'm pretty sure you already know what I'm talking about, the no more building underground

 

Games have rules. They cannot be games without them. Digging down three blocks and placing a frame over your head isn't a great game. 

 

On 1/2/2022 at 12:00 AM, Desmondbratcat said:

If I want to build a base underground out of poles that is my decision, it is not for you to decide that is not how I should play, I will play how I want to play and if I can't then I will look around and find something that I can.

 

Well, that's not very fair at all. I want to build a base out of applesauce, but I accept that I cannot. If the game is made solely for how you want it, then I can never possibly get it the way I want it. It is in fact exactly for them to decide how anybody plays THEIR game. 

 

On 1/2/2022 at 12:00 AM, Desmondbratcat said:

There are many other things you guys can stuff around with for example fix the blocks and items that go invisible.  Sort out the optimisation.  Fix the stability issue.

 

All of these changes were done over time. Some were old features reintroduced. In all cases, they were actually just a small portion of what they worked on during each alpha. As far as I know and can tell, they have been working on optimization and stability over the past several alphas. Every time the systems get bigger and better, it has to be done at least a little to keep the game running smoothly for at least the majority of players. They cannot possibly fully optimize when they know they are adding more to the game. That cannot come until the very end.

 

On 1/2/2022 at 12:00 AM, Desmondbratcat said:

Honestly guys, with the current world situation and our governments telling us what to do and how to do it how about you give us a break and just let us play how we want to play, not how you want us to play.  I don't know how to make this any clearer - just please stop.

 

Honestly, with the current world situation and our governments telling us what to do and how to do it, you would think you could develop your game in your own vision without players telling you how to make it.
 

[DiegoLBC1]

Well... I like to play SP and MP, alone or with friends. In each case it is "a different game", because of different settings, mods and so on.

I'm always adapting, I don't feel forced to play in any specific way. If I don't like a game mode on some server I just don't play there anymore. I'm currently downgraded  to A19, because me and my friends wants to do the final battle on a server, before they upgrade to A20, but I played/tested the A20, it's more challenging and "difficult", so I changed my focus on the game. "Goodbye" to battling zombies like a crazy, "hello" to stealth and change course.

[SnowDog1942]

7 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Actually, some people have done that in this thread. They said he should disable the Horde if he wants to have an underground base.

Huh?  He can build an underground base with horde on as well.  Ive done it.

[JCrook1028]

18 hours ago, RipClaw said:

 

I'm not sure that's what caused the base to collapse. I watched the moment of the collapse frame by frame and there was only one zombie down there. The janitor who fell down moments before. During the horde, zombies kept falling down and they probably attacked the pillar before making their way back up.

 

Sp you're trying to tell me that Zombies don't randomly attack the base rather than follow an open path? The simplest way I can respond to that is this. You are wrong.

[RipClaw]

48 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

Sp you're trying to tell me that Zombies don't randomly attack the base rather than follow an open path? The simplest way I can respond to that is this. You are wrong.

No, I only pointed out that at the time of the collapse, according to the video images, there was only one zombie down there that had fallen down shortly before. Whether zombies attacked the pillars on the way up or not cannot be determined from the video.

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Huh?  He can build an underground base with horde on as well.  Ive done it.

I've done it too but he was told so. You are welcome to read the thread.

 

[meganoth]

14 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Actually, some people have done that in this thread. They said he should disable the Horde if he wants to have an underground base.

 

They have told him this was one way to have practically the same result as zombies not digging on horde night. And I thought that "have underground base" was the way he wanted to play and nobody told him not to do that.

 

Naturally in a strict nitpicky way you are absolutely correct:

A: "I want to shoot zombies in the head but I always hit the torso"

B: "Point the gun a little higher"

A: "Don't tell me how to play the game" 😉

Edited January 7, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Stranded_Napkin]

Wow, the cognitive dissonance in this thread is really sad. We know for a fact this isn't balancing. They are truly responding to trends in the player base. That was the entire reason why they did away with the learn by doing mechanic. It wasn't that they couldn't balance it. It was entirely because they saw the player base taking advantage of it and couldn't be bothered to fix it. Now instead of a system that has basis in reality, your character magically learns things by spec'ing into them in a skill tree. You can make a million level 1 bows but until your character looks off into the distance and has a brain aneurism they won't make one at level 2. 

 

The digging thing wasn't even the first adjustment to how players used underground bases. Players learned that long falls would kill the zombies. They then built drop bases that went to bedrock. The Fun Pimps then adjusted the system to only cripple zombies. This still helped people too much as a fall onto log spikes would eventually kill them. Then they removed log spikes because f the players who liked using them even as simply a way to slow the zombies. They also changed the way fall damage was calculated that made falls less useful. They still are but you have to make them fall several times so it's a moot point. My biggest issue with the digging is the moronic animation they went with. Tell me, when was the last time you dug a hole with your knees? Zombies look like a bunch of children throwing a tantrum.

 

The AI update was insane. It was much needed though. I wouldn't say it was a mistake to update it but it was definitely a work in progress. The degree from MIT wasn't too far off. They could navigate a freaking labyrinth better than the Edward Scissorhands could cut hair. Still, in A16 the zeds would run right past you it was so bad, so I'm not so upset with how it's progressed.

 

If this was a matter of balancing though, other changes could have had the desired effect but with far less changes. Instead of magic brain aneurisms all they had to do was change the crafting time. If they gave crafting slightly higher xp and made crafting take far longer they could have stunted how much people could gain in a night of crafting and sitting in the corner. Nope too obvious a fix. Instead of making all zombies dig and also changing the AI so that they know about their damage bonus when all attacking the same block, they could have added a couple zombie types that may show up with general spawns that have digging  specialties. This would allow even regular zombies to get to you but without the laser focused speed drilling. For real though, professional oil riggers and miners couldn't dig that fast if they were given the Super Digger. OK, maybe that's an exaggeration. Still, it was never about balancing. It was The Fun Pimps trying to show the player base that they were smarter than us. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Stranded_Napkin (see edit history)

[Kasad]

I agree with the title completely. I too am a veteran player and I consider some of the balance changes made to A20 just plain unfair. Why can't I gain a stable amount of crops to craft better food recipe alternatives? Why do spike traps feel overnerfed in A20? Why was motherload and experience from filling blocks (indirectly) nerfed?

 

Why do I have to grind countless amounts of quests to gain basic loot and basic experience?

 

I tried zomboid which is unforgiving, but with a few good mods and sandbox it's acceptable. 7 days to die is just not cutting it anymore. Every new version feels like a more grinding and repetitive version of the previous ones.

[BarryTGash]

2 hours ago, Kasad said:

grind

 

Grind is encountered when the amount of unique content < amount of time developers deem is appropriate to 'level up'. I anticipate this will become less of an issue as TFP move to developing more content; A20 already introduced a slew of new POIs which were sorely needed. Quest/mission system will hopefully see the same love in the not so distant future - bandits/npcs in general will hopefully add considerably more diversity (if done well). I'm hoping the drone is a test of a possible follower ai system... guards/sentries and companions could be awesome. Just add food and water to a designated container, designate working hours eg. max 12 and have staggered shifts.

 

Regarding digging/zombie block damage, the damage multiplier they get when zombies > 1 attack the same block needs to go. It makes no sense; the multiplier is already there - it is the number of zombies hitting the same block, with a natural cap dictated by the amount of zombies that can fit in a certain space.

Edited January 7, 2022 by BarryTGash
Illiteracy. (see edit history)

[Kasad]

2 minutes ago, BarryTGash said:

 

Grind is encountered when the amount of unique content < amount of time developers deem is appropriate to 'level up'. I anticipate this will become less of an issue as TFP move to developing more content; A20 already introduced a slew of new POIs which was sorely needed. Quest/mission system will hopefully see the same love in the not so distant future - bandits/npcs in general will hopefully add considerably more diversity (if done well). I'm hoping the drone is a test of a possible follower ai system... guards/sentries and companions could be awesome. Just add food and water to a designated container, designate working hours eg. max 12 and have staggered shifts.

 

Regarding digging/zombie block damage, the damage multiplier they get when zombies > 1 attack the same block needs to go. It makes no sense; the multiplier is already there - it is the number of zombies hitting the same block, with a natural cap dictated by the amount of zombies that can fit in a certain space.

 

The fun pimps added a multiplier in blocks when multiple zombies are in the same space? Was this introduced in A20 as well?

[BarryTGash]

4 minutes ago, Kasad said:

 

The fun pimps added a multiplier in blocks when multiple zombies are in the same space? Was this introduced in A20 as well?

 

No, it's been around for a while - I couldn't tell you when it was introduced. Simple test; metal blue door - 1 zombie will take over a minute (default settings) to get through - I think the default damage is 8 per hit. 2 will take considerably less than half that time. More than that exponentially decreases that time to breach.

Edited January 7, 2022 by BarryTGash (see edit history)

[JCrook1028]

3 hours ago, Kasad said:

Why do I have to grind countless amounts of quests to gain basic loot and basic experience?

You don't. It's that's simple. Basic loot can be found anywhere. Same goes for xp. Now if you're talking about the special quest tier bonuses then yes, you need to do quests to get them.

[Kasad]

16 minutes ago, JCrook1028 said:

You don't. It's that's simple. Basic loot can be found anywhere. Same goes for xp. Now if you're talking about the special quest tier bonuses then yes, you need to do quests to get them.

 

By basic loot I don't mean cloths and water bottles. I mean acid, beakers, schematics for tools, steel parts etc. Do quests even give those? Haven't tried going beyond tier 2 since A18. I found it too boring repeating the same quest over and over again.

How about this: Allow me to unlock the next tier by doing a single quest from the previous tier. I'm veteran enough to at least do tier 4 quests on early levels. I even tried to barricade in a hospital once.

[bloodmoth13]

On 1/6/2022 at 1:50 PM, Sjustus548 said:

I've never felt like I was being told how to play the game.  You can play any way you want to.  Most people I see complain about this are basically saying that they are mad because their favorite way to play the game isn't the "best" way to play.  You can play however you want to but you have to deal with the consequences of choosing to play that way.  

This.

 

You dont have to play optimally, in fact you might find things are better than you thought trying out other styles.

For A20 i made a concious choice to play differently from how i normally would, my first game i played pure perception, my second pure fortitude.

For single player i think int is the best as you end up drowning in coins and ammo from quests, but i found the other playstyles enjoyable too.

 

Just because perception isnt the best (idk if that is even true) doesnt mean it is unplayable.

[pahbi]

TFP has succeeded in creating a game that can be anything to almost anyone, which is a really awesome achievement.

 

While its a hassle trying to figure out how to edit the xml files or make xpath modlets to adjust the game to your play style, once you figure it out, you can do almost anything you want. 

 

 

[Boidster]

2 hours ago, Kasad said:

By basic loot I don't mean cloths and water bottles. I mean acid, beakers, schematics for tools, steel parts etc.

 

Almost by definition, the game does not consider those to be basic loot. They are valuable loot - in high demand by the player for obvious reasons. And so they are also rare (and in the case of books/schematics, scaled based on your lootstage). All of them are available at the trader, or as quest rewards. Subject to RNG of course.

[JCrook1028]

21 hours ago, Kasad said:

I mean acid, beakers, schematics for tools, steel parts etc.

That's not basic loot, at all. Matter of fact a lot of it is intended to be end game loot. So yea, gotta work for it.

[minisith]

21 hours ago, Kasad said:

 

By basic loot I don't mean cloths and water bottles. I mean acid, beakers, schematics for tools, steel parts etc. Do quests even give those? Haven't tried going beyond tier 2 since A18. I found it too boring repeating the same quest over and over again.

How about this: Allow me to unlock the next tier by doing a single quest from the previous tier. I'm veteran enough to at least do tier 4 quests on early levels. I even tried to barricade in a hospital once.

Lol basic loot.   Lmao.  Ur trolling now. Just stop.

[Kasad]

1 hour ago, JCrook1028 said:

That's not basic loot, at all. Matter of fact a lot of it is intended to be end game loot. So yea, gotta work for it.

How are those end game loot again? I thought people consider end game motor and automatic weapon parts...

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, Kasad said:

How are those end game loot again?

End game? Beakers and acid are what gates a chem station.. which is used to fuel your motor tools.

Steel parts, not end game for tools, but still a gating item.

Schematics for tools.. that's the motor tools which you called end game ...?

[Kasad]

8 hours ago, theFlu said:

End game? Beakers and acid are what gates a chem station.. which is used to fuel your motor tools.

Steel parts, not end game for tools, but still a gating item.

Schematics for tools.. that's the motor tools which you called end game ...?

I'm literally quoting a guy mentioning end game loot.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Kasad (see edit history)

[Roland]

I wouldn't call acid, beakers, schematics for weapons and tools, and steel parts endgame loot. But I also wouldn't call them basic loot either. I also wouldn't call them essential loot. You make do with what you can find and adapt to your circumstances.

 

Use the creative menu or beg the server admin if you want things to be deterministic. You can throw out mats to pretend you crafted it or throw out dukes to pretend you bought it. People find all sorts of things fun and what frustrates and bores one person is exactly the thing that challenges and delights someone else. There are currently ways to mitigate the bad luck-- particularly if you are playing single player so use those ways if you aren't having fun and move on. 

 

TFP is constantly working on fine tuning the balance and the rarity of particular items and that will continue.

 

 

[Marinxar]

On 1/7/2022 at 7:31 AM, Stranded_Napkin said:

snip...

 

In some things, he has a point.

 

TFP applied a lot of quick fixes, that don't make a lot of sense.

 

Demolisher

Learn By Doing removal

Farming Plot block

 

These come to mind now, I am sure there are more, but these changes make no practical sense, but drastically changed the way the game can be played if you play vanilla.