A deep appreciation that the pimps aren't afraid to scrap and rebuild a game system

[dex314]

I've played since a11.5 and have seen a lot of changes over the years. Some I liked, some I hated, but what I absolutely love about the pimps is that they are not afraid to scrap an entire system that they worked hard to build because the players and devs felt it wasn't good enough. I just watched some preview videos for a18 and I see the skill system has been redone yet again. I might like it, I might not, but it takes serious dedication to create something new after all the work they've already put into the last few iterations. So, despite my whining about various mechanics, the pimps are absolute studs. Just thought I'd share.

[Scyris]

But this is sadly also why the game hasn't really gone anywhere in years, A18 might be the first time in a loooong time its actually starting to go somewhere, assuming they don't redo the skill system yet again in a19.

[SylenThunder]

But this is sadly also why the game hasn't really gone anywhere in years, A18 might be the first time in a loooong time its actually starting to go somewhere, assuming they don't redo the skill system yet again in a19.

Don't forget that TFP is breaking ground that no other game has ventured across. And even after years in development, none other has attempted. Basically every aspect of the game they are having to build from scratch. They have had a vision on how they want things to work from the beginning, and now some of the systems are finally starting to fall into that idea.

 

A17 was actually the biggest step towards a vision they have been discussing in depth since at least a10. I know there were many struggles about how to implement the restrictions on inventory, and am aware of some of the many processes they considered, but deemed inadequate or over-encumbering. The buff system has been much discussed as well as it's changed over the years.

 

Some of the changes that finally fell into place were due to changes in the Unity core, and some were just then finding a good method for linking different systems together in a way that worked.

 

You guys seem to forget that this is the Alpha phase of development. It's completely acceptable (and expected) that systems will be completely re-worked, trashed, created, changed, ect. This is the nature of the Alpha development phase.

[Khulkhuum]

I am glad TFP decided to put time and effort on features they deem worthy of their time. It would be far less good if they went with what the players wanted, drenching themselves in guilt and forcing themselves to make a game they are not really into. They would quickly lose their motivation and stop working on this game, trying again with a new one.

 

7DTD would be another abandoned product, because there were too many problems, the vision strayed too far away from what was created and/or people felt hopeless for making any good improvements.

 

Don't get me wrong, i don't like some of the changes, but i am patient enough to see where all of this goes to. We have a dedicated Dev team and that's a good sign for the future.

[OldManBrian]

I hated most of their changes in a17, but now it looks like they're course correcting so well and so much that I might not even need any mods in a18. (Other than the CompoPack of course.)

 

I really like that they try things and then aren't afraid to backtrack or try something else when it doesn't pan out. Considering that the game isn't released yet, they are doing exactly what they should be doing to find their feet considering they're pioneering a completely unique gaming experience.

[bitmapman]

But this is sadly also why the game hasn't really gone anywhere in years, A18 might be the first time in a loooong time its actually starting to go somewhere, assuming they don't redo the skill system yet again in a19.

 

Did they really "redo" it for A18? What they've shown looks more like a tweaking than a straight up refactoring to me. It's more like they reorganized it in order to facilitate specialization better, but most of the perks and the way the system works on the whole are pretty much the same as before.

[Katitof]

I've played since a11.5 and have seen a lot of changes over the years. Some I liked, some I hated, but what I absolutely love about the pimps is that they are not afraid to scrap an entire system that they worked hard to build because the players and devs felt it wasn't good enough. I just watched some preview videos for a18 and I see the skill system has been redone yet again. I might like it, I might not, but it takes serious dedication to create something new after all the work they've already put into the last few iterations. So, despite my whining about various mechanics, the pimps are absolute studs. Just thought I'd share.

 

All that means is they never had any idea how they would like the game to be up until now.

Building features update to update is perfectly fine and understandable, scrapping them and making them anew all the time is purest form of lack of direction and long term plan and design.

[Gazz]

Did they really "redo" it for A18? What they've shown looks more like a tweaking than a straight up refactoring to me. It's more like they reorganized it in order to facilitate specialization better, but most of the perks and the way the system works on the whole are pretty much the same as before.

The underlying systems have not changed. This is more of a rebalance, pushing abilities into other buckets.

Plus adding a lot more abilities to flesh out the systems.

[meganoth]

All that means is they never had any idea how they would like the game to be up until now.

Building features update to update is perfectly fine and understandable, scrapping them and making them anew all the time is purest form of lack of direction and long term plan and design.

 

If game design were something you could plan perfectly ahead, abominations like "Fallout 67", "Simcity" or hundreds of other games that don't really work at release would not exist.

 

Your first sentence is absolutely correct. A lot of the details they didn't know and tried to find the best way through experimentation. And "best" doesn't even mean the objectively best, it is just the subjective best they want for their game. For example in their kickstarter they were talking about the player "protecting his farm of chickens" (paraphrased). If they had perfect knowledge what fits and what they can do with the hardware, they probably wouldn't have said this.

 

Do you really think you would have had the knowledge 7 years ago that that feature was not important enough now? Or whether to take LBD or a perk system? Or whether ziplines would fit?

 

In a speech one of the best game developers of the previous century (I think it was Sid Meier talking about "Civilization") was telling the story of how the first Civ just wasn't feeling right for some time in development and they just didn't know what was wrong and how to fix it. They tried a lot of things until someone had the idea to change some speed value a little bit and suddenly it clicked. The game was fun again. Why didn't Sid know this? How come they needed to experiment and just play around with it?

 

You think you are better than the developers of bethesda, EA, or TFP. Are you sure you can live up to that?

[OzHawkeye]

All that means is they never had any idea how they would like the game to be up until now.

Building features update to update is perfectly fine and understandable, scrapping them and making them anew all the time is purest form of lack of direction and long term plan and design.

 

You'd rather they keep a system in place that wasn't doing the job intended for it? Granted, with perfect foresight you could ensure that every system that was started, fulfilled exactly the role it was intended for by the time it was finished, but no-one has perfect foresight.

 

I'm with the OP on this one, maybe the game goes Gold later than it otherwise would have because the Pimps were willing to experiment and re-iterate, but the game will be all the better, in the end, for it.

[Roland]

A lot of studios seem to wait to release their games to Early Access until they only have about a year or two left indev. This means most of the major decisions and possible pathways that could be taken are done and all that is left to do is to polish and add content.

 

Everything we’ve experienced over the last years would’ve been done behind closed doors and A17 would’ve been the first version released— still not ready for gold but pretty much at the point where the game will remain as it is until gold. Most brand new players without any knowledge of previous alphas are loving A17. A18 is even more refined, optimized, looks better, and has tons of new content so it will feel like an update that you get from other Early Access titles.

 

TFP started their Early Access....early.

[Pille]

You'd rather they keep a system in place that wasn't doing the job intended for it? Granted, with perfect foresight you could ensure that every system that was started, fulfilled exactly the role it was intended for by the time it was finished, but no-one has perfect foresight.

 

I don't think you need perfect foresight to avoid never ending rebuilding. Some obviously wonky systems make me wonder why they were implemented in the first place. They could have known better in some cases, even without being precogs. It's almost as if they would have little experience with such large-scale projects. If I didn't know any better, I would even say that 7days is their first big game and that some of the vicissitudes of development are the result of this circumstance. Also, "Wo gehobelt wird, da fallen Spنne" (Good luck translating this german proverb^^).

 

To me rebuilding stuff from scratch is ok as long as the end result doesn't suffer from attitudes like 'oh no 7 days is already x years in development, time to finish at any price'. In such cases, time used for reiterations might have been better invested in refinements of existing systems. If I recall correctly, TFP said they would continue to add feature even after the end of the alpha phase. So the possible loss of time due to scraping and reimplementing features is nothing I am really worried about, unlike other things...

[delukard]

one thing i do miss from A16 are the cone like traps that dismembered the legs from regular zombies.

 

maybe these could come back but instead of dismembering the legs it could have nails coming out where zombies would get stuck.

 

i like the building aspect of this game and love to have more options instead of having to resort to mods.

 

IF im going to have to level up by killing zombies...

 

then i would go play State of decay 2 or dead rising. where IMHO is more fun to be killing zombies.

 

and i just want to shoot zombies then ill go play left for dead and be done with it.

 

the building aspect and setting traps for zombies is fun also.

[hotpoon]

IF im going to have to level up by killing zombies...

then i would go play State of decay 2 or dead rising. where IMHO is more fun to be killing zombies.

and i just want to shoot zombies then ill go play left for dead and be done with it.

the building aspect and setting traps for zombies is fun also.

...Or Dying Light.

The unique selling point of this game is the voxel system without the blocky Minecraft-esque graphics, so I'd agree, I think more focus need to go to the building system. One of the more unique parts of this game is the ability to build a horde base and see how its design and traps hold up. Currently the broken AI that can see through walls and all focus on one block at a time, all but ruins that. If I were the Pimps, fixing that would be priority #1. As you say, there are better games for straight up zombie bashing.

[Wyrda78]

It sucks. Just changing everything every alpha for no reason. How about actually improving the features rather than overhauling the levelling system for the 54th time. The game has been in alpha for far too long already.

[Roland]

...Or Dying Light.

The unique selling point of this game is the voxel system without the blocky Minecraft-esque graphics, so I'd agree, I think more focus need to go to the building system. One of the more unique parts of this game is the ability to build a horde base and see how its design and traps hold up. Currently the broken AI that can see through walls and all focus on one block at a time, all but ruins that. If I were the Pimps, fixing that would be priority #1. As you say, there are better games for straight up zombie bashing.

 

Huh....your description seems more like 17.0 and 17.1. It seems much less pronounced in 17.4 but maybe you feel they didn’t go far enough in having random zombies abandon pathways instead of all of them following the same one.

[SylenThunder]

It sucks. Just changing everything every alpha for no reason. How about actually improving the features rather than overhauling the levelling system for the 54th time. The game has been in alpha for far too long already.

Actually, it's been in Alpha for a perfectly normal amount of time. AAA studios with teams of several hundred developers will spen on average 5-7 years in Alpha on a fresh title that isn't copying core code and assets from something else.

 

The difference....

With 7 Days you've been able to be a part of it from Day 1. With other games, you don't get to join in until they are much closer to Beta, or after the second Beta stage.

 

So it may seem that 7 Days has been in development for too long, but it actually hasn't. You're seeing stages of development that are typically hidden from the public eyes where systems are tested and re-designed over and over until they fit what the developer is looking to achieve. Some systems were re-designed because of changes to updates in the game engine that allowed for further expansion than the previous system did.

[Wyrda78]

Actually, it's been in Alpha for a perfectly normal amount of time. AAA studios with teams of several hundred developers will spen on average 5-7 years in Alpha on a fresh title that isn't copying core code and assets from something else.

 

The difference....

With 7 Days you've been able to be a part of it from Day 1. With other games, you don't get to join in until they are much closer to Beta, or after the second Beta stage.

 

So it may seem that 7 Days has been in development for too long, but it actually hasn't. You're seeing stages of development that are typically hidden from the public eyes where systems are tested and re-designed over and over until they fit what the developer is looking to achieve. Some systems were re-designed because of changes to updates in the game engine that allowed for further expansion than the previous system did.

 

Completely false. AAA games can be made in a few years. Redesigning game features over and over again is not part of normal game design. It's called development hell. It is indicative of lack of leadership and vision in the design studio. They can't decide what features to put in the game, so they're making it up as they go along and seeing what works. The features of the game should be decided before labour time is wasted on creating them. Sometimes redesign is necessary but not to this extent.

 

It is quite painful to see the developers flop around ineffectually. It's funny to see people looking at the failures of the dev team and praising for them. There is always a group of company fan boys on every forum.

[Roland]

Completely false. AAA games can be made in a few years.

 

Could you give some examples that aren't sequels or redesigns of an existing IP?

 

Redesigning game features over and over again is not part of normal game design. It's called development hell. It is indicative of lack of leadership and vision in the design studio. They can't decide what features to put in the game, so they're making it up as they go along and seeing what works. The features of the game should be decided before labour time is wasted on creating them. Sometimes redesign is necessary but not to this extent.

 

What exactly do you see in the game that has been completely redesigned over and over again?

 

It is quite painful to see the developers flop around ineffectually. It's funny to see people looking at the failures of the dev team and praising for them. There is always a group of company fan boys on every forum.

 

Why follow something that is painful for you? Anyone with a different perspective than you gets labeled in a way that you can just dismiss what they have to say out of hand without really considering it? Do you have evidence to bolster your claims instead of trying to bolster your perspective by tearing down opposition through name calling?

 

 

I know they have had an overall general goal for the features they want but have been experimenting with the details. For example, they always wanted player progression but they have experimented with the type of progression and the balancing and organization of abilities within that progression. They have never removed progression completely and then re-implemented it. Instead they have applied it in different ways.

 

They did flounder in regards to books and schematics but ironically that came from doggedly sticking to their original plan to phase books out in favor of perks. It was only during the playtesting of A17 by the larger customer base that they acknowledged that for a large majority the removal of books and schematics hurt exploration. They weren't focused on exploration in regards to books. They were focused on player progression and they wanted perks for that and it created a sort of blindspot for the usefulness of books beyond player progression. So in A18 they are bringing books back in a big way but not because they couldn't make up their minds and didn't have any idea what they wanted to do.

 

They are certainly within their rights to tinker with their game and as long as they have the funds to keep the project moving forward to completion, they aren't in development hell. Development hell is more than just floundering design-wise. It is also floundering budget-wise. They are still well within budget to complete the game to the standards they want.

[Guppycur]

I don't see the issue. Pimps could have shoved some features in a16 and said "done". Instead they're trying new stuff, seeing what works, scrapping stuff that doesn't and have plans to add even more stuff they don't have to.

 

...why do people want the development to end so badly?

 

Short dev time = fewer polished features and some half assedness

 

Long dev time = more polished features that are tested tried and true

 

...if you want a shorter dev time, load a17 and freeze it there.

[hotpoon]

Huh....your description seems more like 17.0 and 17.1. It seems much less pronounced in 17.4 but maybe you feel they didn’t go far enough in having random zombies abandon pathways instead of all of them following the same one.

 

I gave up because of the overly clever AI in 17.2 when I realised the z's were making real time decisions of which block to all smack on while I was putting up barb wire inside my base, that they shouldn't have been able to see, or want to avoid. I've been keeping an eye on the forum and reading patch notes, and as far as I can see, it hasn't been addressed. I hope I'm wrong.

[Guppycur]

We're doing a mostly vanilla a17.4 run for the first time, but we are only on day 3 or so... but it feels better than the vanilla 17.1 we did, that's for sure. Could be the custom map.

 

Anyway, I doubt we are going to build a base, there are simply too many poi options to work with...

 

My point? 17.4 does play better than what I remember of 17.1.

[Linkhead2]

I am glad TFP decided to put time and effort on features they deem worthy of their time. It would be far less good if they went with what the players wanted, drenching themselves in guilt and forcing themselves to make a game they are not really into. They would quickly lose their motivation and stop working on this game, trying again with a new one.

 

7DTD would be another abandoned product, because there were too many problems, the vision strayed too far away from what was created and/or people felt hopeless for making any good improvements.

 

Don't get me wrong, i don't like some of the changes, but i am patient enough to see where all of this goes to. We have a dedicated Dev team and that's a good sign for the future.

 

Id like to point out that many games have listened to fans and become incredibly succesful from it. You can take onboard Ideas that FTP and the Consumers agree with and then roll with it. The issue lies in the sentance, they arent. I mean from A16 to A17, the sheer amount of dislikes and brigades were mainly caused by poor choices and lack of community engagement. They de-railed themselves from their original product.

 

Its more soul crushing to hear your fans scream "we dont want it" than to have a game no one likes.

[Kirtonos]

Could you give some examples that aren't sequels or redesigns of an existing IP?

 

Original World of Warcraft was a little over 4 years from start to release in Nov 2004. Of those 4 years, about 2 years of it was friends & family alpha, closed beta, and open beta.

[Morloc]

Original World of Warcraft was a little over 4 years from start to release in Nov 2004. Of those 4 years, about 2 years of it was friends & family alpha, closed beta, and open beta.

 

/cough Brad McQuaid /cough.

 

 

 

-Morloc