Trankitas Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Some people mistake me being a ♥♥♥♥, but would thank me later when they get their industrial forge. I only get rude when people keep arguing and beating a dead Orse. I see what you did there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prisma501 Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 But we're not looking for authority. We're looking to have constructive discussions; yet there mostly ain't none because after 3 posts of the same subject, madmole gets defensive and one (or several) of the following things happen : - he becomes condescending, implying that we're not CEOs of big companies and thus can't even try to argue with him on selected game design decisions. Guess what, I'm no baker but I know when the bread I buy isn't good. - he invokes false / bad faith arguments, like "your memory is deceptive, you would clear the town once and it would be free for 4 days"... well, like someone stated, instant respawns in the cities avoided that cheese. Pretty funny that the main argument is bad memory when you don't remember the core of how cities used to work back then. - the subject becomes offtopic Just because we're not professionnal game designers doesn't mean we can't spot something fishy. Regarding the spear throw/pickup on point blank range, I even stated I wasn't talking balance but purely animations/mechanics. "It might look cheesy, but this is your TIER 3 QUALITY 6 MODDED spear we are talking about." was the counter-argument, but that doesn't even scratch the surface of the problem. I'm not talking damage, i'm talking visuals. It could have been a T1Q1 spear, the mechanics are the same. I'm not offended by the way, I understand he knows more things than we do regarding roadmap and stuff, but let's not forget history either. Back when A17 came out the community came back with a lot of gripes regarding the shift of gameplay towards perk-management instead of looting, and it was the same condescending attitude back then. "You're stuck in the past, this is so much better, yada yada". 6 months forward the guy in charge back then got fired and most of the current alpha is about fixing what was lacking in the previous one. Welp, nothing left to do but wait for A18 now. I only hope feedback and discussions will be encouraged and not dismissed with another "our job is to design games, we know better" kind of line. Where do constructive discussions end? Maybe when the owner (and dev/designer) of the company that creates the game, gives an opinion back and says its his vision or good design? Or when you (or any non dev/owner/designer) says its over? Can you imagine that 3 posts allready is way to much when the owner said how he likes/wants(!) it to be? To many players say they are giving constructive critisism but actually want only one thing: to be right. I would be blunt also if someone is too stubbern to even be able to accept that his/her voice is heard and nothing is going to be done with that sound. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted October 1, 2019 Author Share Posted October 1, 2019 I'm talking about "appeal to authority" as well and there is only one authority when it comes to gameplay decisions for this game and that is being one of the developers for the game. Gazz used to not have that authority but now he does. Madmole didn't have that authority for Skyrim but he has it for this game. The big advantage modders have over developers is that they don't have to worry about priorities, balance, or standards to the level that the designers of the game do. They can add whatever they want as early as they wish and with questionable quality and are forgiven because people know it is a mod of a game in alpha without full mod support anyway. It isn't really an issue of TFP playing ketchup as you put it. It is an issue of TFP developing the game according to their priorities and meeting their standards of performance and playability whereas modders don't have any of those constraints. A developer has access to the roadmap and knows the future plans and how they want all systems to work together. That is the developer's advantage over a modder who adds this piece or that piece to the game. That is what gives them authority that a modder cannot hope to attain unless they are elevated to the status of a developer. Ask Gazz what he had to work with then vs what he has access to now. So I respect modders for what they do with the limited resources they have but I also am honest enough to admit that they do their things mostly blind to the big picture of the game since they aren't privy. And in that respect I respectfully disagree with your assertion that modders like Jax and Guppy should have equal say or have a tone to their posts that they have equal authority to bandy ideas and tell a developer that he is wrong. Of course, they can share their opinion that Madmole is wrong. But it isn't any kind of authority that anyone else should appeal to or consider equal to that of a developer. Really, I can't believe any of this needs to be said. I get that people feel they have a strong internet relationship with Jax and Guppy and didn't like Madmole putting them in their place in such a blunt manner. Madmole, himself, stated that it wasn't out of anger or being mean. He was showing that professionally there is a world of difference between a modder and a developer. It's clear though that modders have their own loyal fans ready to pick up pitchforks on their behalf. It's not really needed. Just accept the truth that modders don't rise to the same level as developers as authorities on game design for the games they work on. Look at it this way, if Madmole decided that he needed to mod Fallout 76 in order to make it playable for his own sensibilities and he posted on the official forum for that game, he would not have the same authority as the developers for Fallout 76 even though he is a developer for this game. Sure they could meet up at E3 and talk shop about developing in general and swap stories and cautionary tales, but on the topic of Fallout 76 they would be developers and he would just be a modder. Golf clap. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombuild Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 ....people keep arguing and beating a dead Orse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MajorMunchy Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 OI! that's not nice, don't trigger me with football, you can get f***d up for saying that in Uruguay lol. Pd: We export some of the best football players the world has ever seen, being 3 million people. Do the math. EDIT: I'M SO ♥♥♥♥ING TRIGGERED ♥♥♥♥ YOU DaVEGA. (I love you) Soccer* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beHypE Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Where do constructive discussions end? Maybe when the owner (and dev/designer) of the company that creates the game, gives an opinion back and says its his vision or good design? Or when you (or any non dev/owner/designer) says its over? Can you imagine that 3 posts allready is way to much when the owner said how he likes/wants(!) it to be? To many players say they are giving constructive critisism but actually want only one thing: to be right. I would be blunt also if someone is too stubbern to even be able to accept that his/her voice is heard and nothing is going to be done with that sound. Cheers I'm not arguiing to be right, I'm arguiing because I think I am. I'm very open minded regarding the fact madmole is a way better game designer than me in almost all aspects, given it's not my job, but then again the one thing I absolutely HATE is when someone in lack of proper arguments either invokes some shady ones OR just tells me I'm wrong because he's overall more qualified and drops the mic. That is NOT an argument, that's just ending a discussion with authority because you can't counter argument properly. If all we're allowed to do is express something and drop it instantly, we might aswell just quit doing so. There's very little chance something gets changed after a lengthy, healthy discussion with one of us, I don't expect a single good thing coming out of a random one-liner that I don't back up with some thoughts and arguments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted October 1, 2019 Author Share Posted October 1, 2019 Oh, you just need a Madmole translator. The first statement is exactly what he was saying. In fact, I think he did make a statement almost like the first before he finally made the statement more like the second when those adorable modders ignored the first in the zeal and error of their thinking that they were colleagues. Now I will agree that customer service speech is not Madmole's strong suit. He is blunt and is not concerned at all with bruising someone's ego. Some have a desire that he not interact directly but hire a public relations front man who can disseminate all of his talking points with a plastic smile and hearty handshake for all. But that pool of people is small, I'm guessing. Yep, instead of reading my courtious "sorry but this is a bad idea for these reasons" post, and not seeing the dead horse beat, and not even knowing what it was all about, lets get the pitchforks out, mole's a ♥♥♥♥. I can be, I don't want to be, and I won't be unless you push those buttons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam the Waster Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 I fight for the stuff we really need like an industrial forge. Do you want to lose that to a stupid tire machine? So I stomp on crap ideas to protect where the game needs to go, and I'm passionate about the game, so I get heated when bad ideas that take away from what we really need get mentioned. that is great to hear from a developer! and what i get from this is that ideas and suggestions are fine, great even but some needs to be called out. (emitingly i also talked about the tires thing but i did some research and yep he was right.) (and have i came up with crap ideas? you bet your ass i did which is most of them. but i try to come up with ideas to try to inspire. because i want to be a game artist when i grow up but since im nowhere close to that stage yet i just try to give ideas and support others with good ideas) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantum Blue Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Where do constructive discussions end? Maybe when the owner (and dev/designer) of the company that creates the game, gives an opinion back and says its his vision or good design? Or when you (or any non dev/owner/designer) says its over? Can you imagine that 3 posts allready is way to much when the owner said how he likes/wants(!) it to be? To many players say they are giving constructive critisism but actually want only one thing: to be right. I would be blunt also if someone is too stubbern to even be able to accept that his/her voice is heard and nothing is going to be done with that sound. Cheers Full on agreement. Seen it way too many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannedSmeef Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Yep, instead of reading my courtious "sorry but this is a bad idea for these reasons" post, and not seeing the dead horse beat, and not even knowing what it was all about, lets get the pitchforks out, mole's a ♥♥♥♥. I can be, I don't want to be, and I won't be unless you push those buttons. Hmm can we get a sawmill workbench? Doesn't make logical sense to make planks with your bear hands. Yeah it would be extremely inconvenient and a waste of dev time but hey, at least it would line up with reality I don't understand this adversity to the tire recipe. Like who cares. Acid and coal? Sure, it makes a tire, why does it matter specifically how it was crafted? Do you want a minibike or not? The air compressing station idea is not good at all, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechanicalLens Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 He did comment, then he commented again, and again and I had enough. Saying the same bad argument over and over doesn't turn it into a good argument. So stop peasant, you don't know what you are talking about and I've had enough. This is my castle and there will be order in the court. I listened, I gave my professional opinion as a courtesy so he can sharpen his own game design skills, and then got disrespected when he kept beating the dead hOrse. I like Guppy, he's a great guy who supports our game, but that doesn't make him right. Gating wheel crafting even further would be a bad design decision. The method we create them now is perfectly acceptable, and grounded in reality. I wanted more uses for Acid, and its used to make tires, so what is wrong with that? Beats making a new workstation that takes away from having a proper industrial forge down the road. Beats taking dev time away from making bandits. @madmole An acid trap of sorts, maybe? (One that expels acid as a weapon - perhaps as a burning, flesh-eating chemical spray - and it takes several acid to fuel it, like gas into a vehicle/generator. Or it could act as a late-game form of barbed wire, temporarily blinding and stunning zombies and slowing them down a considerable amount.) *Shrugs* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombuild Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 An acid trap as a weapon - perhaps as a burning, flesh-eating chemical spray ... Zombie skeletons lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gazz Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 I don't understand this adversity to the tire recipe. Like who cares. Acid and coal? Sure, it makes a tire, why does it matter specifically how it was crafted? Do you want a minibike or not? The air compressing station idea is not good at all, sorry. We'll need the air compression station for the Aquazom DLC, just not right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam the Waster Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Hmm can we get a sawmill workbench? Doesn't make logical sense to make planks with your bear hands. Yeah it would be extremely inconvenient and a waste of dev time but hey, at least it would line up with reality I don't understand this adversity to the tire recipe. Like who cares. Acid and coal? Sure, it makes a tire, why does it matter specifically how it was crafted? Do you want a minibike or not? The air compressing station idea is not good at all, sorry. yeah the saw table is kinda not handy but i have some ideas for it. 1 :it could be used to craft more furniture like items insead of the wood buildings.or sharp sticks lol 2: it could be a mod for the workbench to the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MechanicalLens Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Zombie skeletons lol I just made it sound a lot like Windex. Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam the Waster Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Zombie skeletons lol i would prefer there a makeshift gun that can shoot blobs of acid and melts zombies a acid grenade or my favorite thermint to just melt zombies to the bone and to melt through armored enemies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted October 1, 2019 Author Share Posted October 1, 2019 On topic, I decided after my first horde night to spend my points primarily in intellect and try that build. The scrap turret is amazing fun. It only targets hostiles so you can be in its firing arc and whacking zeds while the turret is firing at them. It's like having a partner with you-- a partner that the zeds ignore btw always only targeting you which you can use to great and fun advantage. And no matter who gets the killing shot between you and the turret you always get the xp for the kill. Love it and I'm not even perked into them yet. Can't wait until I can have more than one active at once and set up crossfires and mini kill corridors within POI's I'm exploring. Yes INT will be my next play through, they are fun. I take them on dig quests to watch my back because some wandering horde always comes when I'm doing a simple dig quest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted October 1, 2019 Author Share Posted October 1, 2019 One more spelling mistake found. The foregrip mod reads, "Improves handling and aming accuracy"; aming, not aiming. Thanks but its fixed already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam the Waster Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Yes INT will be my next play through, they are fun. I take them on dig quests to watch my back because some wandering horde always comes when I'm doing a simple dig quest. iv died by that so many times thats why i stay away from treasure quest lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted October 1, 2019 Author Share Posted October 1, 2019 this is the feedback I have been waiting for. what tree is tool making under? int for mechanized ones I know Strength: Miner 69r. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CannedSmeef Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 yeah the saw table is kinda not handy but i have some ideas for it. 1 :it could be used to craft more furniture like items insead of the wood buildings.or sharp sticks lol 2: it could be a mod for the workbench to the same thing. We already have that in the game, it's pretty much what you described Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amaranth Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Devs trying to get a feel for the community's desires and opinions is extremely important but that's not what's happening here. This isn't a poll or even a pseudo poll (like reddit upvotes), this is a debate with 1 or 2 people over design decisions, meaning that this isn't necessarily what anyone wants. As an example, imo and my experience in playing with my friends and family, no one wants to deal with this tire thing. Who wants tires to be gated behind some unnecessary process or a recipe with new one time use items before they can finally make a vehicle and stop having to run everywhere? I have my criticisms with the game, we all do, no game is perfect. But when it goes back and forth a couple times and the dev makes it clear they disagree with your design choice/opinion, that's the time to stop unless it is clear you hold the community's opinion and there are many others who agree. That's not white knighting the devs or disparaging the modders just because of 1 design choice These are the forums so naturally there will be more hardcore and dedicated players here, but if you held a poll right now I get the feeling even the hardcore players wouldn't want it, much less the millions of others who play this game Now let's please stop talking about this lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam the Waster Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 We already have that in the game, it's pretty much what you described look the saw mill i have no ideas for even tho i have so many ideas running tho my. that if i put them all in it would crash the forums . and the admins wound nuke me and i would say that you could uses it to dismantle stuff like example: a level 1 ak that near broken you would get 2 springs , 1 steel , 3 mechanical parts and 2 scrap polymer. but that could be just for the work bench Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmole Posted October 1, 2019 Author Share Posted October 1, 2019 Just want to say that everyone can acquire white knights. Devs, modders moderators etc. You dont need 500,000 downloads and a booth at e3 to acquire that (although that 500,000 quip gave me a good chuckle) but being a dev doesn't make you right every time. There are highways paved with the tombstones of former devs who thought they knew their stuff and wound up failing. There is one thing that always bugged me and that is the fact that conversations here between modders and devs always end up with insults. Its usually adversarial or dismissive for some odd reason. I have never seen that type of interaction on any other gaming forum or discord. Most times devs are extremely open to chatting it up with modders. Here we have a rule that they cant even be discussed outside of the appropriate area of the forum. I've told people how to achieve what they wanted to do in xml for their mod countless times. But for the most part mods just get in the way of bug reports (false bug because of a mod installed) and me answering questions about 18, which is the only reason I'm here, so I'd prefer mods be discussed where they belong, in the mod forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quyxkh Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 well you have the choice to totally "skip" screamers and their digging: 4 walls + 1 hole acting as a door + 1 turrent inside, you dont even need a hacth to block the way down to your base, they will look after the path of less resistance wich is the hole in the wallonce they cross the door bye bye. Or if you want to be cheap just double surround your base with wooden spikes, 1 spike kills a screamer, your problem is that you are trying to shut yourself up so hard that the path of less resistance for them is digging Yah, it's like nobody here has ever even watched The Seven Samurai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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